237 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

No, there IS no best solution. You have no idea what brainwashing will do to them. They arrived at the conclusion that serving the Reapers was right on their own; Legion himself says it was not due to an error, virus or any other such aberrant influence. There is nothing to guarantee they will not simply come to that conclusion again, rewrite or no rewrite.



And even if it's perfect? Goes off without a hitch, they never think of serving the Reapers again, etc? You've just robbed an entire race of their free will. You can rationalize it if it helps you sleep at night, but I'm willing to bet you wouldn't want someone to do that to you, just because they thought your views were the "wrong ones."



The implications are staggering. Let's rewrite gays so that they're straight - we're saving them from hell! Let's rewrite black people so they like slavery - no more racial conflict! Let's rewrite Palestinians so they don't want to live in the West Bank anymore - no more wars!



The ends justify the means, right? Right?

Do note that we forcibly deprogram people who are deeply into cults, which the heretic geth could well be described to be. This doesn't seem so dissimilar, and if the heretics could go back to the Reapers afterward, it clearly means that they retain free will.

[PsyrenY]

Not the same. People in cults were brainwashed by a charismatic leader of some sort - your Jim Jones, your Kheresh, your Hubbard etc.



The Heretics have no such external influence. They came to the conclusion that they did on their own, and even Legion himself says that their logic was not faulty in doing so.

[Xilizhra]

Firstly, the heretics did have a charismatic leader to bring them under Sovereign's path: Saren. But that pales in comparison to the fact that the heretics were able to observe their god, and possibly even communicate with it. Sovereign might not be able to indoctrinate synthetics, but the presence of the geth ideal so close could very well screw with intended rationality.

[upsettingshorts]

Don't fall in to the trap of using human examples, such as concepts like "charisma" or cults of personality. You know, benign anthropomorphism. 

Use only the information Legion either gives you or is self-evident and draw a conclusion from that.

Otherwise we're applying organic ethics to artificial intelligence, and it doesn't work.

Not saying the only conclusion you can reach is the one I did, but I made it based on the information Legion gave me. No comparisons to cults or the mentally handicapped or any other such human frame of reference. Granted, I had quite a few playthroughs where I did it differently because I was anthropomorphizing the Geth.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 septembre 2010 - 09:55 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm trying to come up with an analogy that makes the issue relatable. It's far from perfect, but that's kind of what I'm seeing as having happened to the heretics.

[upsettingshorts]

What happened is what Legion described, I'm not sure an analogy can do more than cloud the issue.

Sovereign and the Geth came into contact. Most Geth did not want anything to do with it. Some Geth did. Up until this point, Geth had the same perspective but different though processes. The Heretic group separated from the collective to further the interests of Sovereign, their new leader. Over the course of their service and separation from the Orthodox Geth, both groups retained their different thought process but also gained different perspectives. For example, the Orthodox Geth had never met Shepard until the derelict Reaper encounter, whereas the Heretics had fought him numerous times. In pursuit of Sovereign's goals, they made war on the Citadel races and eventually planned to deploy a virus that would alter the thought process of the Orthodox Geth into joining their cause.

So eventually Legion presents Shepard with an opportunity to rewrite the Heretic Geth thought process and return them to the Orthodox collective. What the virus cannot change is the unique perspective the Heretic Geth have gained through their separation, thus making them inherently and irreversibly different than the Orthodox Geth regardless of how reprogrammed their thought process attempts to make them homogeneous.

Legion states that while the Heretic Geth would come around to the idea that being in Sovereign's service was wrong, he can't predict much else about their future behavior and due to a lack of consensus, defers to Shepard - whose perspective is sharper than the Orthodox Geth given Shepard's significant contact with the Heretics.

The above is more or less, the complete description of the scenario we're presented with. I'd argue it doesn't fit cleanly into any human analogy - so using them is problematic.

Based on the information above, I destroyed the Heretic base to preserve the Orthodox Geth as Legion has explained them to me - especially their adherence to self-determination. The introduction of the Heretics would in my estimation prove to be a destabilizing element that I could not afford to risk given the stakes - both the impending Reaper Invasion and any hope for peace with the Quarians.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 septembre 2010 - 10:08 .

[Xilizhra]

I don't think that, if the orthodox geth refused the Reapers the first time, that they'd join them thanks to the ex-heretics.

[upsettingshorts]

No, I don't think that's a likely scenario. But I can't predict what would happen, neither can Legion, and I want my Geth nice and predictable and (at least somewhat) friendly. The Orthodox Geth are already all of those things, didn't want to mess it up.

[Zan Mura]

 Well, good thing my character is more chaotic / neutral good then.

I don't believe anyone in that position can afford to by so black / white about such decisions anyway. Same as a 100% renegade, being evil for the sake of evil is metagaming and pointless, there's always some other goal that's sometimes best served by doing the good deed. Extreme on either end is always bad, regardless of the subject.

But of course, devout fanaticism towards the paragon option was the point here. Not actually roleplaying a more realistic personality. Which is all a matter of opinion anyway. So, proceed! 

[Moiaussi]

Optimystic_X wrote...

You cannot give a paragon justification for either robbing a set of sapient beings of their beliefs, or destroying them for disagreeing with you. As Legion themselves say - "all intelligent beings should self-determinate."

You also can't do nothing, because then ALL the Geth become heretics.

It's such a well-written dilemma BECAUSE it has no clear-cut "best" solution. The point is that you go through with it anyway, because the alternative is worse.

And the reviewer didn't conclude either of them was better - that's the point.

Actually in the context of a defensive war, based on what is known of the Heretics, destroying them is probably fair game. You are not destroying them for disagreeing with you but are destroying them for the manner in which they are disagreeing with you. Similarly, if you conclude that the Heretics didn't change their minds of their own free will and are 'infected' by Sovereign's reprogramming, reversing the reprogramming may be fair game.

[upsettingshorts]

The Geth also don't have civilians or noncombatants as far as I know. So Heretic Station is a "military target." Thereby invalidating any genocidal arguments against it blowing it sky high.

"They chose a path that prohibits coexistence." - Legion

Rewiting them just... introduces an unstable element into a relatively stable Orthodox Geth population.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 septembre 2010 - 10:25 .

[PsyrenY]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Otherwise we're applying organic ethics to artificial intelligence, and it doesn't work.

Unfortunately, organic ethics are the only ones we have. We simply lack the capacity to see the issue as Legion would. And since Shepard is the one entrusted with the heretics' fate, his/her organic ethics are very much relevant to this issue.

Xilizhra wrote...

Firstly, the heretics did have a charismatic leader to bring them under Sovereign's path: Saren.

Incorrect: Sovereign (aka Nazara) contacted them first. What swayed the heretics was greed, not despondency/disaffectation (and certainly not madness.)

Xilizhra wrote...

But that pales in comparison to the fact that the heretics were able to
observe their god, and possibly even communicate with it. Sovereign
might not be able to indoctrinate synthetics, but the presence of the
geth ideal so close could very well screw with intended
rationality.

No, their conclusion was rational -in fact, it was arguably, more rational than the Orthodox Geth. Why reinvent the wheel? 

The true geth simply saw the risks to relying on Reaper technology as
outweighing the benefits, and the heretics saw the benefits as
outweighing the risks. Both are perfectly rational conclusions to draw.

Also, I'm not trying to say the choice anyone made in that scenario was wrong - simply that none of them were truly Paragon. You can argue for one being more Paragon than the others - certainly, sitting back and letting the heretics brainwash the true Geth would have been the worst solution available - but that does nothing to help you rank the other two alternatives against each other.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 17 septembre 2010 - 10:27 .

[Xilizhra]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

No, I don't think that's a likely scenario. But I can't predict what would happen, neither can Legion, and I want my Geth nice and predictable and (at least somewhat) friendly. The Orthodox Geth are already all of those things, didn't want to mess it up.

It could be a risk, but my Shepard doesn't think that it's a heavy enough one to throw away the prize.

[upsettingshorts]

Optimystic_X wrote...
Unfortunately, organic ethics are the only ones we have. We simply lack the capacity to see the issue as Legion would. And since Shepard is the one entrusted with the heretics' fate, his/her organic ethics are very much relevant to this issue.

Caught that did ya?  Well, my Shepard happens to like the Orthodox Geth, so his decision is based on the ethical concept of enlightened self-interest.  Granted, someone with a different perspective than mine could equally use the same ethical basis to rationalize rewriting the Geth because they may help in the war against the Reapers.   At that point, it's just a calculated risk either way.

Xilizhra wrote...
It could be a risk, but my Shepard doesn't think that it's a heavy enough one to throw away the prize priiiize.

FTFY.

There's other ways it could backfire.  Maybe they'll stay neutral.  Maybe they'll help against the Geth but the Heretics extensive experience battling organics since the separation will convince the entire collective that peace with Quarians, and therefore organics as a whole, is impossible - enough to damage their belief in self determination.  I don't know, and can't say.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 17 septembre 2010 - 10:31 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm glad you saw what I did there. And it could be a risk, yes, but... that just seems like too much speculation.

[upsettingshorts]

Either option practically demands we speculate. The only option with a known outcome is to do nothing save putting a bullet in Legion and letting the Heretics rewrite the Orthodox Geth. Which isn't actually an option.

[Xilizhra]

I'd really like the support of the ex-heretics. They could also provide valuable perspective on the Reapers, perhaps.

[PsyrenY]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Caught that did ya?  Well, my Shepard happens to like the Orthodox Geth, so his decision is based on the ethical concept of enlightened self-interest.  Granted, someone with a different perspective than mine could equally use the same ethical basis to rationalize rewriting the Geth because they may help in the war against the Reapers.   At that point, it's just a calculated risk either way.

I have savegames where I did both,  because I'm curious as to what Bioware does with the situation. But I myself would destroy them. Even without the threat of reintroducing a potentially subversive element into Geth thought processes, I'm just against brainwashing in general.

[Xilizhra]

Anti-brainwashing, but pro-killing?

[PsyrenY]

Xilizhra wrote...

Anti-brainwashing, but pro-killing?

Yes, I am in favor of killing unrepentant murderers. Particularly when they are gunning for me personally. But rewriting them makes me no better than them - the virus was their idea, remember?

[Xilizhra]

Killing you was also their idea, so does killing them make you no better than they are?

[Exile Isan]

I don't know if anyone has posted this (because I'm too lazy to read this entire thread) but in regards to Tali's trial and revealing the "truth"; the truth of that trial is that it's all crap. The trial really has nothing to do with Tali or her father it has everything to do with the Geth and the admirals are using Tali and Rael as scapegoats to futher their own goals in regards to the question of the Geth. A true paragon in my books would point this out and not let that injustice continue.

Modifié par Exile Isan, 17 septembre 2010 - 11:35 .

[RGFrog]

Here's a big problem with both choices. The only geth your are affecting are the ones on that base.

If you choose to destroy them, you only destroy the geth minds on that base. There's nothing happening to the heretic geth that happen to be at other locations.

If you choose to rewrite them, you're only guaranteed that the rewrite happens to those minds on that base. And it's only a math rewrite. There's nothing guarantying it will actually change the heretics, only Legion's speculation.

Again, those heretic geth on other planets/systems may or may not be overwritten. What if they find out about the virus ahead of time and take precautions? What if they take precautions, return to the base, and correct the change in their formerly heretic associates?

I'm afraid that either choice will not have a good outcome. If you destroy the Heretics, the only geth that are assured to agree with you are the 1000 in the frame you call Legion. That mass murder of the minds on the station could sour the non-heretic geth against sheppard and make things worse. In which case, Legion will be sure to follow.

Or if you choose to overwrite them with the virus, shep. could just be giving the remaining heretic geth proof that a virus could easily convert the non-heretics and former heretics math back in line with their own. Then you'd have all the geth alligned against the one that sought to control the geth with a program. Pissed at taking away their choice, and facilitating the means for the heretics to take the choice away from the orthodox, you could again end up with only Legion's geth in Shep's side.

Either way, only roughly half of the geth in the legion frame will agree with either of shep's decision. That's a lot of geth that aren't 100% with shep that have access to the Normandy, its AI, and all of Cerb's databases. Not only that but knowledge of quarian's plans to re-enslave or destroy them.

I don't see a way for either decision to result in something good happening. The geth will turn against shep. They may not return to the reapers, but they will certainly not follow someone that has just succeeded in doing what their main enemy, quarians, have been trying to do all along.

[PsyrenY]

wiggles89 wrote...

Destroying them takes their autonomy seriously. Rewriting them doesn't.

This.

Xilizhra wrote...

Killing you was also their idea, so does killing them make you no better than they are?

Lots of beings want to kill Shepard. Should we rewrite them too? Is there any point to free will at all in your eyes?