97 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

Xilizhra wrote...

I did. I've seen the thing before. She refuses to admit that it was Cerberus.

Because it wasn't.

[Xilizhra]

It was, but even if it wasn't, it would have been a good idea for her to falsely admit to get Jack to back off.

[PsyrenY]

Xilizhra wrote...

It was, but even if it wasn't, it would have been a good idea for her to falsely admit to get Jack to back off.

So it's okay for Miranda to accept blame for something neither she nor her organization even knew about, much less were responsible for, but it's not okay for Jack to concede that the actions of a splinter group do not necessarily reflect on the whole? Isn't that a double-standard?

By your logic, the Alliance should apologize to the Council and make reparations for everything Cerberus does, even though they are separate groups. How does that make an iota of sense?

[ajw]

Miranda has always struck me as being a somewhat insecure person. She was created as an investiment by a controlling, domineering man who saw her more as a pawn to be used for his own purposes than a daughter.



She ran away to Cerberus and TIM also uses her. Though he's a bit more subtle about it. The first person to really treat her as a person and not a tool and be interested in what she personally wants is Shepard.

[JPXD]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It was, but even if it wasn't, it would have been a good idea for her to falsely admit to get Jack to back off.

So it's okay for Miranda to accept blame for something neither she nor her organization even knew about, much less were responsible for, but it's not okay for Jack to concede that the actions of a splinter group do not necessarily reflect on the whole? Isn't that a double-standard?

By your logic, the Alliance should apologize to the Council and make reparations for everything Cerberus does, even though they are separate groups. How does that make an iota of sense?

Miranda should not have to accept the blame, I agree. But as an adult who is the leader of the Lazarus cell she should conduct herself in a better manner. She's dealing with someone she knows is emotionally unstable and yet she aggravates an already aggravated individual -- it's called common sense and good leadership skills to avoid such a confrontation or diffuse it.

[Xilizhra]

So it's okay for Miranda to accept blame for something neither she nor her organization even knew about, much less were responsible for, but it's not okay for Jack to concede that the actions of a splinter group do not necessarily reflect on the whole? Isn't that a double-standard?

Yes, it's a double standard. And it's perfectly fine, for two reasons: one, it wasn't a freakin' splinter group, and two, Miranda is a stable if insecure woman while Jack is a lunatic with serious emotional issues. It's not about pride, it's about not getting bulkheads torn out/your head smeared against a wall.

[JPXD]

Also I agree with Xil -- Cerberus is partially to blame for Jack's condition. As EDI points out TIM only allows for a certain number of cells to run at once in order to maintain personal oversight.



If he lost track of this one cell than TIM isn't as awesome as he thinks he is and I'm glad I told him and his goons to take a hike.

[PsyrenY]

JPXD wrote...

Miranda should not have to accept the blame, I agree. But as an adult who is the leader of the Lazarus cell she should conduct herself in a better manner. She's dealing with someone she knows is emotionally unstable and yet she aggravates an already aggravated individual -- it's called common sense and good leadership skills to avoid such a confrontation or diffuse it.

So being an adult means allowing your team to behave like children?

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, it's a double standard. And it's perfectly fine, for two reasons: one, it wasn't a freakin' splinter group, and two, Miranda is a stable if insecure woman while Jack is a lunatic with serious emotional issues. It's not about pride, it's about not getting bulkheads torn out/your head smeared against a wall.

1) It was. The recordings flat-out state they are lying to TIM. Deny that if you want.

2) Yes, let's make sure the lunatic knows she has the upper hand in any confrontation! Surely she'll respect us and honor our cause then! I'm surprised she DIDN'T take the Normandy on a joy-ride during your playthrough.

[Xilizhra]

So being an adult means allowing your team to behave like children?

Jack isn't on Miranda's team; she's on Shepard's. Jack's behavior is her own and Shepard's responsibility.

1) It was. The recordings flat-out state they are lying to TIM. Deny that if you want.

Lying about something. They never say what. Notably, TIM's end-of-mission summary seems to say that he's not in the least surprised by what was in the Teltin facility.

2) Yes, let's make sure the lunatic knows she has the upper hand in any confrontation! Surely she'll respect us and honor our cause then! I'm surprised she DIDN'T take the Normandy on a joy-ride during your playthrough.

Controlling Jack isn't Miranda's responsibility. Let Shepard worry about it.

[Lee-gion]

Either way TIM had to have known how they were getting their biotic-potential candidates.

[JPXD]

Optimystic_X wrote...

JPXD wrote...

Miranda should not have to accept the blame, I agree. But as an adult who is the leader of the Lazarus cell she should conduct herself in a better manner. She's dealing with someone she knows is emotionally unstable and yet she aggravates an already aggravated individual -- it's called common sense and good leadership skills to avoid such a confrontation or diffuse it.

So being an adult means allowing your team to behave like children?

Jack is a special case. If this argument was happening with Garrus, Thane, Tali, Mordin, or Jacob I would look at the situation differently. Jack is a human experiment, tortured as a small child to fight. If you expect Jack to act like an adult you're fooling yourself. Miranda should have known better.

[JPXD]

jonv1234 wrote...

JPXD wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

JPXD wrote...

Miranda should not have to accept the blame, I agree. But as an adult who is the leader of the Lazarus cell she should conduct herself in a better manner. She's dealing with someone she knows is emotionally unstable and yet she aggravates an already aggravated individual -- it's called common sense and good leadership skills to avoid such a confrontation or diffuse it.

So being an adult means allowing your team to behave like children?

Jack is a special case. If this argument was happening with Garrus, Thane, Tali, Mordin, or Jacob I would look at the situation differently. Jack is a human experiment, tortured as a small child to fight. If you expect Jack to act like an adult you're fooling yourself. Miranda should have known better.

Ultimately, though, control of the team and its internal dynamics is Shepard's responsibility. sure the characters could behave better, but then they would not be the people that they are. The whole point is getting the team to work together in spite of the differences in background, ideology, culture etc.

And yes, ME3 is a well anticipated game. But give them a chance to do it right out of the gate, so we don't have a slew of after release patches and millions of threads complaining about it.

I have a hard time subscribing to the thought that just because Shepard is the captain of the Normandy that everything is her problem.

The argument between Tali and Legion is definitely something for Shepard to handle - the transfer of data that could be deadly for the Quarians is something a captain should deal with. Any security leak would be. The argument between Jack and Miranda however is just a cat fight between two girls who don't like one another -- it doesn't carry the same weight.

Modifié par JPXD, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:36 .

[PsyrenY]

Xilizhra wrote...

Jack isn't on Miranda's team; she's on Shepard's. Jack's behavior is her own and Shepard's responsibility.

Then why are you blaming Miranda? It's Shepard's responsibility. And if Shepard comes down on one side or the other, s/he is the one who has failed to keep the mission as the priority, just as the game portrays it.

Xilizhra wrote...
Lying about something. They never say what. Notably, TIM's end-of-mission summary seems to say that he's not in the least surprised by what was in the Teltin facility.

"Not surprised" = "I knew they were up to something," not "I knew they were torturing a powerful biotic girl, falsifying their reports to me and killing dozens of biotic guinea pigs in the process."

Xilizhra wrote...
Controlling Jack isn't Miranda's responsibility. Let Shepard worry about it.

Again - SHE DID!

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
I sense Cerberus Indoctrination.

I am not a Cerberus supporter. I just don't believe people should be forced to own up to **** they didn't do just to mollify a madwoman.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:44 .

[Xilizhra]

"Not surprised" = "I knew they were up to something," not "I knew they were torturing a powerful biotic girl, falsifying their reports to me and killing dozens of biotic guinea pigs in the process."

Actually, if I recall, it says that he regrets that the last cleanup crew he sent to Pragia wasn't thorough enough.

I am not a Cerberus supporter. I just don't believe people should be forced to own up to **** they didn't do just to mollify a madwoman.

They don't want a bulkhead torn out?

[PsyrenY]

Xilizhra wrote...

Actually, if I recall, it says that he regrets that the last cleanup crew he sent to Pragia wasn't thorough enough.

That still doesn't mean he knew what was going on at Teltin while Jack was there.

Xilizhra wrote...
They don't want a bulkhead torn out?

Because she does that if you take Miranda's side, amirite?

That's foolish anyway. Why would she mess up the ship while she is on it? And if your justification is "because she's craaaaaaazy!" then it really doesn't matter what Miranda or Shepard does, if she decides to rip out a bulkhead she will rip out a bulkhead, logic is out the window at that point.

[Xilizhra]

That still doesn't mean he knew what was going on at Teltin while Jack was there.

It certainly doesn't mean that he didn't know either. And considering his control freak tendencies, I really don't trust him.

Because she does that if you take Miranda's side, amirite?



That's foolish anyway. Why would she mess up the ship while she is on it? And if your justification is "because she's craaaaaaazy!" then it really doesn't matter what Miranda or Shepard does, if she decides to rip out a bulkhead she will rip out a bulkhead, logic is out the window at that point.

It was an expression. My point is that Miranda should have just stopped the fight there because she's actually capable of being the better person, as opposed to Jack.

[PsyrenY]

Xilizhra wrote...

It certainly doesn't mean that he didn't know either. And considering his control freak tendencies, I really don't trust him.

Neither do I, but innocent until proven guilty and all that. And even if you're right and it's wholly TIM's fault, that still doesn't give her the right to take it out on/demand reparations of Miranda.

[

Xilizhra wrote...
It was an expression. My point is that Miranda should have just stopped the fight there because she's actually capable of being the better person, as opposed to Jack.

Whereas I think that bowing and scraping to Jack's every whim just because she's a biotic basketcase will do more harm to the mission in the long run than good. When you let her get her way just because she's dangerous, what happens when you give her an order she doesn't want to follow and lives are depending on it? Better to nip that crap in the bud.

Taking either side is wrong. Shepard is in charge, and this mission is too important for baggage and grudges. End of story.

[Xilizhra]

Neither do I, but innocent until proven guilty and all that. And even if you're right and it's wholly TIM's fault, that still doesn't give her the right to take it out on/demand reparations of Miranda.

There are no reparations demanded. All Jack wanted was for Miranda to say that Cerberus was wrong, just this once.

Whereas I think that bowing and scraping to Jack's every whim just because she's a biotic basketcase will do more harm to the mission in the long run than good. When you let her get her way just because she's dangerous, what happens when you give her an order she doesn't want to follow and lives are depending on it? Better to nip that crap in the bud.

Again, Shepard is the one holding Jack's leash, not Miranda. Miranda conceding wouldn't affect Shepard's ability to command.

Taking either side is wrong. Shepard is in charge, and this mission is too important for baggage and grudges. End of story.

I don't take sides, I Charm the fight away and keep both their loyalties.

[mopotter]

yes, I'm looking forward to it very much. I am looking forward to having Kaidan/Ash and Liara back in my team, and seeing what they do with the ME2 group and the story.



Nelly21 - I would LOVE to have a side quest where you have to rescue the Virmire survivor. It would justify my inner feeling that if you left them in the tower, they found a place to shelter or were taken by the geth.



But whatever they do, I am hoping for more than one ending and that one of those endings is a spectacular - fireworks - we won - LI and Shepard survived and can grow old together ending.

[mopotter]

JPXD wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Perhaps there'll be a canon amount of squadmates who died in the suicide mission (likely none), and who died in ME2 won't actually affect the game at all.

No intention to offend, but that's the worst idea ever.

How lazy would Bioware have to be to just IGNORE the outcome of your suicide mission. For a series that boasts how important the choices you've made up to this point are and will be it would simply be a cop out to just decide..."Well that's too much work! Let's just keep squadmates, X, Y, and Z alive!"

I do agree with this.  I want my choices in every game I've saved to count in ME3.  

If that means they do a deal like they did with Wrex, I'll live with it.  It would be pretty nice though if they used the Kaidan/Ash plan and had a spot for the crew that is blank if they died and if they lived you could go pick them up somewhere, or they were still on board.  I would happily change cd's as often as necessary.  :happy:

[NamiraWilhelm]

I cant wait, but on the other hand i dont want Shepards adventures to end.

ME is my crack at the moment, and i miss it! I found ME2 to have not great re play value, ive already played me1 like 8 times. Ive read the books and comics, ive done all the dlc. The litte tidbits we get from developers is all im getting thats new at the mo. I know we've got incursion soon, and im pretty sure theres a fourth book on its way.
But me3 so far away, and theyve said the dlc will be further apart from  now  tis sad.

[ERJAK2]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It was, but even if it wasn't, it would have been a good idea for her to falsely admit to get Jack to back off.

So it's okay for Miranda to accept blame for something neither she nor her organization even knew about, much less were responsible for, but it's not okay for Jack to concede that the actions of a splinter group do not necessarily reflect on the whole? Isn't that a double-standard?

By your logic, the Alliance should apologize to the Council and make reparations for everything Cerberus does, even though they are separate groups. How does that make an iota of sense?

Regardless of whether or not cerberus was directly involved with the atrocities committed there, cereberus set up that facility and as such everything that happened was their responsibility, whether it was negligence or malevolence doesn't really make any difference. Miranda was not even remotely responsible however and Jack was wrong to blame her.