116 réponses à ce sujet

[Panthro90]

Dark Sci-Fi = Cold Equations



Read that short story in high school. It bummed me out for weeks.

[mopotter]

Panthro90 wrote...

Just finished Reach last night, and, yes, it is dark.

But, if you played through ME2 the first time cold, with no help and lost half your team mates and all of your crew (watching Kelly getting digested--dark) I think you would say ME2 was pretty dark.

Everyone here knows how to play it without losing anyone. In this case, not so dark. You tend to forget the feeling of failure and helplessness when you beat the game 4 or 5 times with no loses.

Agree.  I didn't lose everyone, but I lost part of the crew including Kelly and Gabby and part of my team.  I found it rather depressing, and if that is what the OP means by dark, ME2 was dark.

[kraidy1117]

Both games are dark on there own merits. Reach I found a bit darker because in ME2 you win, you do not win in Reach. Through out the whole game you are fighting a losing battle, you are seeing the planet fall behind you to the point where you everyone has to evac the planet, your whole team dies but one person, you stay behind so Keyes can leave the planet and sacrifice your life for the future of humanity.



Plus there is one part where you witness a ship filled with civilians who you where trying to save get blown to hell and you can't save them. Plus Reach was better written then ME2, tho that's not saying a lot....

[Luvinn]

If by darkness you mean feeling 'bummed out', then im going to say i never felt as bad in any video game, as when Aeris died in FF7.

[PsyrenY]

Pacifien wrote...

This discussion would probably be more productive if someone would actually mention the qualities that define "dark." Is it the lighting? Is Halo Reach cast in shadows? Is it in relation to games from completely different developers with their own design goals? Is it in comparison to the first game? What elements from other games or the first game come across as equal or darker to Mass Effect 2? Give me something to work with here, all I can tell is that whatever dark is, Mass Effect 2 apparently is not it.

That's what I said! <_<

[JaegerBane]

Exile Isan wrote...

I don't know I think there is quite a lot of 'dark' things about ME2. Watching Kaidan give my Spacer/Sole Survivor Shep the finger was depressing, seeing what the Reapers turned the Protheans into was even more depressing. Watching Garrus be torn apart by he lust for revenge was particularly disheartening to watch particularly for my Colonist/Ruthless Paragon Shep. She's been down that road and it wasn't pretty. Watching Tali be willing to give up everything to save face for a father that seemed to brush her off all her life was depressing. Thane's history with his son was depressing and the fact that my Earthborn/War Hero Shep fell for him and he's dying is depressing. Samara's having to kill her daughter was particularly depressing (saddest mission ever). And learning what happened to the colonists left me horrified.

I would say there is a fine line between a 'dark' story and a depressing story. In fact I found many of the situations you listed above as unsettling, rather than depressing. The point where Ash just went off on one had me feeling like punching her in the face - I assumed that was so that a Shep of any alignment could enter into a relationship with a new character with a clear conscience.

All said and done, I thought the early comparison drawn between ME2 and Empire Strikes Back has been the most apt. Yes, there were disturbing revelations and damage done, and some pretty messed-up things were happening, and although it can end on a high note, the true scale of the looming threat is revealed regardless. It felt like a 'dark' adventure, as it should, rather than a David Fincher film, which apparently, some people were expecting.

[Slayer299]

Exile Isan wrote...
Still one of my favorites, but a game doesn't need to have every freaking person in the game dying a horrible grisly death to considered 'dark' in my books.

Who wants to see that?
Dark is not having clear cut choices of Good or Bad, but not Bad and Worse or just not clear-cut in virtually everything and I am not referring to NPC choices (granted, there were some good dark moments with Tali and some others as you mentioned), but in decisions that will affect things on a larger scale than one of your teammates. 

[Whiteshiro]

You sire are in a lions cave. And your the lamb. Better watch out you don't get eaten alive.....

[JaegerBane]

kraidy1117 wrote...

 Reach I found a bit darker because in ME2 you win, you do not win in Reach.

You knew you don't win in Reach before you picked up the controller. That, imo, kills a hell of a lot of the impact of the story. Hell, the whole bloomin' storyline started off as scene-setting just so when you were playing the first game you knew that the Covenant weren't just some bunch of idiots that might kill some people - they meant human extinction.

[kraidy1117]

JaegerBane wrote...

kraidy1117 wrote...

 Reach I found a bit darker because in ME2 you win, you do not win in Reach.

You knew you don't win in Reach before you picked up the controller. That, imo, kills a hell of a lot of the impact of the story. Hell, the whole bloomin' storyline started off as scene-setting just so when you were playing the first game you knew that the Covenant weren't just some bunch of idiots that might kill some people - they meant human extinction.

Knowing and feeling are two diffrent things. In ME2 you can make the game lighter, you can't in Reach. Everytime you thought you won, something would come around and destroy that hope, plus you can't save your team, while you can in ME2. There's a lot of things that Reach did better then ME2. Some people however refuse to beleive that a FPS can have a good story and great atmopshere however.

[Xilizhra]

I admit, I felt quite depressed and disconnected at the beginning of the game, what with being dragged along by Cerberus in a mission I didn't even really believe at first. The actual presence of Collectors didn't help because all it meant is that I really would have to work with these people. Joker's willing turn to Cerberus wasn't good either, and the second Normandy just led me to feeling extremely hollow.



Omega... well, that sucked too, but things began to improve a bit after I returned to some actual action, pulling Mordin out of the slums and saving them at the same time, and meeting Garrus for the first time in two years was awesome. It was about that time that I realized that I could actually do something to help the galaxy again, and I got more into it all. Returning to the Citadel was... bittersweet kind of, but mostly good because I got to reconnect with a place from my old life, even if it was changed slightly and even if the Council had backpedaled after I saved them. By the time I reached Ilium, my inner balance had been restored and I was ready to really fight again.

[mopotter]

ExtremeOne wrote...

Zanramon wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

ExtremeOne wrote...

as in the dark story that Bioware said it was going to be. there is nothing in ME 2 that reaches the level of darkness that Halo Reach has. 

Repeating a word and defining it are two different things.

  



dark as in having your squad mates die or seeing people die in the game and the sense of knowing things are going to get bad as well knowing that what ever you try to do will end up in failure. 

How are Bioware supposed to put that in Mass effect, unless you personally killed all your squad and Shepard for the "darkness"

   



simple its called sticking with your design goals if the game is suppose to be a dark game then Bioware should have did what it took to make it that way with out us the player having to do that for them. no where in Halo Reach does the player have to do something to make it a dark game because it is a very dark game with a very dark ending. in ME 2 if one wants it to be a dark game with a dark ending it requires the player to set that up. 

Personally, i don't play games that leave me depressed and wanting to run my car into a tree.  I can read the news for that.  And if I pick up a game that has a depressing ending, I'll sell it as soon as I've played it or as soon as I find out the ending sucks.  
 
My husband played the first Halo and liked it, I tried it and got bored.  Got the 2nd one for my husband, he got bored.   Halo, as you mentioned, is not an rpg, it's a linear game where you follow the sidewalk till you get to where the game developers want you, to the one and only ending they set up.  

 I want choices and BW gives me that.  If some of those choices bring on a dark ending fine.  But I want my choices to mean something and that's why i play rpg games.  It's why I play BW games.

ME2 has a number of different endings including one where everyone can die, depending on the choices you make in the game.  IMO that counts as dark.  

[Babli]

Back in my days, liquifing humans was considered as pretty dark. Silly me.

[Lvl20DM]

As others have said, Bioware called this the dark second chapter. They succeeded, even if the darkness wasn't as pitch black as some expected. I think the devs even referenced Empire when they were promoting this game. ME 1 wasn't darker, I don't think, but it was eerie in ways that ME 2 isn't (though the collector ship and derelict reaper had their moments, to be sure).

[DashRunner92]

ExtremeOne wrote...

DashRunner92 wrote...

Clearly a troll post from this sentence: "its clear Bungie knows how to make a dark and gritty game. Mass Effect 2 was suppose to be a dark and gritty game but it failed on many levels."
Their two different developers who wanted to make their own game in their vision. Their's no set line for how dark a game has to be. 
Halo:Reach is suppose the be how Reach was glassed.. so obviously it's going to be darker than ME2. ME2 is dark, but you clearly missed the point of ME2. You talk like Reach was depressing and you expected ME2 to be depressing. In term of the setting, Reach is darker because the planet is doomed. In terms of game plat or cinametics or enemies, ME2 is way darker than Reach, you got reapers and collectors, you got children and parents turned into goo stuff for the reaper. You got a woman who's only beloved daughter was killed by Samara's daughter, you got a whole ship of people who had families stuck on a planet and slowly killed or gone made from the poison food on the planet. You got a facility were you find out kids were kidnapped and used for experiments, living in terrible conditions, abused, and eventually killed. But at the same time, you got this bad-ass hero who is going to fight for what he believes, he's going to plunge himself into a suicide mission. He is a symbol of good and will fight to save everyone even if he is to die.

   



True they are games from 2 different developers but that does not mean the subject of ME2's dark story or lack their of can not be discussed.  Bioware said ME 2 would be a dark game well if it was then where is the dark parts of the game at. if you mean by showing in video form on freedom's progress of collectors taking humans or them landing on horizon and freezing people as being dark then thats not being dark at all. One thing Bungie does is it keeps the dark tone and feeling of Halo Reach through out the game. 

Did you just skim through my post? Examples? How about read the entire end of my post. ME2 is dark, but it's not suppose to be dark dark, of course it's going to have it's nice good moments. No one wants a game to be just completely depressing. And it's not just the freezing. Have you even completed ME2? The people get turned into the goo stuff, screaming hopelessly for help. The part if you fail to save kelly, is pretty much darker than anything in the Halo series itself other than the actual glassing of the planet. And I'm sorry but the dark tone is broken multiple times in Halo Reach. 

[zsom]

ExtremeOne wrote...

 After watching the videos of Halo Reach single player on you tube. its clear Bungie knows how to make a dark and gritty game. Mass Effect 2 was suppose to be a dark and gritty game but it failed on many levels.  Do you think Mass Effect 2 is a dark game 

It's difficult to compare them. Reach had it really easy. It  was the last game of the franchise, so it didn't need any characters surviving, it was a prequel so it didn't need a happy ending. The main story was already set up, it didn't need to waste time on explaining who the spartans were. Every event was happening in a combat zone, and you had an unlimited supply of allied soldiers who could die a slow tear jerking death.

ME on the other hand needed the characters to survive (at least in some playthroughs), not all events took place on dark and gloomy space stations (it's pretty hard to make Illium look dark), and they had to keep it together for ME3. Even under these circumstances almost every ME mission was somehow connected to death, misery, loss of loved ones. (Corpses being burned in the street, the last goodbye of the quarian mother, Thane dying (spelling?) of a kind of lung cancer, Morinths murders, Samara hunting and killing her own child). I guess you should compare ME2 with Halo 2/3 or ODST. And ME3 can be (and hopefully is going to be) darker, since it will concentrate on just one event, and anyone will be disposable.

[Whatever42]

Shandepared, you really do want a grim game, don't you? I don't think Bioware ever envisioned creating Dark City meets Hellraiser. And I think they wanted a combination of moods and settings in the game. You had the BSG of the Quarian fleet, the Blade Runner of Omega, the Star Wars Imperal-like city of Illium, the mad-max wasteland of Tchunka. This isn't a 10 hour linear shooter.

[PsyrenY]

Babli wrote...

Back in my days, liquifing humans was considered as pretty dark. Silly me.

Enslaving them to impale each other on spikes too. But no, let's all teabag each other and call each other ****s! OMG SO DARK

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 17 septembre 2010 - 07:15 .

[kraidy1117]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Babli wrote...

Back in my days, liquifing humans was considered as pretty dark. Silly me.

Enslaving them to impale each other on spikes too. But no, let's all teabag each other and call each other ****s! OMG SO DARK

That's multiplayer, not the story. The point that Reach was better written then ME2 is dam sad.

[mopotter]

Shandepared wrote...

Mechanos689 wrote...

i admit i laughed it took you a while but those made me laugh thank you for making my day

The list took me about two minutes. I hadn't looked at the thread since making that first post.

Burdokva wrote...

I honestly felt the game had a far better, atmospheric and dark start. Up until the point I was already on the Normandy and started recruiting; or after Omega, if you go there first, as Mordin and Garrus' acquisition missions, plus the entire setting of Omega, were darker and more realistic than the rest of the game.

This is something I picked up on when I was making my list. The game WAS quite dark from the start until around the time I reached the Citadel. Freedom's Progress had wonderful atmosphere. When I first played I felt a little lost. The music and visuals really gave me this sense of forboding. It had me guessing about the enemy and what the plot was going to be (I already knew the basics, of-course). I kept wondering how we were going to thwart this new enemy.

Omega made me feel depressed. I had this sensation that Shepard was out of place, that the galaxy had moved on without him and he didn't belong anymore. The music in Afterlife made me imagine sitting there in the bar and trying to drink away my regrets. It was a sad place, I thought. Mordin's and Garrus' recruitment missions were intense or at other times sad.

After I left Omega I visited the Normandy crash site. Now that was dark. It was very sad, eerie, and the flashbacks made me nostalgic for the first game. I also got the feeling my Shepard was longing for his old ship and his old mission. He felt lost again. As with Freedom's Progress the music and visuals here really enhanced the mood.

The Citadel... was less dark, but still pretty good. Things start to get a bit campy when you do all the paragon or intimidate options (namely the ones I listed). None the less, the police state that Udina had set and the racial tension was a great touch. It was clear that the galaxy was now a worse place than it had been at the start of Mass Effect. I was kind of yearning for those comforting tunes that played in the Wards. Another rather "dark" moment I thought was when you talk to Lia'Vael. For a brief moment when she's explaining what happened you can hear her voice start to break, as though she's about to cry. That tugged at my heart strings a bit. It's clear that she's very shaken up by the situation.

After that... the darkness in the plot mostly fades away, perhaps with the exeption of the Collector ship. The problem I think starts on Horizon. The mission takes place at the wrong time... setting during the middle of the day gives us a clearer view of the Collectors. A bright sunny day just doesn't make for the same sadness, forboding, or fear. Perhaps Horizon should have taken place in the middle of the night, or during the rain. Perhaps we should have come across people trapped in pods who were frantically screaming and trying to escape. That would have enhanced the mood.

Ilium there is where it all falls apart. The entire place is a little wacky. There are a few tense moments in Thane's recruitment mission and when you listen to the asari by the cab service after giving the info to Thax's representative. Over all though, the place has too many in-jokes.

On biotics and superheroes... I basically agree with you, but for different reasons. I'm fine with what they did with biotics. All of it seems like a logical application of them. If you can create a singularity to pull enemies then why not use one to pull yourself in a given direction? I can totally see biotics being used to give you less mass, or more mass, enabling better jumps, softering landings, or harder punches.

My issue is with character design. Our squadmates not wearing armor makes it hard for me to take them seriously. Sorry, Miranda, and Samara, but I can't respect a woman who fights in high heels and shows off cleavage like she's a super-hero in some 12 year-old boy's comic book. I suppose with so many squadmates the developers thought it would be too hard to design actual armor for all of them that would be unique and memorable. Whatever the case...

This I can agree with, and if this is what those who say it wasn't dark are talking about, I get it.   I especially agree about some of the crew not wearing armor.  

But it seemed like some were complaining that by giving us choices the darkness was diminished and they would rather have a game without choices.  That I disagree with,  having choices was the most important part of the game for me.

nice post.  

[Sheepie Crusher]

Halo is just Mass Effect for children, that is all.

Modifié par Sheepie Crusher, 17 septembre 2010 - 07:21 .

[Ghurshog]

Sheepie Crusher wrote...

Halo is just Mass Effect for children, that is all.

I had to chuckle at this as its pretty common among those that think Halo as a setting doesn't have a in depth backstory.

From having read all the novels (5 or 6 of them) and played the Halo games for their story not the game's multiplayer I can definately say it has an appealing story if you have a taste for that genre. 

It might not be for everyone but to call Halo's story a dumbed down version of Mass Effect is simply not true.

And in truth the story of Master Chief is far darker and tragic then that of Commander Shepard's in my opinion.

How is it tragic you ask?

Hundreds of children from 5-9 years old, profiled and kidnapped and replaced by flash clones (techno babble) placed in military camps where they are indoctrinated for the purposes of forming covert companies of elite soldiers to serve the current human military. These children are raised as soldiers once recruited from then on. 

Once they are old enough they are put through a special augmentation process that kills roughly 30% of all individuals that go through it in order for them to be physically capable of using a special suit of power armor specifically designed for the cover military group. (At no point do they get a choice in this)

These individuals' world view is molded into them again they have no choice but to comply. 

The Master Chief is just one of these survivors. 

This is simply for starters. 

If your interested I would suggest simply reading the novels and you will get a real sense of the story for Halo.

Modifié par Ghurshog, 17 septembre 2010 - 07:43 .