98 réponses à ce sujet

[Homebound]

My soldier has both Inferno Ammo, and lvl 1 Warp Ammo.

Playing in Insanity, I noticed that the Inferno ammo did OBSCENELY more damage against Barrier compared to the lvl 1 Warp ammo.

Is this because my Inferno ammo is a higher level? Or have I stumbled on to something?

My understanding with weapon damage is, the ammo power damage is added first, then the weapon damage is added on to that. Even then, that doesn't explain why Inferno ammo does more damage vs barrier unless if it was effective vs barriers.

What do you guys think?

[JaegerBane]

That is a bit odd. The current understanding of ammo powers is that the extra damage from ammo effects only take place at all if the defence in question (or health) is around for it to take effect. Conventional wisdom would have stated that neither ammo would have done that much, but level 1 Warp Ammo should have taken the lead slightly (though in practice, I;d be surprised to see 15% extra damage have that much effect on a basic barrier).

Perhaps a video posting would illustrate this?

[Homebound]

I dont have a video, but I have SQUAD Cryo Ammo. It does the same amount of damage, possibly a little bit less than lvl 1 warp ammo.



I noticed this the most when I had Hardened Adrenaline Rush on. I had inferno, HAR, and shot Harby in Insanity.



While out of HAR, Inferno took harby's barriers down in 3-4 shots from a Vindicator. (My squad, Miranda and Mordin were dead from the Scion...) While the lvl 1 Warp ammo, while I cant recall how many shots, I do remember it did a lot less damage than inferno.



I hope someone can help out and show a vid.

[Niemroth]

That's odd but did you use the same weapon against the barrier?

Modifié par Niemroth, 17 septembre 2010 - 04:59 .

[JaegerBane]

Just_mike wrote...

I dont have a video, but I have SQUAD Cryo Ammo. It does the same amount of damage, possibly a little bit less than lvl 1 warp ammo.

I noticed this the most when I had Hardened Adrenaline Rush on. I had inferno, HAR, and shot Harby in Insanity.

While out of HAR, Inferno took harby's barriers down in 3-4 shots from a Vindicator. (My squad, Miranda and Mordin were dead from the Scion...) While the lvl 1 Warp ammo, while I cant recall how many shots, I do remember it did a lot less damage than inferno.

I hope someone can help out and show a vid.

I think you need to put this through a proper test to get anything concrete out of this. Do you mean 3 or 4 shots/bursts from the Vindi? Did you try to use the Vindi with Warp Ammo and count the number of shots/bursts it needs? Did you try it with automatic, single-shot and burst type weapons? Why are you bringing in squad cryo ammo into the comparison? What weapons are you using with it?

Level 1 Warp Ammo does very little extra damage - 15% is pretty difficult to see unless you're counting shots and looking for it.

[ryoldschool]

Maybe its because you have a lot of upgrades. I just did collector ship trap mission and I had 5 AR upgrades, 4 SG upgrades. I was trying to see the difference between squad cryo and squad incendary so I ran thru it three times. I didn't see much difference - everything pretty effective. Now that LotSB dlc is out you can get a lot of upgrades before that mission and it buffs the guns enough that the barriers come down from Mattock and shotgun that much faster - then you get to the health and incendary does its thing.



We discussed the ammo thing in another thread and the model is that when the bullet is fired the engine looks at the defense thats up ( even if one drop ), and if that one drop is resistant to the ammo power then the ammo power has no effect for that bullet ( even if it breaks thru the defence ). So like JaegerBane said the warp ammo should have done more damage to barriers ( but not to health ).

[Bozorgmehr]

Inferno Ammo does nothing against barriers; level 1 Warp Ammo will be better, always, against barriers that is - Warp Ammo is only ammo that actually receives damage bonus against barriers, all the other types are useless; they'll kick in the moment barrier is removed on the successive shot(s) only (except shotguns)



What weapon were you using? If it wasn't a SG. you must be wrong. Just test it again, and if you're sure about this I'll record some testing videos to see what happens.

[Homebound]

Im doing Samara's loyalty mission now. The Asari Vanguard's Barrier dropped faster with Inferno ammo.

[ryoldschool]

dude, you mean recruitment...

[sinosleep]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

I could swear I saw one Collector panicking from the Inferno Ammo CC Effect, still with Barrier up.

That right there is why I use inerno ammo on EVERY mission, regardless of protection, except for mission that are 95% synthetics. Even if you don't get the damage bonus, it's worth it for the CC alone.

[Homebound]

Hmm...Im starting to think that, AR and Inferno does more damage to barriers than a lvl 1 Warp ammo in AR.

[mosor]

Just_mike wrote...

Hmm...Im starting to think that, AR and Inferno does more damage to barriers than a lvl 1 Warp ammo in AR.

Barriers go down quickly on most enemies using an assault rifle anyway. Warp ammo isn't worth it compared to the CC you get from inferno. The only time I'd consider using warp ammo is on an infiltrator that wants that one shot kill without the cloak (or close to it)

[Homebound]

mosor wrote...

Just_mike wrote...

Hmm...Im starting to think that, AR and Inferno does more damage to barriers than a lvl 1 Warp ammo in AR.

Barriers go down quickly on most enemies using an assault rifle anyway. Warp ammo isn't worth it compared to the CC you get from inferno. The only time I'd consider using warp ammo is on an infiltrator that wants that one shot kill without the cloak (or close to it)

What about vs bosses with Barriers? Is having lvl 1 Warp ammo not worth it?

EDIT: Like the praetorian for example.

Modifié par Just_mike, 18 septembre 2010 - 12:17 .

[OniGanon]

For effectiveness vs Barrier, you should be comparing on a target like Harbinger or a Praetorian. On normal enemies, using a weapon effective vs Barriers (smg, shotgun) means high level ammo powers that work vs health is going to be better than lv1 Warp ammo.

[mosor]

OniGanon wrote...

For effectiveness vs Barrier, you should be comparing on a target like Harbinger or a Praetorian. On normal enemies, using a weapon effective vs Barriers (smg, shotgun) means high level ammo powers that work vs health is going to be better than lv1 Warp ammo.

Even on Harbringer or the praetorian, a SMG or an assault rifle rips through barriers fast enough that you probably wont notice the extra damage from a point in warp ammo. Warp ammo is a garbage skill unless you put it on a sniper rifle, which isn't as effective on barriers or shields as other weapons are.

Modifié par mosor, 18 septembre 2010 - 12:21 .

[JaegerBane]

mosor wrote...

OniGanon wrote...

For effectiveness vs Barrier, you should be comparing on a target like Harbinger or a Praetorian. On normal enemies, using a weapon effective vs Barriers (smg, shotgun) means high level ammo powers that work vs health is going to be better than lv1 Warp ammo.

Even on Harbringer or the praetorian, a SMG or an assault rifle rips through barriers fast enough that you probably wont notice the extra damage from a point in warp ammo. Warp ammo is a garbage skill unless you put it on a sniper rifle, which isn't as effective on barriers or shields as other weapons are.

I wouldn't necessarily rate it as 'garbage' per se - the 50% boost to damage against everything except shields is noticeable both on single-shot weapons that do a lot of damage and weapons with rates of fire fast enough to interfere with the DoT that you see on stuff like Incendiary.

It's probably not worth putting on a class that already has Inferno ammo but it's a long way from being useless.

On level 1 Warp Ammo, though... yeah, not great. Then again, no ammo is all that great at level 1.

[Thompson family]

JaegerBane wrote...


.... Then again, no ammo is all that great at level 1.

That about sums it up. The lowest leve ammo I have is L2 disruptor -- the absolute minimum required to unlock incindiary. Never use it, though.

[jwalker]

JaegerBane wrote...

On level 1 Warp Ammo, though... yeah, not great. Then again, no ammo is all that great at level 1.

1 point in AP is not that bad...

[Homebound]

Im in Insanity though...1 point might be...It might make a difference.

[mosor]

JaegerBane wrote...


I wouldn't necessarily rate it as 'garbage' per se - the 50% boost to damage against everything except shields is noticeable both on single-shot weapons that do a lot of damage and weapons with rates of fire fast enough to interfere with the DoT that you see on stuff like Incendiary.

It's probably not worth putting on a class that already has Inferno ammo but it's a long way from being useless.

On level 1 Warp Ammo, though... yeah, not great. Then again, no ammo is all that great at level 1.

If I play a class with no ammo powers and using a rapid fire weapon, I'd rather invest in AP ammo or preferably with my playstyle use someone's squad incinidiary or disruptor. The former gives me 70% damage to health and armor while rapid fire weapons take out any barrier really quickly. Squad incindiary is just 10% less damage than a maxed out warp ammo. While it only affacts armor and health, armor usually the hardest section to take down using a rapid fire weapon. It also creates panic on a target getting hit when down to health, and I have 10 skill points to invest in something else.  I still say warp ammo isn't worth it unless you're playing an infiltrator using a widow.

Modifié par mosor, 19 septembre 2010 - 03:47 .

[JaegerBane]

mosor wrote...
If I play a class with no ammo powers and using a rapid fire weapon, I'd rather invest in AP ammo or preferably with my playstyle use someone's squad incinidiary or disruptor. The former gives me 70% damage to health and armor while rapid fire weapons take out any barrier really quickly. Squad incindiary is just 10% less damage than a maxed out warp ammo. While it only affacts armor and health, armor usually the hardest section to take down using a rapid fire weapon. It also creates panic on a target getting hit when down to health, and I have 10 skill points to invest in something else.  I still say warp ammo isn't worth it unless you're playing an infiltrator using a widow.

I think you're missing the point on the ammo, mosor. Warp Ammo is a type that trades raw punch for versatility. The argument above doesn't seem consistent, as at one stage you write off 10% reduction in damage as worth the CC on undefended opponents but at another stage consider 20% damage boost to be worth losing *50%* damage boost against Barriers.... on the basis that 'rapid fire weapons take down any barrier quickly', a meaningless statement when made in reference to a comparison of ammo powers. The rate of fire is virtually irrelevant to how fast a given weapon takes down a Barrier - SMGs favour barriers etc, but an Avenger takes them down at the same speed as equivalent level of armour while things like Revenants and Mattocks actually favour armour penetration over Barriers, so in those cases your'e actually experiencing weaker overall defence-busting performance by selecting fire or AP ammo. Not to mention that any heavy pistol takes down armour 'quickly', so using the same logic, AP ammo is superfluous too.

You don't seem to favour a particular aspect of ammos, preferring side effects one second then damage the next. Warp Ammo is generally only worth it when you make use of all of it's features, which is primarily why I noted that characters without ammo powers make best use of it. I would argue the Soldier is also a class that can make effective use of it, as it plugs the only non-cooldown defence gap they have while not interferring with AR use.

Reliance on squadmate ammos is also a dubious proposition - it isn't a simplistic case of 'I save 10 poins for something else' - aside from being weaker, squadmate ammos are affected by issues with the AI, they lack special features in some cases, they rely on you bringing the right squadmate, and they can easily conflict with each other. They're useful in a pinch, but it certainly isn't a case of being able to rely on them to the same degree as using your own ammo power.

Ultimately, Warp Ammo's prime benefits are that it's virtually always effective at whatever you're shooting at, with the sole issue of shields. It doesn't matter if your opponent is a synth or organic, it doesn't matter what weapon you are using barring sheilded enemies, and if you have biotic support - either as an Adept or with a biotic squadmate - your damage against undefended targets *dwarfs* any other ammo power in the game. AP ammo shares some of these bonuses but trades versatility for a 20% boost against armoured and undefended - but not biotic'd - targets. What you pick depends heavily on how your play, but in conclusion, it simply isn't accurate to summarise all of this into 'only worth it on a Widow'.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[JaegerBane]

jwalker wrote...

JaegerBane wrote...

On level 1 Warp Ammo, though... yeah, not great. Then again, no ammo is all that great at level 1.

1 point in AP is not that bad...

It's 30% damage boost against health and one defence. For an ammo power that draws all it's worth from doing maximum damage, that it isn't all that great. No side effects, no crowd control, one defence. Meh.

[swn32]

If your primary weapon is a rapid fire weapon like tempest (which has a damage multiplier of 1.5 for barriers and shields, but none for armor), then you are better off with AP ammo. The damage multiplier doesnt apply to the extra damage due to ammo power making it even less significant.

The extra 50% damage that warp ammo would do against barriers scales down to approx 10-12% difference due to other buffs like weapon damage upgrades and shield piercing upgrades. Where as the 70% of AP ammo scales down to around 40% difference (since tempest doesnt have any armor damage multiplier nor is there any smg upgrade that does the same). Taking warp ammo instead of AP ammo gives 50% to armor and health, which scales down to 28%.

Again this is assuming all research upgrades are done and damage maximizing talents and armor parts are chosen. So i totally agree with mosor's post, warp ammo has little utility to a class with only rapid fire weapons.

EDIT: Also note that the actual damage SMGs do to armor is much less compared to barriers, making AP ammo even more useful and Warp more redundant.

Modifié par swn32, 19 septembre 2010 - 08:41 .