116 réponses à ce sujet

[ExtremeOne]

Zanramon wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

as in the dark story that Bioware said it was going to be. there is nothing in ME 2 that reaches the level of darkness that Halo Reach has. 

Repeating a word and defining it are two different things.

  



dark as in having your squad mates die or seeing people die in the game and the sense of knowing things are going to get bad as well knowing that what ever you try to do will end up in failure. 

How are Bioware supposed to put that in Mass effect, unless you personally killed all your squad and Shepard for the "darkness"

   



simple its called sticking with your design goals if the game is suppose to be a dark game then Bioware should have did what it took to make it that way with out us the player having to do that for them. no where in Halo Reach does the player have to do something to make it a dark game because it is a very dark game with a very dark ending. in ME 2 if one wants it to be a dark game with a dark ending it requires the player to set that up. 

[ExtremeOne]

Mechanos689 wrote...

lol halo the covenant just glasses people and stuff + the flood just consume everything its just an organic problem there. + reach was destroyed its no big deal last stand stuff people die etc. halo began with a bang if you haven't been with the series since the first halo came out so basically its a retelling of how things happened


mass effect Collectors and reapers, they both destroy any opposition and turn you into their slaves or into one of "them"
they also have tech that's way more advanced
not to mention they took and destroyed way more colonies than the covenant ever did + the collectors were just one race while the covenant was a mix of aliens

in one game the big bad aliens shoot to kill

 in the other they tortuture and use you for their experiments

sorry mass effect 2 is darker   

If it really is a dark game then where was the dark stuff at . 

[heretica]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Also, lolhalo

[Lord_Caledore]

Panthro90 wrote...

Just finished Reach last night, and, yes, it is dark.

But, if you played through ME2 the first time cold, with no help and lost half your team mates and all of your crew (watching Kelly getting digested--dark) I think you would say ME2 was pretty dark.

Everyone here knows how to play it without losing anyone. In this case, not so dark. You tend to forget the feeling of failure and helplessness when you beat the game 4 or 5 times with no loses.

Precisely. I never liked the fact that you can (fairly easily) survive the suicide mission with everyone alive. It takes a lot of the emotional impact out of the game (compared to ME1, where you ALWAYS have a sense of loss). Of course you can have squadmates die if you choose to, but that's very different from having no choice.

[khevan]

I honestly think that we as gamers have gotten somewhat jaded, and I think Bioware didn't quite hit the mark on the storytelling aspect. Both have contributed to the whole "ME2 isn't dark!" idea.

As far as the storyline goes, ME2 has some very dark themes running thru it. Entire human colonies are totally vanishing without a trace. The only group who's willing to do anything about it is a horrible terrorist organization* who does sick experiments on children in the name of human advancement. Many of the loyalty missions, Mordin's in particular, deal with very dark, emotionally laden subjects. The quarian lady on the video message on the Alarei during Tali's loyalty mission? "Mommy-loves-you-very-much!! (explosion, she dies)"

I could go on and on. Bioware didn't quite hit the mark as far as I'm concerned, because the style of game ME2 is forces the "story" to be broken up somewhat into distinct pieces. There's no real way to connect the various threads, and since there were so many squadmates, the main story arc felt rushed as well. So the darkness inherent in the story itself didn't come thru as clearly as it could have if a little more time was spent on that story arc.

But we as players have also become jaded, because ME2 is very dark, even as is, but it seems that alot of people are either skimming the surface of the story without thinking beyond the words on the screen, or just look at what ME2 has and go "meh." I'm kinda in the "meh" department, myself, but I at least see where the game is dark...and could have been darker if done slightly differently.

All in all, I applaud Bioware's audacity to try such an overarching storyline with the "recruit the Dirty Dozen" approach (both mutually exclusive storytelling motifs to a large degree). I liked ME2, I liked the story in ME2. I just hope Bioware learns from what didn't work in ME2, and corrects it in ME3.

Edit here:  Forgot to put this in the original post:

*Horrible terrorist organization - depends on your viewpoint.  I'm not trying to spark a Cerberus is good/evil debate.

Modifié par khevan, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:14 .

[JaegerBane]

To be honest, I think people went a bit overboard in their expectations when the phrase 'a darker adventure' was first uttered. Some people on here seem to have expected a combination of The Ring meets The Crow with a dash of Deliverence.

Given that this game was supposed to approximate, to the first game, what Empire Strikes Back was in comparison to Star Wars, I'd say it achieved it. Obviously the game was never going to go from the space opera ME1 to something like Condemned, but the story, the choices, the occurances - they were all closer to the nerve than ME1.

[ExtremeOne]

JaegerBane wrote...

To be honest, I think people went a bit overboard in their expectations when the phrase 'a darker adventure' was first uttered. Some people on here seem to have expected a combination of The Ring meets The Crow with a dash of Deliverence.

Given that this game was supposed to approximate, to the first game, what Empire Strikes Back was in comparison to Star Wars, I'd say it achieved it. Obviously the game was never going to go from the space opera ME1 to something like Condemned, but the story, the choices, the occurances - they were all closer to the nerve than ME1.

   


Bioware said it would be a darker game but failed to show us that in the game. 

[Mechanos689]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Mechanos689 wrote...

lol halo the covenant just glasses people and stuff + the flood just consume everything its just an organic problem there. + reach was destroyed its no big deal last stand stuff people die etc. halo began with a bang if you haven't been with the series since the first halo came out so basically its a retelling of how things happened


mass effect Collectors and reapers, they both destroy any opposition and turn you into their slaves or into one of "them"
they also have tech that's way more advanced
not to mention they took and destroyed way more colonies than the covenant ever did + the collectors were just one race while the covenant was a mix of aliens

in one game the big bad aliens shoot to kill

 in the other they tortuture and use you for their experiments

sorry mass effect 2 is darker   

If it really is a dark game then where was the dark stuff at . 

the part were people get blended in order to become a huge  crime against  of nature?
the part where you realize what happened to the protheans?
also working with a terrorist organization that did a bunch of experiments such as toturturing and killing children in order to make the most powerfull biotic and also want to use the collector tech to make its own giant abomination.

the blue suns killing people ala holocaust style (Strongtium mule mission) and also selling humans to the collectors ( comic with aria in it)

uh the factory burning and hearing screams while in zaeeds mission if you go renegade its people burning have you seen actual pictures of people burning Its horrible.

Overlord  there is alot of morally questionable stuff in that mission more than halo ever had

sorry halo is just a religious war and stuff about human survival

mass effect is about human survival but also the horrible things humanity does in order to survive
its more apperant when you go paragon since shepard seems to be the only human with humanity left


halo = all humans are heroes look at the soldiers and and the admirals and the spartans there all fighting for a cause

mass effect = people are people there despicable and would do anything for survival and this is the calm before the storm

Modifié par Mechanos689, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:26 .

[LokiHades]

JaegerBane wrote...

To be honest, I think people went a bit overboard in their expectations when the phrase 'a darker adventure' was first uttered. Some people on here seem to have expected a combination of The Ring meets The Crow with a dash of Deliverence.

Given that this game was supposed to approximate, to the first game, what Empire Strikes Back was in comparison to Star Wars, I'd say it achieved it. Obviously the game was never going to go from the space opera ME1 to something like Condemned, but the story, the choices, the occurances - they were all closer to the nerve than ME1.

Agreed.

And how much dark do you people want? WH40K is awesome at GRIMDARK DARKNESS OF GRIMDARKINESS (not insulting here, just stating the fact, since I myself am a 40K fan).

[ExtremeOne]

Mechanos689 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Mechanos689 wrote...

lol halo the covenant just glasses people and stuff + the flood just consume everything its just an organic problem there. + reach was destroyed its no big deal last stand stuff people die etc. halo began with a bang if you haven't been with the series since the first halo came out so basically its a retelling of how things happened


mass effect Collectors and reapers, they both destroy any opposition and turn you into their slaves or into one of "them"
they also have tech that's way more advanced
not to mention they took and destroyed way more colonies than the covenant ever did + the collectors were just one race while the covenant was a mix of aliens

in one game the big bad aliens shoot to kill

 in the other they tortuture and use you for their experiments

sorry mass effect 2 is darker   

If it really is a dark game then where was the dark stuff at . 

the part were people get blended in order to become a huge  crime against  of nature?
the part where you realize what happened to the protheans?
also working with a terrorist organization that did a bunch of experiments such as toturturing and killing children in order to make the most powerfull biotic and also want to use the collector tech to make its own giant abomination.

the blue suns killing people ala holocaust style (Strongtium mule mission) and also selling humans to the collectors ( comic with aria in it)

uh the factory burning and hearing screams while in zaeeds mission if you go renegade its people burning have you seen actual pictures of people burning Its horrible.

Overlord  there is alot of morally questionable stuff in that mission more than halo ever had

sorry halo is just a religious war and stuff about human survival

mass effect is about human survival but also the horrible things humanity does in order to survive
its more apperant when you go paragon since shepard seems to be the only human with humanity left

   




it would have been nice if Bioware had made all that the real focus and showed it through the game more 

[JaegerBane]

LokiHades wrote...
Agreed.

And how much dark do you people want? WH40K is awesome at GRIMDARK DARKNESS OF GRIMDARKINESS (not insulting here, just stating the fact, since I myself am a 40K fan).

To be honest, if we're talking specifcally dark sci-fi, I'd say the FEAR saga is the best so far, of any medium. I'd classify 40k as space opera (probably on par with Starcraft - dark-ish, scary, but not psychologically disturbing).

Modifié par JaegerBane, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:27 .

[ExtremeOne]

JaegerBane wrote...

LokiHades wrote...
Agreed.

And how much dark do you people want? WH40K is awesome at GRIMDARK DARKNESS OF GRIMDARKINESS (not insulting here, just stating the fact, since I myself am a 40K fan).

To be honest, if we're talking specifcally dark sci-fi, I'd say the FEAR saga is the best so far, of any medium. I'd classify 40k as space opera (probably on par with Starcraft - dark-ish, scary, but not psychologically disturbing).

  



FEAR 1 was a more darker game than ME 2 is so i agree the FEAR games are pretty dark 

[khevan]

JaegerBane wrote...

To be honest, I think people went a bit overboard in their expectations when the phrase 'a darker adventure' was first uttered. Some people on here seem to have expected a combination of The Ring meets The Crow with a dash of Deliverence.

Given that this game was supposed to approximate, to the first game, what Empire Strikes Back was in comparison to Star Wars, I'd say it achieved it. Obviously the game was never going to go from the space opera ME1 to something like Condemned, but the story, the choices, the occurances - they were all closer to the nerve than ME1.

I agree with you, for the most part.  I just think that Bioware tried to do too many things in one game, and it didn't quite work.  Of course this is all my opinion, but the whole "dirty dozen" type of story is mostly about character interaction, character development, and less on overall story plotlines.  There's enough of an overall story arc to keep the story moving forward, but it's usually minimal.  In a story, this works because you can connect threads from each "character" story arc to form a more cohesive whole.  In a video game, it could work if it were more linear, but ME2 has enough of a sandbox style of gameplay that it's much harder to connect or relate character story arcs to each other.

Bioware didn't seem to make much of an effort to have any of the character missions affect any character except the one on the recruitment/loyalty mission, and Shepard, but even Shepard is affected only minimally.  He gains the use of a squadmate.  He gains the use of a squadmate's loyalty power.  The only way Shepard is affected by character missions is if s/he is romancing one of the squad.  That romance only starts after the loyalty mission, so that kinda changes things there.

The above is kind of a long winded explanation, but it is because of the (necessary) seperateness of each story arc that the entire game feels disjointed to some degree.  There's not much continuity.  Yes, there's an attempt, by saying "We're recruiting a badass team for a dangerous mission," but that's a flimsy base for a story unless there's other stuff holding the story together, like the connections between characters.  It's a character based story, so character interactions should be important.  They're just basically non-existant in ME2.

Finally, because of the disjointedness to the main story arc (the vanishing colonists and the Collectors and Reapers and stuff), the dark, emotionally charged elements to the story don't have the same punch that they could have.  It's not that the darkness isn't there, it's that it doesn't show itself well.

Again, this is all my opinion, and I'm impressed that Bioware tried it.  It just didn't quite work, in my opinion, so I hope Bioware drops this story formula and does something a little more tied together for ME3.

[Mechanos689]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Mechanos689 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Mechanos689 wrote...

lol halo the covenant just glasses people and stuff + the flood just consume everything its just an organic problem there. + reach was destroyed its no big deal last stand stuff people die etc. halo began with a bang if you haven't been with the series since the first halo came out so basically its a retelling of how things happened


mass effect Collectors and reapers, they both destroy any opposition and turn you into their slaves or into one of "them"
they also have tech that's way more advanced
not to mention they took and destroyed way more colonies than the covenant ever did + the collectors were just one race while the covenant was a mix of aliens

in one game the big bad aliens shoot to kill

 in the other they tortuture and use you for their experiments

sorry mass effect 2 is darker   

If it really is a dark game then where was the dark stuff at . 

the part were people get blended in order to become a huge  crime against  of nature?
the part where you realize what happened to the protheans?
also working with a terrorist organization that did a bunch of experiments such as toturturing and killing children in order to make the most powerfull biotic and also want to use the collector tech to make its own giant abomination.

the blue suns killing people ala holocaust style (Strongtium mule mission) and also selling humans to the collectors ( comic with aria in it)

uh the factory burning and hearing screams while in zaeeds mission if you go renegade its people burning have you seen actual pictures of people burning Its horrible.

Overlord  there is alot of morally questionable stuff in that mission more than halo ever had

sorry halo is just a religious war and stuff about human survival

mass effect is about human survival but also the horrible things humanity does in order to survive
its more apperant when you go paragon since shepard seems to be the only human with humanity left

   




it would have been nice if Bioware had made all that the real focus and showed it through the game more 

they did but its about choice and if we can catch those visual and audio cues and bother to see the dialog and not just press spacebar so the game could continue faster without reading
Milage varies person to person

Modifié par Mechanos689, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:32 .

[JaegerBane]

ExtremeOne wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

To be honest, I think people went a bit overboard in their expectations when the phrase 'a darker adventure' was first uttered. Some people on here seem to have expected a combination of The Ring meets The Crow with a dash of Deliverence.

Given that this game was supposed to approximate, to the first game, what Empire Strikes Back was in comparison to Star Wars, I'd say it achieved it. Obviously the game was never going to go from the space opera ME1 to something like Condemned, but the story, the choices, the occurances - they were all closer to the nerve than ME1.

   


Bioware said it would be a darker game but failed to show us that in the game. 

They said it was a darker game, true. You're the one who took that to mean you'd be getting a David Fincher re-imagining of ME.

[ExtremeOne]

Mechanos689 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Mechanos689 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Mechanos689 wrote...

lol halo the covenant just glasses people and stuff + the flood just consume everything its just an organic problem there. + reach was destroyed its no big deal last stand stuff people die etc. halo began with a bang if you haven't been with the series since the first halo came out so basically its a retelling of how things happened


mass effect Collectors and reapers, they both destroy any opposition and turn you into their slaves or into one of "them"
they also have tech that's way more advanced
not to mention they took and destroyed way more colonies than the covenant ever did + the collectors were just one race while the covenant was a mix of aliens

in one game the big bad aliens shoot to kill

 in the other they tortuture and use you for their experiments

sorry mass effect 2 is darker   

If it really is a dark game then where was the dark stuff at . 

the part were people get blended in order to become a huge  crime against  of nature?
the part where you realize what happened to the protheans?
also working with a terrorist organization that did a bunch of experiments such as toturturing and killing children in order to make the most powerfull biotic and also want to use the collector tech to make its own giant abomination.

the blue suns killing people ala holocaust style (Strongtium mule mission) and also selling humans to the collectors ( comic with aria in it)

uh the factory burning and hearing screams while in zaeeds mission if you go renegade its people burning have you seen actual pictures of people burning Its horrible.

Overlord  there is alot of morally questionable stuff in that mission more than halo ever had

sorry halo is just a religious war and stuff about human survival

mass effect is about human survival but also the horrible things humanity does in order to survive
its more apperant when you go paragon since shepard seems to be the only human with humanity left

   




it would have been nice if Bioware had made all that the real focus and showed it through the game more 

they did but its about choice and if we can catch those visual and audio cues and bother to see the dialog and not just press spacebar so the game could continue faster without reading
Milage varies person to person

  


ME 2 is all about choice thats why it fails at being a dark game with a dark story. because its to much basedon player choice and the main story fails to do its job. 

[horacethegrey]

To be honest I never found ME2 to be as dark as the first game. Cause let's face it, as dated as it seems now, Mass Effect had some really dark **** and some of the missions nailed the nightmare atmosphere really well. There was a feeling of claustrophobia and hopelessness where it seemed like Shepard and crew wouldn't be able to get out of there in one piece. ME2? You didn't feel trapped or helpless, Shepard and co were now kicking ass and taking names with the sequel's focus on action rather than exploration and discovery. The shift in tone would be similar to how the first Alien movie (Ridley Scott) led to Aliens (James Cameron).

Don't get me wrong, I still think ME2 is miles better than the first game and much more fun to play. But it's unfortunate that Bioware lost much of the dark and dreary atmosphere they meticulously created. It didn't help that they made ME2 10x funnier than the first game, which I thought was a bit lacking in the humor department. 

I can't really comment on Halo Reach, since I've not played it yet. Then again I've not played much of the Halo series. While I think Bungie has crafted some fine games, the Halo universe has never drew me in the same way Mass Effect does. 

Modifié par horacethegrey, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:38 .

[JaegerBane]

ExtremeOne wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

LokiHades wrote...
Agreed.

And how much dark do you people want? WH40K is awesome at GRIMDARK DARKNESS OF GRIMDARKINESS (not insulting here, just stating the fact, since I myself am a 40K fan).

To be honest, if we're talking specifcally dark sci-fi, I'd say the FEAR saga is the best so far, of any medium. I'd classify 40k as space opera (probably on par with Starcraft - dark-ish, scary, but not psychologically disturbing).

  



FEAR 1 was a more darker game than ME 2 is so i agree the FEAR games are pretty dark 

They're also completely different games, with completely different stories. If you honestly expected the kind of psychological horror of FEAR 1 and 2 in a sequel to ME1 simply because Bioware said it was a 'darker' game then you only have yourself to blame, as it's an unrealistic expectation.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 17 septembre 2010 - 05:38 .

[redplague]

Hello Kitty Online is a darker game than both ME2 and Halo Reach because of the amount of paedophiles that play the game.

[ExtremeOne]

JaegerBane wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

To be honest, I think people went a bit overboard in their expectations when the phrase 'a darker adventure' was first uttered. Some people on here seem to have expected a combination of The Ring meets The Crow with a dash of Deliverence.

Given that this game was supposed to approximate, to the first game, what Empire Strikes Back was in comparison to Star Wars, I'd say it achieved it. Obviously the game was never going to go from the space opera ME1 to something like Condemned, but the story, the choices, the occurances - they were all closer to the nerve than ME1.

   


Bioware said it would be a darker game but failed to show us that in the game. 

They said it was a darker game, true. You're the one who took that to mean you'd be getting a David Fincher re-imagining of ME.

  



When a developer says their game will be a dark game with a SM were everyone can die and they do not live up to any of that unless the everyone dies part is set up by the player its fair to call them out on that . Bungie backed up every bit of their talk with Halo Reach being a dark game with a dark ending. 

[ExtremeOne]

JaegerBane wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

LokiHades wrote...
Agreed.

And how much dark do you people want? WH40K is awesome at GRIMDARK DARKNESS OF GRIMDARKINESS (not insulting here, just stating the fact, since I myself am a 40K fan).

To be honest, if we're talking specifcally dark sci-fi, I'd say the FEAR saga is the best so far, of any medium. I'd classify 40k as space opera (probably on par with Starcraft - dark-ish, scary, but not psychologically disturbing).

  



FEAR 1 was a more darker game than ME 2 is so i agree the FEAR games are pretty dark 

They're also completely different games, with completely different stories. If you honestly expected the kind of psychological horror of FEAR 1 and 2 in a sequel to ME1 simply because Bioware said it was a 'darker' game then you only have yourself to blame, as it's an unrealistic expectation.

 



I'm not blaming myself i am simply posing a topic that no one has touched on yet 

[stewie1974]

JaegerBane wrote...

LokiHades wrote...
Agreed.

And how much dark do you people want? WH40K is awesome at GRIMDARK DARKNESS OF GRIMDARKINESS (not insulting here, just stating the fact, since I myself am a 40K fan).

To be honest, if we're talking specifcally dark sci-fi, I'd say the FEAR saga is the best so far, of any medium. I'd classify 40k as space opera (probably on par with Starcraft - dark-ish, scary, but not psychologically disturbing).

Really???

Are you refering to the video games? Or have you read the entire codexs from the actual rpg and battles.

The four lords of chaos are deeply disturbing, the video games fail to deliver the atmosphere true...... but the games and the resources are the darkest stuff you'd be likely to find... hell even the space marines themselves are sinister as hell once you read up on their backgrounds.

The horus hearsy, that's what I'd like to see...

[Mechanos689]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Mechanos689 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Mechanos689 wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Mechanos689 wrote...

lol halo the covenant just glasses people and stuff + the flood just consume everything its just an organic problem there. + reach was destroyed its no big deal last stand stuff people die etc. halo began with a bang if you haven't been with the series since the first halo came out so basically its a retelling of how things happened


mass effect Collectors and reapers, they both destroy any opposition and turn you into their slaves or into one of "them"
they also have tech that's way more advanced
not to mention they took and destroyed way more colonies than the covenant ever did + the collectors were just one race while the covenant was a mix of aliens

in one game the big bad aliens shoot to kill

 in the other they tortuture and use you for their experiments

sorry mass effect 2 is darker   

If it really is a dark game then where was the dark stuff at . 

the part were people get blended in order to become a huge  crime against  of nature?
the part where you realize what happened to the protheans?
also working with a terrorist organization that did a bunch of experiments such as toturturing and killing children in order to make the most powerfull biotic and also want to use the collector tech to make its own giant abomination.

the blue suns killing people ala holocaust style (Strongtium mule mission) and also selling humans to the collectors ( comic with aria in it)

uh the factory burning and hearing screams while in zaeeds mission if you go renegade its people burning have you seen actual pictures of people burning Its horrible.

Overlord  there is alot of morally questionable stuff in that mission more than halo ever had

sorry halo is just a religious war and stuff about human survival

mass effect is about human survival but also the horrible things humanity does in order to survive
its more apperant when you go paragon since shepard seems to be the only human with humanity left

   




it would have been nice if Bioware had made all that the real focus and showed it through the game more 

they did but its about choice and if we can catch those visual and audio cues and bother to see the dialog and not just press spacebar so the game could continue faster without reading
Milage varies person to person

  


ME 2 is all about choice thats why it fails at being a dark game with a dark story. because its to much basedon player choice and the main story fails to do its job. 

you can always choose till you get it rigth lol?

anyways getting back on topic
the only questionable thing that happened in halo is the spartan project which was saddening and horrible but thats just about it

theres more stuff in mass effect anyways

if you need dark pallets or grey or gritty settings such as condemmed or manhunt in order to feel anything then thats just you

[Pacifien]

This discussion would probably be more productive if someone would actually mention the qualities that define "dark." Is it the lighting? Is Halo Reach cast in shadows? Is it in relation to games from completely different developers with their own design goals? Is it in comparison to the first game? What elements from other games or the first game come across as equal or darker to Mass Effect 2? Give me something to work with here, all I can tell is that whatever dark is, Mass Effect 2 apparently is not it.

[Pacifien]

But back into moderator mode, trim your posts, people. Everyone is reading the same thread as you, you don't need to quote back everything to them. Stick to the relevant parts of the quotes that let people know who or what you might be referring to, get rid of the rest.