126 réponses à ce sujet

[jimmyjoefro]

Major Truth wrote...

jimmyjoefro wrote...

The SB is not inherently renegade. All the SB is is an information dealer, and a very powerful one at that. Liara can very well use her resources and power as the SB for beneficial purposes.

I disagree. The shadow broker does not take sides no matter what the moral consequences. It opperates by using fear, intimidation and bribery. Its information is sold to the highest bidder regardless of who that is. The SB uses information gathered to further themselves and their influence

That is inherently renegade

The question is this:

Did Liara become the SB in order to help defeat the Reapers

or

Did Liara become the SB to further her own interests, one of them being the defeat of the Reapers

No, the position as Shadow Broker is not inherently renegade.  The people that are attracted to that kind of power usually end up being that way, but that isn't really Liara as we know her.  Whoever is the Shadow Broker has a say in what to do with the information they have and the power they possess.  

The Shadow Broker isn't a job with specific protocol or rules regarding how and who to sell information to. Whoever is the Shadow Broker sets the rules.  Liara can very easily decide to not sell Salarian military secrets to the Krogan if she wanted. She could buy dangerous information just to keep it out of the wrong hands.  She has moral and ethical standards. She isn't cold.  I can see Liara not being the same kind of Shadow Broker as the last.

Liara got into information because the Shadow Broker tried to sell Shepard to the Collector's and had Feron.   I don't think it was ever her intent to become the Shadow Broker, just to get revenge for Shepard and Feron. She pretty much fell into it.

Modifié par jimmyjoefro, 16 septembre 2010 - 04:43 .

[FlyinElk212]

Lyrandori wrote...
If Liara's main "purpose" is the sole reason that keeps her away from tempation too hard to resist (let's face it, Liara is darker now, no one could deny it or try to excuse it, she's just not the same and she tells that to Shepard in the DLC, that they both - according to her - are now different persons) is no more (Reapers) then I'm having a very bad taste in my mouth of some sort of serious conflict between her, her actions (Liara having conflicts of mind and thoughts with herself, not knowing what to do or knowing she can't go back anymore, and so on) and Shepard, that Liara could potentially (or on purpose, that would be the extreme, although a possible one) put in danger thousands, millions if not billions of lives, and "danger" here doesn't necessarily mean that Liara will send armies to "innocent" worlds and wipe out life, that's not what I mean, I guess it's almost alegorical, but what I mean is that once the Reapers are gone only two things could happen, she uses the Shadow Broker's (now her own) intel and resources (agents, influence, funds, etc.) for the "good" and "justice" (as much as possible anyway, I wouldn't see her turning into an angel either), or she completely blows up the little that's left of her of virtuous thoughts and principles, and falls, corrupted by the power she now has in her hands.

That was the longest sentence I've ever read in my life. Ever. Please use periods.

When it comes to Liara becoming a future threat, I find it hard to believe that it will happen during Shepard's storyline. She's not stupid: she realizes that the Reapers are a galatic-wide threat and need to be stopped, before anything else. She's willing to help out Shepard in anyway she can after everything he's done for her- saving her on Therum, attempting to save her Mother, finding and killing the Shadow Broker, etc.

Her willingness to help Shepard is evident in the cabin talk you have with her at the end of the DLC: no matter what options you choose, Liara remains entirely supportive of you, be it a romantic or friendly support. She's willing to be whatever you need her to be, and truly cares for Shepard and his cause (evident by her asking Shep how HE feels). She is a true friend/love. I find it hard to believe she'll become a future threat to Shep.

In game's beyond Shepard's story, maybe. But it's too farfetched to conceive now.

[DaringMoosejaw]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Meh, the SB himself was never an actual threat to Shepard, no reason why your BFF Liara would be once she became the SB.

(I mean assuming a normal world where you don't see a corpse and think, I HAVE TO SAVE HIM/IT!)

Hell you only killed him because Liara wanted you to.

Forgot about Wilson, I guess?

[Whatever42]

jimmyjoefro wrote...
No, the position as Shadow Broker is not inherently renegade.  The people that are attracted to that kind of power usually end up being that way, but that isn't really Liara as we know her.  Whoever is the Shadow Broker has a say in what to do with the information they have and the power they possess.  

The Shadow Broker isn't a job with specific protocol or rules regarding how and who to sell information to. Whoever is the Shadow Broker sets the rules.  Liara can very easily decide to not sell Salarian military secrets to the Krogan if she wanted. She could buy dangerous information just to keep it out of the wrong hands.  She has moral and ethical standards. She isn't cold.  I can see Liara not being the same kind of Shadow Broker as the last.

Liara got into information because the Shadow Broker tried to sell Shepard to the Collector's and had Feron.   I don't think it was ever her intent to become the Shadow Broker, just to get revenge for Shepard and Feron. She pretty much fell into it.

We saw how Liara dealt with customers who did not want to pay. We saw how she dealt with a source that was in danger. We saw how the power of information thrilled her. She will be very much like the previous Shadow Brokers.

That is not to say she is evil. The Shadow Broker valued stability. She wouldn't sell the genophage cure to the Krogan because that would upset the balance. The Shadow Broker very much values the current balance because it is profitable and secure. However, the Shadow Broker will act ruthless to perserve power, maintain sources, secure exclusivity, and support balance. Liara has shown that she has that ruthlessness.

[Major Truth]

jimmyjoefro wrote...


No, the position as Shadow Broker is not inherently renegade.  The people that are attracted to that kind of power usually end up being that way, but that isn't really Liara as we know her.  Whoever is the Shadow Broker has a say in what to do with the information they have and the power they possess.  

The Shadow Broker isn't a job with specific protocol or rules regarding how and who to sell information to. Whoever is the Shadow Broker sets the rules.  Liara can very easily decide to not sell Salarian military secrets to the Krogan if she wanted. She could buy dangerous information just to keep it out of the wrong hands.  She has moral and ethical standards. She isn't cold.  I can see Liara not being the same kind of Shadow Broker as the last.

Liara got into information because the Shadow Broker tried to sell Shepard to the Collector's and had Feron.   I don't think it was ever her intent to become the Shadow Broker, just to get revenge for Shepard and Feron. She pretty much fell into it.

The shadow brokers neutrality is what keeps him/her a resource in the galaxy. They are allowed to opperate under the context that information is available to the highest bidder. The SB is a resource to galactic governments and civilizations. If the SB were to start selecting who gets what infom they stop becoming a resource and become a threat

[starwarschewy]

I. For one don't think she could be a threat to shep. In three

[GnusmasTHX]

DaringMoosejaw wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Meh, the SB himself was never an actual threat to Shepard, no reason why your BFF Liara would be once she became the SB.

(I mean assuming a normal world where you don't see a corpse and think, I HAVE TO SAVE HIM/IT!)

Hell you only killed him because Liara wanted you to.

Forgot about Wilson, I guess?

Well, we could all agree Wilson is hardly a threat, but that's one. The main reason you go after the SB is Liara, though. (And the odd peculiarity that you can revive people from the dead in ME, so the struggle over a corpse becomes much more significant.)

Btw does it say if Wilson's main objective was to kill Shepard? I figure sabotaging the project, or even letting it finish, and then using the gun conveniently placed three steps away from him would've cut it.

[jimmyjoefro]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

We saw how Liara dealt with customers who did not want to pay. We saw how she dealt with a source that was in danger. We saw how the power of information thrilled her. She will be very much like the previous Shadow Brokers.

That is not to say she is evil. The Shadow Broker valued stability. She wouldn't sell the genophage cure to the Krogan because that would upset the balance. The Shadow Broker very much values the current balance because it is profitable and secure. However, the Shadow Broker will act ruthless to perserve power, maintain sources, secure exclusivity, and support balance. Liara has shown that she has that ruthlessness.

I believe Liara acted the way she did because she was intently trying to get her revenge.  I don't see what motivation she would have to be that way as the Shadow Broker.  

Being the Shadow Broker has benefits, such as no one knowing who you are, where you are, or whether you have you hand in something at all.  People will generally suspect you have your hand in everything, but they don't have much proof.  The Shadow Broker hardly ever acts directly.

If the Krogan got their hands on Salarian military information, the Salarian's could suspect the Shadow Broker, but they'd have no proof and no way of finding him/her.  They'd most likely pin it as a leak and punish someone from within. 

The Shadow Broker has upset people before, so lets not act like he was never afraid to sell anything to anyone.  Hell, he was going to sell Shepard to the damn Collectors. It was sell to the highest bidder, whoever they may be didn't really matter.  I just can't see Liara being that way.

[jimmyjoefro]

Major Truth wrote...

jimmyjoefro wrote...


No, the position as Shadow Broker is not inherently renegade.  The people that are attracted to that kind of power usually end up being that way, but that isn't really Liara as we know her.  Whoever is the Shadow Broker has a say in what to do with the information they have and the power they possess.  

The Shadow Broker isn't a job with specific protocol or rules regarding how and who to sell information to. Whoever is the Shadow Broker sets the rules.  Liara can very easily decide to not sell Salarian military secrets to the Krogan if she wanted. She could buy dangerous information just to keep it out of the wrong hands.  She has moral and ethical standards. She isn't cold.  I can see Liara not being the same kind of Shadow Broker as the last.

Liara got into information because the Shadow Broker tried to sell Shepard to the Collector's and had Feron.   I don't think it was ever her intent to become the Shadow Broker, just to get revenge for Shepard and Feron. She pretty much fell into it.

The shadow brokers neutrality is what keeps him/her a resource in the galaxy. They are allowed to opperate under the context that information is available to the highest bidder. The SB is a resource to galactic governments and civilizations. If the SB were to start selecting who gets what infom they stop becoming a resource and become a threat

Point taken, but I would say that the Shadow Broker's business dealings are not exactly public knowledge.  If Liara decided to buy information to keep it out of the wrong hands or if she were to decide to not sell, no one would know the difference.  

[Whatever42]

jimmyjoefro wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

We saw how Liara dealt with customers who did not want to pay. We saw how she dealt with a source that was in danger. We saw how the power of information thrilled her. She will be very much like the previous Shadow Brokers.

That is not to say she is evil. The Shadow Broker valued stability. She wouldn't sell the genophage cure to the Krogan because that would upset the balance. The Shadow Broker very much values the current balance because it is profitable and secure. However, the Shadow Broker will act ruthless to perserve power, maintain sources, secure exclusivity, and support balance. Liara has shown that she has that ruthlessness.

I believe Liara acted the way she did because she was intently trying to get her revenge.  I don't see what motivation she would have to be that way as the Shadow Broker.  

Being the Shadow Broker has benefits, such as no one knowing who you are, where you are, or whether you have you hand in something at all.  People will generally suspect you have your hand in everything, but they don't have much proof.  The Shadow Broker hardly ever acts directly.

If the Krogan got their hands on Salarian military information, the Salarian's could suspect the Shadow Broker, but they'd have no proof and no way of finding him/her.  They'd most likely pin it as a leak and punish someone from within. 

The Shadow Broker has upset people before, so lets not act like he was never afraid to sell anything to anyone.  Hell, he was going to sell Shepard to the damn Collectors. It was sell to the highest bidder, whoever they may be didn't really matter.  I just can't see Liara being that way.

Two years of thinking like that changes people. So I don't know what she would be capable of today and what would motivate her do to that. I suspect we will see her act equally as ruthlessly to stop the Reapers. After that, she gets addicted to the power.

And SB is fine upsetting people but in ME1 they talked about how nothing he does upsets the system. He is always playing both sides against the middle so everything remains stable. If he sold a cure to the Krogan, he would sell data to the Salarians to allow them to overcome it.

As to the Collectors, that was the SB trying to preserve himself for the coming of the Reapers. Pure self-interest, which is what the SB is all about.

I think the entire question comes down to will Liara stay ruthless just to retain power and control, as opposed to revenge and saving the galaxy. I think she will.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, come to think of it, this could be really interesting, depending on just how far Liara falls. My Shepard certainly wouldn't let her do so easily, but... Diana compromised her principles a bit to help steal data for Liara on Ilium, but she wouldn't sacrifice who she was for her.

[earthbornFemShep]

I can't see Liara being a threat. She would never help the Reapers. Though I can see her not always going along with Shepard, I doubt the two of them would ever do anything to harm one another. Their dynamic is one of friendship and camaraderie. Even if their relations soured, they would not lose that respect for one another.



If anything, my renegade Shepard would probably make the first strike... and since I would not let that happen... it won't.

[tonnactus]

Major Truth wrote...


Liara giving the orders instead of taking them? -

Orders.No,leads...
Better from her then the illusive men and i learned that a lot of players like "urgency".

[D.Sharrah]

I think that one of the possible alternatives that no one seems to have dsicussed yet...is that if the SB was truly intent on stopping the Reapers, then perhaps Wilson's purpose was to make sure the project was completed and then at the right time deliver Shepard to the SB rather than to Timmy.

The intel center is just too well set-up to be a base of operations (this could just be a "bridiging device") - I think that it can also be interperted, that as an alternative to working with Cerebrus, that Shepard could have completed the ME 2 events as an agent of the SB.

[tonnactus]

jimmyjoefro wrote...


No, the position as Shadow Broker is not inherently renegade. 

The order to kill fist was what?

[Xilizhra]

D.Sharrah wrote...

I think that one of the possible alternatives that no one seems to have dsicussed yet...is that if the SB was truly intent on stopping the Reapers, then perhaps Wilson's purpose was to make sure the project was completed and then at the right time deliver Shepard to the SB rather than to Timmy.
The intel center is just too well set-up to be a base of operations (this could just be a "bridiging device") - I think that it can also be interperted, that as an alternative to working with Cerebrus, that Shepard could have completed the ME 2 events as an agent of the SB.

Now this... this is a major AU story seed. I'll credit you if I write it, of course.

[Eldan Varen]

The way I see it, the Shadow Broker isn't just one person anymore. It's Liara AND Shepard. They worked together to take over the Broker's network/business. Liara also says "...it's all ours." And Shepard says "If you are in over your head, WE could just crash this thing and walk away.".

Liara may be the mind behind the gathering and cataloguing of information, but Shepard is the one who manipulates the galaxy with it. Of course, both probably have their hands in either to some extent. Liara directing some events, and Shepard gathering intel in the field... Somewhat like a symbiosis. In my opinion, this grants their relationship additional depth (especially when it's a romantic one).

And when the reapers are finally defeated, they will continue to support each other/work together. That's my Shepards intention.

Reminds me a bit of the "evil" KotOR ending, with Revan and Bastila. Just in a good way.

Modifié par Eldan Varen, 16 septembre 2010 - 06:07 .

[Kenshen]

You could already see how the power was affecting her. She says with what she now knows she could start a war in 5 mins. Yeah that sounds like someone that will only use that info for good. I can totally see her becoming someone Shepard will have to deal with but not in ME3. However now I don't want her part of my team in 3 and really hope she isn't forced on us but she probably will be.

[tonnactus]

aryon69 wrote...
She says with what she now knows she could start a war in 5 mins.

And? Its just a fact stated, nothing more.

[AngryFrozenWater]

tonnactus wrote...

aryon69 wrote...
She says with what she now knows she could start a war in 5 mins.

And? Its just a fact stated, nothing more.

No, it's not stated like a fact. It is packaged in a theatrical manner with a smile on Liara's face that expresses lust for power. During that statement she spreads her arms in the same way as Aria T'Loak did when she said "I am Omega".

[Kenshen]

tonnactus wrote...

aryon69 wrote...
She says with what she now knows she could start a war in 5 mins.

And? Its just a fact stated, nothing more.

I see it as a sign that the power she has taken over is already starting to affect her.  Power corrupts and total power totally corrupts or something like that.  It is just my opinion on how I viewed that part.  I do not like the idea of her becoming the SB as I see it becoming nothing but a problem in the future.

[hismastersvoice]

The only way Liara could possibly be a threat to a player character is in a situation where



a) She remain SB after ME3

There is another ME game after ME3 where the main character isn't Shepard

c) The new character and SB ways cross the wrong way for some reason.



But then again, crossing Liara would probably end up with Shepard owning you, your family, friends, pets and pests so that's not likely either...

[Bebbe777]

I trust Liara, she wont do the same mistake as her mother.

[Tasker]

Have to lower the tone a little bit now...


Liara couldn't be a threat to Shepard in the future because she's going to be too busy looking after all the little LiaraShep babies.  

[JamieCOTC]

LIARIBASTILA!!

She IS coming. 

PREPARE!!