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The Ultimate Lawful-Good Paragon Playthrough Challenge (Cerberus Haters Encouraged!)


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#201
Xilizhra

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If you choose to rewrite them, you're only guaranteed that the rewrite happens to those minds on that base. And it's only a math rewrite. There's nothing guarantying it will actually change the heretics, only Legion's speculation.

This is utterly wrong. Legion states that the virus will be transmitted to all heretic geth everywhere, using a pulse that's so freaking powerful that everyone has to flee the station just as fast as they would if it was exploding.

Lots of beings want to kill Shepard. Should we rewrite them too? Is there any point to free will at all in your eyes?

Is free will more valuable than life? Is it a morally wrong decision to stop someone from comitting suicide?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 17 septembre 2010 - 11:53 .


#202
PsyrenY

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Xilizhra wrote...

Is free will more valuable than life?


Yes, I believe it is. I already know you disagree, so we can probably stop here.
Life without choice - you may as well be a carrot, or an amoeba.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 17 septembre 2010 - 11:54 .


#203
Dean_the_Young

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Life without free will can potentially regain free will. But free will without life can never regain either.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 17 septembre 2010 - 11:56 .


#204
PsyrenY

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Life without free will can potentially regain free will. But free will without life can never regain either.


For the heretics, regaining free will means returning to their decision to destroy Shepard + all organics, rendering your efforts pointless. Any other solution means their will is not free.

#205
Xilizhra

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Now that Sovereign is gone, why would they go back to worshiping it?

#206
AresXX7

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Xilizhra wrote...

Now that Sovereign is gone, why would they go back to worshiping it?


The Heretics "worshipped" the Reapers as a whole, not just one in particular.
By saying this, I'm referring to their belief that the Reapers, in general, are the pinnacle of A.I. evolution.
Bearing that in mind, another Reaper can just as easily "fulfill" the Heretic's ambitions all the same. 

Modifié par AriesXX7, 18 septembre 2010 - 12:34 .


#207
RGFrog

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Xilizhra wrote...
This is utterly wrong. Legion states that the virus will be transmitted to all heretic geth everywhere, using a pulse that's so freaking powerful that everyone has to flee the station just as fast as they would if it was exploding.


So, basically this pulse will be powerful enough to pass through stars and planets that otherwise tend to cast shadows where waves and particles are concerned...and evade black holes?

Sorry, but that's not going to happen and there's not a power source strong enough to make it happen throughout an entire galaxy. Doesn't work that way. All real-time communications in the ME universe are passed through mass relays. A pulse that the station puts out -- unless driven by a mass relay, the only FTL system in the galaxy and nothing claims that it was -- can only go as fast as light. It won't get to other star systems for YEARS. All one geth has to do is pass a warning via the ME relays and every heretic geth thereafter will be immune to the virus.

The only way to be sure a virus like this one gets to all geth is via the geth themselves. Either through direct and undetectable communication or some other form of immediate transference. Which also means the possibility exists for it to not be transferred and to be discovered.

The only heretics guaranteed to get the virus are the ones on the station. The only heretics guaranteed to die are the ones at the station if you choose that route.

You can believe Legion if you wish. But, he's just a collection of intelligences that are not all knowing and, like all intelligences, capable of making mistakes.

Modifié par RGFrog, 18 septembre 2010 - 02:48 .


#208
Fishy

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Are you a Paragon? Are you a comitted Paragon who hates how all those mean, pesky Renegades say you'd compromise your Paragon morals if it mattered? Are you a Paragon who hates being slighted as a person who can only maintain high morals if you are never challenged by them?

Well, here's you challenge to prove them wrong. Show them what being a real Paragon, of not only espousing but following the rules and never making that Renegade choice, really means. That you would never accept any help from Terrorists that you didn't absolutely need, that you would never stoop to any sort of crime or wrong action to support yourself just as you would demand from others, that you would never quit or compromise those laws and codes of conduct simply because it's convenient.

Think you can do it? Consider yourself a pure Paragon? Here are the five simple rules to see if you can walk the talk

.

1. Diplomacy first, always, never give up until the last attempt.

No Renegade choices, interrupts, or dialgoue tree bottom-choices can be picked. A full Paragon, after all, will always try to talk things out even if it doesn't look likely to succede, not open fire in the middle of dialogue like some Renegade. The choices an Ultimate Paragon can NOT make are Renegade persuades and interrupts.(Altered from stuck on top/middle choices, though those should be stressed.)

2. Lawkeeper: First, Foremost, Always.

Renegade Spectres like to think that laws don't apply to them. Paragons understand that laws exist for a reason, and that Spectre status is no excuse.  From the greatest diplomat to the lowest criminal, all are owed due process and protections of the law you hold dear. Paragons are the examples to be followed, but can you hold that sort of standard?

Thou shall not kill*, steal, or rob. Anyone. Stealing from the colonists on Horizon is forbidden. Stealing from the Quarians on the Alarai is forbidden. Stealing from the plague district on Omega is forbidden. Stealing from the Blue Suns is forbidden. Stealing from Hock is forbidden. Stealing from anyone, at any point, criminal or not, is forbidden. This includes intellectual property theft, ie data/technology stealing. If you didn't buy the technology, it's not yours.

If you're looting or hacking or bypassing any non-door security, you have failed.

*Since Stewie wants to be particular about it, in the sense of the original sense, thou shalt not murder (or kill unnecessarily).


3.. Not one iota owed to criminals and terrorists!

Do you hate terrorists? Do you hate criminals? Of course you do: you're a Paragon. You wouldn't have anything to do with them if you had a choice, and wouldn't let them have any claim to you.

Or so you'd like to say. But can you back that sentiment with actions, or suffering from lack?

Give nothing to any criminal person or group. Accept no illegal blood or drug money (or, in the case of the game, don't use the credits given). Keep track of the money given to you by anyone who wouldn't be legal on the Citadel.

Cerberus? Screw their mission payouts, they're terrorists who experiment on peoople and aliens. Aria? A crime lord. Anyone who would pay you to look the other way or help them in some criminal act, don't help them and don't accept or use their help. Smugglers, revenge-murderers, poachers, garden-world nukers, war-criminals, flay-people-with-their-minds-ers, those who would hide the truth to protect guilty men, everyone.

A Paragon must be universal, and can not succumb to neptism or favoritism.


4. No aid to Cerberus!

A big one. Cerberus is an abomination, an enemy of both the Alliance and the Council. You may be stuck with them for now, but they should not receive any assistance from you beyond what the mission absolutely requires. Nothing you have a choice to do should benefit them.

That means more than the Collector Base. That means more than sending them their stolen data. It means you aren't going to give them one piece of technology they could use that htey don't already have. Those tech bounty scans? Cerberus is paying you off to supply them with advanced technology. Those tech scans? Do you really think Cerberus doesn't keep them as well?

No. No no no. The Council will never believe you weren't allied with Cerberus if you spend the game handing them technology for credits (credits violating rule 3) and sharing technologies with them. Who knows what Cerberus could do with technology you can scan and steal (rule 2!) from the Collector Ship? And imagine if you handed them the plans to build miniaturized versions of Sovereign's main guns? Think of the destruction they could pose with that alone.

No. The Galaxy needs to be kept safe from Cerberus, not endangered by strengthening it.



5: Blow up the base.

Sort of mandated by rules 3 and 4, but just thought I'd make it clear.







And there they are. They won't be easy. They won't be gentle. It may, in fact, be one of the hardest playthroughs you've ever had. It will be so easy to compromise those morals, to Renegade and then self-justify. So very, very easy.

But who ever said Paragon was supposed to be the easy way?



1;Really tough. Because some renegade interupt are quite funny.What you're asking me =  meta gaming a paragon Shepard.That just plain boring

2:After reading this .. I just want to tell ya it's still a game and  if they put a container with loot  , i will loot it .Because it's here to be looted . I'm not going to  do this .. Or i end up with no credit and i normaly play on hardcore/insanity.
Just give me 10 millions credit with all upgrade at the beginning and i won't loot anything .

3:I think you don't realy understand the paragon way.They're not zealot.But  not going to kill someone to get something done.I always save the hostage in ME1 (BDTS) . Hard choice but sacrificing life for a terrorist just never.Next thing you know , police shoot the hostage to get the bank robber.It's not a solution.You're just a criminal/murderer with a badge(Shepard quotes)

4:Well i need to play the game .. That how thing work .I'm not working for Cerberus either.I'm trying to save the galaxy and they fund it . Sure it's nasty money but the alliance got nasty money also.I'm not a saint either.I kill people but when my shepard can avoid killing someone he will do it.It's just another corpse on my mind.

I am the only one that can save the galaxy?Who know?But it's my duty.After i destroy the base i turn my back to Cerberus . I'm not going to capture the Rachni queen for experimentation.Unless bioware force me to do it.

#209
Guest_Shandepared_*

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Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's also not really brainwashing so much as it is correcting a programming error; the conclusion it reaches isn't technically wrong, but it does seem more like a mental illness than a true choice.


Trolling is uncalled for.

Shandepard, that's referring to the Geth process, not the player choice.


My comment was a sarcastic one. The heretics are not suffering from a programming error. Their math is just fine.

#210
Xilizhra

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Sorry, but that's not going to happen and there's not a power source strong enough to make it happen throughout an entire galaxy.


Mass effect. It makes for wonderful plot hole spackle when you don't know how the technology works.



1;Really tough. Because some renegade interupt are quite funny.What you're asking me = meta gaming a paragon Shepard.That just plain boring



2:After reading this .. I just want to tell ya it's still a game and if they put a container with loot , i will loot it .Because it's here to be looted . I'm not going to do this .. Or i end up with no credit and i normaly play on hardcore/insanity.

Just give me 10 millions credit with all upgrade at the beginning and i won't loot anything .



3:I think you don't realy understand the paragon way.They're not zealot.But not going to kill someone to get something done.I always save the hostage in ME1 (BDTS) . Hard choice but sacrificing life for a terrorist just never.Next thing you know , police shoot the hostage to get the bank robber.It's not a solution.You're just a criminal/murderer with a badge(Shepard quotes)



4:Well i need to play the game .. That how thing work .I'm not working for Cerberus either.I'm trying to save the galaxy and they fund it . Sure it's nasty money but the alliance got nasty money also.I'm not a saint either.I kill people but when my shepard can avoid killing someone he will do it.It's just another corpse on my mind.



I am the only one that can save the galaxy?Who know?But it's my duty.After i destroy the base i turn my back to Cerberus . I'm not going to capture the Rachni queen for experimentation.Unless bioware force me to do it.


This isn't a challenge to be accomplished, more of a thought experiment (or, if you're cynical, a cheap jab at Paragon players for being hypocrites.).

#211
RGFrog

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Yep, an ME relay... but it wasn't sent out that way.

#212
Xilizhra

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RGFrog wrote...

Yep, an ME relay... but it wasn't sent out that way.

I think we can safely assume that Legion, in fact, knows how to do this and isn't just randomly pushing buttons.

#213
Guest_Shandepared_*

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If you infect the station with the virus it will not infect all heretics at once. It only infect them as they come into contact with the station, which could be a while for the more isolated holdouts. After all, there needs to be a reason you can rewrite the heretics but still have to fight get on Haestrom or in a few of the N7 missions.

#214
RGFrog

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Xilizhra wrote...
I think we can safely assume that Legion, in fact, knows how to do this and isn't just randomly pushing buttons.


Legion knows how to build an ME relay and somehow hide it inside the station?

You know, those giant gyroscopic things that you use to FTL a ship to another relay. And somehow they've kept it hidden. And he's been able to reprogram every mass relay to create a similar damaging pulse. Every Mass Effect Relay in the known galaxy. They are all going to pulse. And before hand there will be a warning message so all the craft can fly away to safety.

And that's if you choose to disregard that he specifically calls it a pulse and the cut scene is a pulse wave of energy that the Normandy gets away from by simply flying away... Not by using its own Mass Effect core to go FTL.

The only other FTL communication is inside Normandy SR2 via a quantum entanglement. Legion does not come even close to saying this is the technology he's using. And it wouldn't require any kind of pulse or high energy output if it were.

Is Legion just pressing buttons, obviously not. He disables an entire station, no matter your choice. But he's not magic, and that's what it would take to overcome the limits in this universe and wipe every heretic geth in the galaxy all at once.

It's just another plot whole that will either be glossed over or used in ME3. Most likely glossed over.

#215
Moiaussi

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Shandepared wrote...

If you infect the station with the virus it will not infect all heretics at once. It only infect them as they come into contact with the station, which could be a while for the more isolated holdouts. After all, there needs to be a reason you can rewrite the heretics but still have to fight get on Haestrom or in a few of the N7 missions.


Aren't all Geth of either group in touch with each other in close to real time via hyperspace relays? Otherwise much of what Legion said doesn't make much sense.

#216
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Moiaussi wrote...

Aren't all Geth of either group in touch with each other in close to real time via hyperspace relays? Otherwise much of what Legion said doesn't make much sense.


They use comm buoys IIRC.

#217
GGRush

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In fact you can't even get to Horizon.

You are recruiting a criminal and a vigilante. A Paragon's team must be composed of good alliance troopers!

#218
PsyrenY

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@ Dean and Xili: Ever hear the phrase "Give me liberty or give me death?" There is no third option, y'know?

#219
General User

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Living without freedom is an option, not the one I would choose, but it has proven surprisingly popular over the years…

#220
PsyrenY

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General User wrote...

Living without freedom is an option, not the one I would choose, but it has proven surprisingly popular over the years…


It is in fact very poular. Trillions of organisms on this planet manage it every day.

It is not an option I believe the geth would be particularly enamored of, however.

#221
Xilizhra

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The geth aren't losing their free will, their minds are just being changed for one decision. They'll have free will after that, they just likely won't want to go back to the Reapers due to changed opinions.

#222
PsyrenY

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Xilizhra wrote...

The geth aren't losing their free will, their minds are just being changed for one decision. They'll have free will after that, they just likely won't want to go back to the Reapers due to changed opinions.


Wrong. Every choice they make after that will be based on that "one decision." It's mental slavery.

#223
Xilizhra

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They'll still be making their own choices from then on.

#224
PsyrenY

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Xilizhra wrote...

They'll still be making their own choices from then on.


So they'll find another reason to attack Shepard and follow the Reapers? Given that that was "their own choice" and all.

#225
Xilizhra

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I doubt that, with their perspective fixed, they'll find another reason.