237 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

crimzontearz wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Then do that, and see if you stand to do it. Not all neutral choices are like that, but if you feel you need to, do it. There is variety of interpretation within lawful neutral, and you can see more of it if you try.

This is a character-challenge to the player, not so much a gameplay difficulty challenge.

LOL I despise Alignments, they are obsolete and nonsensical hence why I DO NOT play DnD games and stick with other games like NWoD

with that in mind my comment was aimed to make you realize how absurd the challenge is

I like alignments as basic descriptions of behavior. They're quite useful there, if not used as straitjackets.

True, but Shepard was judging Samaras’ actions by human standards. To be
fair those were the only standards s/he had to judge her by at the time
as s/he had a limited understanding of the role justicars play in asari
society.

Stopping Samara from executing someone is the moral and
legal equivalent of intervening to stop the sentence of a court of law
from being carried out. Something a lawful person would never do.

Though a lawful good person might if she felt the sentence was unjust.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 17 septembre 2010 - 02:18 .

[General User]

[quote]True, but Shepard was judging Samaras’ actions by human standards. To be
fair those were the only standards s/he had to judge her by at the time
as s/he had a limited understanding of the role justicars play in asari
society.

Stopping Samara from executing someone is the moral and
legal equivalent of intervening to stop the sentence of a court of law
from being carried out. Something a lawful person would never do.[/quote]
Though a lawful good person might if she felt the sentence was unjust.
[/quote]


Indeed they would, but they would first examine the facts, details, and circumstances of the specific case, taking into account cultural factors as well as legal ones. Shepard to his/her credit does this not acting on his/her first impression of Samara, and while not approving of Samara’s actions(human standards again), I feel s/he does come to understand them and the circumstance they arose from.

[Xilizhra]

Well, yes. Samara's methods may be a touch brutal, but her motives are at least pure.

[General User]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, yes. Samara's methods may be a touch brutal, but her motives are at least pure.

And her actions are legal, under asari law anyway.  Consensus achieved?

[Xilizhra]

I suppose. Though even Paragon Shepard can kill her.

[Xilizhra]

Right. First of all, human dominance doesn't count as a pure motive. Second, there's a difference between overzealousness in fighting crime by shooting to kill from the beginning, and kidnapping/torturing children, quite often to death.

[Moiaussi]

The challenge is impossible. The game itself doesn't let you be 'lawful good.'

You are not given the option of arresting Miranda on murder charges regarding Wilson (even if he was a traitor and/or a murderer, civilians shooting unarmed suspects is generally considered illegal. It is also uncertain that he wasn't working for an ally).

You do not commandeer the Cerberus shuttle, fly it straight back to Alliance space, and hand it, Miranda, Jacob, and any other captured Cerberus operatives over to the authorities for trial, nor do you subject yourself to a proper council investigation as to what your status should be.

You don't even consider taking over the Lazarus base, a Cerberus operation with considerable valuable data. Presumably it has a communications room somewhere that could be used to contact the Alliance/council and get you picked up... or at least warn them of the operation.

[General User]

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, yes. Samara's methods may be a touch brutal, but her motives are at least pure.

Well, yes. Cerberus' methods may be a touch brutal, but their motives are at least pure.

Laudable is a better word for Cerberus’ motives.  Stopping the collectors is a most worthy goal.

[Xilizhra]

Personally, I believe that it's best for all life if it can work in as equal a capacity as possible. Cerberus' goals fundamentally clash with this.

[Fiery Phoenix]

I think you're giving this a little too much thought, Dean. Those who say they play "pure Paragon" are misusing the term; there is simply no such thing as pure Paragon in the Mass Effect universe. You are often bound to do things that contradict your Paragon morality (e.g. scanning the keepers, using the Mu Relay, unnecessarily hacking security safes and whatnot, etc. etc. etc.), because that's how the game is built in the first place. You can choose to be a Paragon, but that's about it.



Interesting thread nonetheless.

[Xilizhra]

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Personally, I believe that it's best for all life if it can work in as equal a capacity as possible. Cerberus' goals fundamentally clash with this.

Reality clashes with your beliefs too.

I am so very sorry that you had learn this from me.

The day I learn anything from you is the day I know i'm in the process of being indoctrinated. Especially considering that "reality" doesn't necessarily have much to do with this fictional universe.

[Xilizhra]

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

 Especially considering that "reality" doesn't necessarily have much to do with this fictional universe.

Well at least you are willing to admit that your beliefs only work in a fictional setting. Too bad we can't get Marxists to admit that.

Not quite my point. The reason that this works in this universe is because aliens are, for the most part, pretty much like humans. This may not be the case in real life, but what they'd be like in real life is highly irrelevant; similarly, I think different ethnic and cultural groups of humans should work together pretty much equally.

[Xilizhra]

In Mass Effect, or real life?

[MythicalKnight]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Stealing from the colonists on Horizon is forbidden. Stealing from the Quarians on the Alarai is forbidden. Stealing from the plague district on Omega is forbidden. Stealing from the Blue Suns is forbidden. Stealing from Hock is forbidden. Stealing from anyone, at any point, criminal or not, is forbidden. This includes intellectual property theft, ie data/technology stealing. If you didn't buy the technology, it's not yours.

....

Give nothing to any criminal person or group. Accept no illegal blood or drug money (or, in the case of the game, don't use the credits given). Keep track of the money given to you by anyone who wouldn't be legal on the Citadel.

And now, half your team will die because you were not able to buy the needed upgrades to keep them alive.  How Paragon is that????

stewie1974 wrote...

Killing "sapient" creatures is anti paragon period. If pacisifism isn't a paragon choice.... well then killing  isn't a renegade choice.

You can kill "non sapient" creatures such as mechs and those expoding crab like creatures and varren.

Everything else you are required to incapacitate...

anyhow I thought you were trying to make the game difficult for paragon.... 

I'm sure it can be done by simply letting your squadmates do the killing.... after all you are skipping out on a load of missions...

You may strip sheilds and armor ... you may not deliver the killing blow.
You may heal your squad.... 
You may destroy mechs and wild creatures. ((geth are sapient you may not kill them))
You may not pick up ammo from the fallen... nor may you loot ammo crates.

Please tell me you DIDN'T do a playthrough like this... that's just pointless.

And stop playing devil's advocate.

[Xilizhra]

In Mass Effect, it's a plain and simple fact that humanity forced its way into Citadel politics much faster and harder than any species before it did, which has created a lot of understandable distrust. Luckily, my Shepard saved the Council in ME1, and this has dispelled quite a few fears about humans (not all of them, witness Joram Taleed, but in the Paragon path he just looks like a butthurt whiner, as opposed to the actual points he makes in the Renegade one). Humans now have a seat on the Concil, and we were damned lucky to get it. Fundamentally, that is enough. Humans don't need any more power; we'll integrate more fully into the system with time and fears about us will be allayed. And if we help fight the Reapers and make sure not to use that time of chaos to take more power, the rest of the galaxy will like us even more for it Cerberus can even play a part in this if they quietly develop technology which they distribute to the rest of the galaxy (not just the Alliance), and don't try to take further power. Unfortunately, I don't trust TIM to avoid this, which is why I destroy the base.



As for real life, I'm not privy to top-level politics, so my ideas are a lot murkier. Ideally, what I'd want is some sort of cultural syncretism, a sort of mutually-assured peace where various cultures can learn from each other, but I lack the knowledge of how to bring this about.

[Christmas Ape]

At what point is the distinction between looting and salvage being made for this playthrough? Salvage is a recognized right of space travel.
Anything found on Pragia, for example, should be fair game. The facility is abandoned, the planet uncontrolled - it's salvage.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 17 septembre 2010 - 03:50 .

[General User]

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Right. First of all, human dominance doesn't count as a pure motive.

Prove it.

I accept your challenge, good sir. 
If the word pure is taken to mean unalloyed or free from deviation, then Cerberus’ motive of securing human dominance in the galaxy “against the Reapers and beyond” is pure. It certainly doesn’t lack for scope.
If pure is meant in the sense of moral purity, than Cerberus’ goal is an abomination, based on the fact that humans are imperfect beings. An imperfect being should not have power over their fellow beings since they are, by definition, incapable of exercising it... well, perfectly. 
Mordin calls humanity a race of “peaks and valleys.” I cannot disagree with him. In a human dominated galaxy, when the “peaks” of human morality are running the show, it may well be a golden age, but the “valleys” dominated times will be eras of absolute misery.
Humans should not dominate the other races, nor should the other races dominate humans, each contributes something to the greater whole. Salarians are intelligence experts, turians know how to field an army, krogan are tough as self-regenerating nails, asari are natural consensus builders, humanity (imo) is the innovator of the group, the race most likely to “think outside the box” and find solutions to the unsolvable.
That gives humanity a special place in the stars, but not a dominant one.

[Xilizhra]

Burqa, no. Cutting down on a culture that's rather oversaturated with superficial and tawdry expressions of sexuality, yes.



As for the other races... I think that to join the Council, your fleet has to be big enough to help protect the rest of Citadel space, and not everyone has that or other requirements. However, I think that a voice in galactic government would be a good thing for most of them, and they'll get it in time.