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[Dean_the_Young]

Are you a Paragon? Are you a comitted Paragon who hates how all those mean, pesky Renegades say you'd compromise your Paragon morals if it mattered? Are you a Paragon who hates being slighted as a person who can only maintain high morals if you are never challenged by them?

Well, here's you challenge to prove them wrong. Show them what being a real Paragon, of not only espousing but following the rules and never making that Renegade choice, really means. That you would never accept any help from Terrorists that you didn't absolutely need, that you would never stoop to any sort of crime or wrong action to support yourself just as you would demand from others, that you would never quit or compromise those laws and codes of conduct simply because it's convenient.

Think you can do it? Consider yourself a pure Paragon? Here are the five simple rules to see if you can walk the talk

.

1. Diplomacy first, always, never give up until the last attempt.

No Renegade choices, interrupts, or dialgoue tree bottom-choices can be picked. A full Paragon, after all, will always try to talk things out even if it doesn't look likely to succede, not open fire in the middle of dialogue like some Renegade. The choices an Ultimate Paragon can NOT make are Renegade persuades and interrupts.(Altered from stuck on top/middle choices, though those should be stressed.)

2. Lawkeeper: First, Foremost, Always.

Renegade Spectres like to think that laws don't apply to them. Paragons understand that laws exist for a reason, and that Spectre status is no excuse.  From the greatest diplomat to the lowest criminal, all are owed due process and protections of the law you hold dear. Paragons are the examples to be followed, but can you hold that sort of standard?

Thou shall not kill*, steal, or rob. Anyone. Stealing from the colonists on Horizon is forbidden. Stealing from the Quarians on the Alarai is forbidden. Stealing from the plague district on Omega is forbidden. Stealing from the Blue Suns is forbidden. Stealing from Hock is forbidden. Stealing from anyone, at any point, criminal or not, is forbidden. This includes intellectual property theft, ie data/technology stealing. If you didn't buy the technology, it's not yours.

If you're looting or hacking or bypassing any non-door security, you have failed.

*Since Stewie wants to be particular about it, in the sense of the original sense, thou shalt not murder (or kill unnecessarily).


3.. Not one iota owed to criminals and terrorists!

Do you hate terrorists? Do you hate criminals? Of course you do: you're a Paragon. You wouldn't have anything to do with them if you had a choice, and wouldn't let them have any claim to you.

Or so you'd like to say. But can you back that sentiment with actions, or suffering from lack?

Give nothing to any criminal person or group. Accept no illegal blood or drug money (or, in the case of the game, don't use the credits given). Keep track of the money given to you by anyone who wouldn't be legal on the Citadel.

Cerberus? Screw their mission payouts, they're terrorists who experiment on peoople and aliens. Aria? A crime lord. Anyone who would pay you to look the other way or help them in some criminal act, don't help them and don't accept or use their help. Smugglers, revenge-murderers, poachers, garden-world nukers, war-criminals, flay-people-with-their-minds-ers, those who would hide the truth to protect guilty men, everyone.

A Paragon must be universal, and can not succumb to neptism or favoritism.


4. No aid to Cerberus!

A big one. Cerberus is an abomination, an enemy of both the Alliance and the Council. You may be stuck with them for now, but they should not receive any assistance from you beyond what the mission absolutely requires. Nothing you have a choice to do should benefit them.

That means more than the Collector Base. That means more than sending them their stolen data. It means you aren't going to give them one piece of technology they could use that htey don't already have. Those tech bounty scans? Cerberus is paying you off to supply them with advanced technology. Those tech scans? Do you really think Cerberus doesn't keep them as well?

No. No no no. The Council will never believe you weren't allied with Cerberus if you spend the game handing them technology for credits (credits violating rule 3) and sharing technologies with them. Who knows what Cerberus could do with technology you can scan and steal (rule 2!) from the Collector Ship? And imagine if you handed them the plans to build miniaturized versions of Sovereign's main guns? Think of the destruction they could pose with that alone.

No. The Galaxy needs to be kept safe from Cerberus, not endangered by strengthening it.



5: Blow up the base.

Sort of mandated by rules 3 and 4, but just thought I'd make it clear.







And there they are. They won't be easy. They won't be gentle. It may, in fact, be one of the hardest playthroughs you've ever had. It will be so easy to compromise those morals, to Renegade and then self-justify. So very, very easy.

But who ever said Paragon was supposed to be the easy way?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 septembre 2010 - 01:55 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Miranda and Jacob both willingly joined a terrorist group.

[stewie1974]

It also means not picking up any thermal clips or scanning dead bodies .... if looting the dead is "bad".

It would also mean not shooting a single sapient enemy -ever-...

given that both are impossible to achieve, lets just say that paragon choices are choices in the direction of paragon...

No "direction" is unilateral.....  It's like saying all republicians -must- be pro-life..... or all liberals -must- be -pro-choice.

Not all issues are decided because you feel more drawn to a way of doing things... a moral code isn't an absolute dictated by "YOU" the outsider... it's one dictated by the person personally.

Modifié par stewie1974, 17 septembre 2010 - 12:26 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Real biotics don't use thermal clips... but for gameplay purposes, an exception on those.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 septembre 2010 - 12:24 .

[stewie1974]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Real biotics don't use thermal clips... but for gameplay purposes, an exception on those.

Nope....can't make an exception for gameplay purposes..... killing sapient creatures is another one..that a true paragon would "never" do..

You have to hide behind a crate and let your team mates do the killing....

we are talking "true paragon" here....

that means something along the lines of "cleric" or "medic"

You can heal your squad..
You can "distract" enemies with a drone.
You can never directly kill an enemy...

Modifié par stewie1974, 17 septembre 2010 - 12:31 .

[stewie1974]

Shandepared wrote...

A paragon can kill in self-defense. Paragon doesn't mean pacifist, it just means violence is the last resort. If fired up on you can return fire, but try to use appropriate force.

Killing "sapient" creatures is anti paragon period. If pacisifism isn't a paragon choice.... well then killing  isn't a renegade choice.

You can kill "non sapient" creatures such as mechs and those expoding crab like creatures and varren.

Everything else you are required to incapacitate...

anyhow I thought you were trying to make the game difficult for paragon....

I'm sure it can be done by simply letting your squadmates do the killing.... after all you are skipping out on a load of missions...

You may strip sheilds and armor ... you may not deliver the killing blow.
You may heal your squad....
You may destroy mechs and wild creatures. ((geth are sapient you may not kill them))
You may not pick up ammo from the fallen... nor may you loot ammo crates.

Modifié par stewie1974, 17 septembre 2010 - 12:39 .

[SonvarTheMighty]

Does this also affect your party you use on missions(once you have everyone)? Miranda and Jacob would be out once you have other members because they willingly work for Cereberus. Jack and Katsumi are criminals. Garrus stands for what a renegade is really. Thane is a hired assassin. Zaeed founded the Blue Suns a major mercenary group. Mordin was a major part in the genophage for Krogans. Samara is probably the only one that falls close to being in line with a Paragon. Tali follows the rules of her people and is one of the few members who is very much against Cereberus



Seems the only loyalty missions you'd do would be Samara and Tali. Samara because she is following Asari law to take down her daughter and Ardat-Yakshi. Tali because she is being wrongfully accused of treason but at the end of the trial I think you would have to reveal what Tali's father did since anything else would seem like circumventing the law.

[Dean_the_Young]

stewie1974 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

A paragon can kill in self-defense. Paragon doesn't mean pacifist, it just means violence is the last resort. If fired up on you can return fire, but try to use appropriate force.

Killing "sapient" creatures is anti paragon period. If pacisifism isn't a paragon choice.... well then killing  isn't a renegade choice.

You can kill "non sapient" creatures such as mechs and those expoding crab like creatures and varren.

Everything else you are required to incapacitate...

Not true at all.

Paragons are equivalent to good cops, but even good cops can kill if they have to. They don't kill when they don't have to. Paragons have never been equivalent for absolute pacifism.

[Dean_the_Young]

SonvarTheMighty wrote...

Does this also affect your party you use on missions(once you have everyone)? Miranda and Jacob would be out once you have other members because they willingly work for Cereberus. Jack and Katsumi are criminals. Garrus stands for what a renegade is really. Thane is a hired assassin. Zaeed founded the Blue Suns a major mercenary group. Mordin was a major part in the genophage for Krogans. Samara is probably the only one that falls close to being in line with a Paragon. Tali follows the rules of her people and is one of the few members who is very much against Cereberus

Seems the only loyalty missions you'd do would be Samara and Tali. Samara because she is following Asari law to take down her daughter and Ardat-Yakshi. Tali because she is being wrongfully accused of treason but at the end of the trial I think you would have to reveal what Tali's father did since anything else would seem like circumventing the law.

Zaeed's profession is legal as well, and his job (liberate seized refinery) is legit as well.

[BHRamsay]

The Main problem with the challenge being that you have predicated it's success or failure upon YOUR personal perception of the paragon path...to make it a really fair challenge you would have to use whatever standard that BW's writers set or failing that using a RW standard --- examples would include the Code of Chivalry or the Samurai Code or similar path that would guide a warrior seeking to maintain honor above all other concerns.



Looting the bodies on board the Alarai for instance is permissible because the Qurians have no sense of ownership (look it up in the wiki sometime ---it blew me away, they just leave stuff out in the open for anyone to take)



Your responsibility as a leader both to maintain your honor and show loyalty means that you have to upgrade the Normandy's tech and the weapons of your allies which would violate another or your rules...



But to make this interesting ...and I mean really interesting ... You would have to be willing to prove your obvious belief that a path of honor, honesty, respect and loyalty is impractical in a darkened galaxy.

[stewie1974]

A person of preeminent qualities, who acts as a pattern or model of some given (especially positive) quality. [from 16th c.]

In the novel, Constanza is a paragon of virtue who would never compromise her reputation.

Well the question is...

Which "Quality" are you a "Paragon" of...

If it's "good"

then well some buddists would argue that "pacisifisim" is the abosulute...and that all sapient life is sacred.


As I said... you can kill non sapient life ..."mechs... varren... krillex, thresher maw...reaper creations....such as that praetorian, husks hell even collectors "

You can't kill anything else that has free will and capable of making its own choices, as it can theoretically be reasoned with.

Duck behind a crate..heal your team mates... weaken their shields and armor ... but kill ye not.

A code of "thou shall not kill"... has no exceptions...even if someone else is breaking that law by trying to kill you......

Hey of course I would kill in self defence in real life..... but I'm not bound by some lofty ideal.

You want to make it challenging right?


It's the "ultimate" paragon.... if you are willing to kill and justify killing sapients , then you can justify anything else along the path..

Modifié par stewie1974, 17 septembre 2010 - 01:00 .

[Mooner911]

...makes you want to stand by the Elcor dude all day and spout enkindler crap. oh, wait, that's illegal...

[Dean_the_Young]

BHRamsay wrote...

The Main problem with the challenge being that you have predicated it's success or failure upon YOUR personal perception of the paragon path...to make it a really fair challenge you would have to use whatever standard that BW's writers set or failing that using a RW standard --- examples would include the Code of Chivalry or the Samurai Code or similar path that would guide a warrior seeking to maintain honor above all other concerns.

Of course this is my perception of the Paragon path: I'm the one issuing the challenge, after all.

All the rules I've issued have been based on Paragon themes (lawfulness, closeness to the Council, for example, which does have laws against stealing and grave robbing) and common consensus items (anti-Cerberus).


About the only issue I admit I overlooked up to this point was who you can have in your party, to which I don't really have a restriction in mind. Play with the 'best' party you can, I suppose, as soon as you can. 

Looting the bodies on board the Alarai for instance is permissible because the Qurians have no sense of ownership (look it up in the wiki sometime ---it blew me away, they just leave stuff out in the open for anyone to take)

They have no sense of personal ownership, because things are owned amongst the Quarians.

Shepard is not a Quarian.

Your responsibility as a leader both to maintain your honor and show loyalty means that you have to upgrade the Normandy's tech and the weapons of your allies which would violate another or your rules...

Your responsibility to the Council, on the other hand, is to not help Cerberus any more than you have to.

The challenege of this challenge, of course, is that the Ultimate Lawful-Good is also Lawful, to the Citadel's laws and standards. Robinhood was a good person, but this isn't the ultimate Good paragon challenge. This is the ultimate Lawful-Good Challenge.

But to make this interesting ...and I mean really interesting ... You would have to be willing to prove your obvious belief that a path of honor, honesty, respect and loyalty is impractical in a darkened galaxy.

Or, alternatively, you prove that while uncompromised morality comes with costs, it is possible. And how much of a Paragon do you have to be do be able to do the Right thing, even when you are hated, cursed for it, or lose friends and subordinates? How many exemplary figures in history, truly exemplary, sacrificed their principals to avoid personal loss?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 septembre 2010 - 01:07 .

[stewie1974]

Yeah, well I still think the challenge is to easy.

Strip sheilds...wound to life bar is like minimal...let someone else do the killing blow though...

Modifié par stewie1974, 17 septembre 2010 - 01:09 .

[crimzontearz]

this is rather silly



it is all up to interpretation. a TRUE lawful good will mercilessly kill or punish the wicked because they are wicked.



Sparing the batarians in the quarantine zone, not shooting the monologuing krogan on tuchanka, not shooting Elnora on ilium, stopping garrus from shooting Harkins, stopping Miranda from shooting Necket, stopping Mordin when he decides to kill Malen.



All those are NEUTRAL good choices as a Lawful Good would feel compelled to kill terrorists, would be torturers, criminals and so on and so forth

[Dean_the_Young]

Then do that, and see if you stand to do it. Not all neutral choices are like that, but if you feel you need to, do it. There is variety of interpretation within lawful neutral, and you can see more of it if you try.

This is a character-challenge to the player, not so much a gameplay difficulty challenge.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 septembre 2010 - 01:20 .

[Xilizhra]

The sarcasm is strong with this one. In any case, a total Paragon playthrough is impossible because you can't tell TIM to screw himself and/or turn the crew (or just Miranda) into C-Sec. That said, I'm tempted to try this one, especially since most of your tech upgrades don't involve getting fed into Cerberus.

A few other issues, though. For one thing, Collectors are mindless husk-equivalents; they have no real way of being stolen from. Second, there's this:

but at the end of the trial I think you would have to reveal what Tali's father did since anything else would seem like circumventing the law.

This involves a lower-right dialogue wheel option and is by your own standards impossible. And third, a major theme for Paragons is their attempts to redeem people, not just condemn them and throw them away a la Renegades. Hence, Miranda and Jacob wouldn't be entirely out, and their loyalty missions are harmless. Garrus' is specifically to stop an assassination (for Paragons), as is Thane's. Jack's is just blowing up an abandoned building on a planet no one comes to; I'd dearly love to not recruit her at all, but it isn't an option. Samara and Tali we did already; Legion's rewriting is morally permissible by geth standards, and since geth are the only ones being affected, that's all that matters. Mordin involves rescuing someone from a criminal group, and Grunt's is just a component of krogan culture. All fine.

[Zrvan]

I clicked on this topic to see what it was. I could not stop laughing.

If playing through the game with approximately ~250ish credits is your thing, then go to it, put your back into it. Just bear in mind, this means NO upgrades. Of any sort. For anyone. Everything flows outward from Cerberus funding of your ops, up to and including the probes and fuel to go resource mining.

Your 'ultimate Paragon' can't do anything but totally fail the final mission, since virtually every loyalty mission in the game involves a crime of some sort.

Jacob - premeditated murder
Miranda - aiding and abetting kidnapping
Zaeed - premeditated murder
Kasumi - grand larceny
Grunt - manslaughter
Mordin - plagiarism / murder
Samara - premeditated murder
Thane - assault
Jack - vandalism
Garrus - premeditated murder / assault
Legion - not sure on the classification here -- war crime?  Torture?

Nol loyalty plus no Normandy upgrades equals bad day for Shepherd when going through the Omega-4.

Modifié par Zrvan, 17 septembre 2010 - 01:34 .