1279 réponses à ce sujet

[B3taMaxxx]

Do the people at PC Gamer have spell check? The reactive combat sounds fun.

[Amioran]

Monica83 wrote...

Silly haters...

Anyway i express logical reasons...And seems i'm not alone to don't want paraphrase system in DA2 but many others... So i'm not the evil witch that want ruin anything..

Theatre Letterature Movies are not RPG.. so what you saying don't have any sense

Yet they are mediums like games, and since you obstinate yourself quoting ME as an example proving something I do the same.

Your "logical" reasons are build on: A) not understanding clearly what the term you use it really means and discarding all you don't like to hear that doesn't appeal to what you think it is the truth.

Mine is not a personal attack against you, but on the argument proposed.

Modifié par Amioran, 20 septembre 2010 - 10:09 .

[The Masked Rog]

Monica83 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

I dont see what the problem is with this article. All I see so far is an awesome game that we are months away from being able to play. At this point, if you're one of the "zomg they're not making it like Origins so it's going to suck..." people then you really do, need to just stfu, accept the fact that your precious DA:O is over and done with, build a bridge with that wood you were using for your soap boxes, and get over it.

You have two choices at this point: Either get on board with DA2 and be hopeful for it and anticipate playing it, or Dont get on board, stop your whining, and move on with your lives. Ive been telling these people for a while that their complaining was pointless and now, it seems yet again, I was right. Wave goodbye to your "crpg" and say hello to DA2. It's a fact of life, now get over it.

Silly haters...

Anyway i express logical reasons...And seems i'm not alone to don't want paraphrase system in DA2 but many others... So i'm not the evil witch that want ruin anything..

Theatre Letterature Movies are not RPG.. so what you saying don't have any sense

Fine. Doesn't really matter. They are doing it. A lot of people like it. Are these people not objective. You are not the holder of the truth. You are just making yourself look silly. And a troll.

[foodstuffs]

I'm seeing double now, so my little game here is done for the night. With a few notable exceptions it's been fun.



I believe Monica's point is, a paraphrase needs to be written in such a way that it dictates what you, the player, actually intended to say. Monica appears to be assuming that because ME's D-wheel was one way, then DA's D-wheel will be the same. Given our car analogy, it's not outside of reason. Also, knowing exactly what your character is saying is better than having to guess and potentially be wrong, thus breaking immersion for the sake of reloading to fix it.



Unfortunately, ALL games have faults in dialogs. There have been numerous occasions, in the billion games I've played, where I have picked a conversation option that was worded correctly, and yet the NPC reacted in such a way that was totally unpredictable given the context of the conversation.



Regardless, from what I've heard about the D-wheel, I do not like it and do not want it, but I'll reserve my judgement.

[Amioran]

foodstuffs wrote...

I believe Monica's point is, a paraphrase needs to be written in such a way that it dictates what you, the player, actually intended to say.

And why should that be the only way to do it? I don't get it. There are many ways to do things, and not necessarily different ways are less correct. This reminds me of how many times in art people assumed something the "correct" way to do something to be always proven wrong after.

A paraphrase doesn't need to be written in a specific way to be "correct". It is just the deepness of the dialogue that makes it bad or good, not the approach. This is like saying that if a thing is not black than it MUST be white. Total demagogy.

Modifié par Amioran, 20 septembre 2010 - 10:15 .

[Monica83]

...

Rog i'm not a troll i simply give logical reasons and explanations.. My criticism don't destroy nothing i also suggested a possible solution for the problem.. I'm sorry if you don't get it maybe is my problem maybe im not good to explain well..

And rog i never called you Hater.. only aradace..
I sayd only paraphrase system are inaccurate and not optimal for a roleplay game.. I also explained why and i gived the reasons.. We must whait some devs clarify that point.. From what i eared we have a lot of gameplay information and a vague information of what is it the core of roleplay... Character,Story, Dialogue system..
Im' just tired to see people don't find a nice argomentation to answer of what i sayd.. And begins to climb in mirrors quoting site about word spelling make car,book,movie examples... We are talking about rpg..

Modifié par Monica83, 20 septembre 2010 - 10:20 .

[Amioran]

Monica83 wrote...

I sayd only paraphrase system are inaccurate and not optimal for a roleplay game.. I also explained why and i gived the reasons..

Ignore me if you want but STOP USING THAT WORD NOT CLEARLY UNDERSTANDING ITS MEANING, please. ALSO A DIALOGUE SYSTEM IS A PARAPHRASE ONE, do you get it? Read the meaning of the term I've given earlier, and *maybe* you will understand why. With what you are stating now you are actually pretending that ALL type and form of dialogue (being it in itself ALWAYS a paraphrase) in an RPG is not optimal, do you get it?

Then your reasons are based only on subjective parameters. A good argument is based on objetive ones, taking all things in consideration. Maybe you lack the knowledge to do so, I don't know, but anyway this is how things are.

Modifié par Amioran, 20 septembre 2010 - 10:20 .

[MDarwin]

Amioran wrote...

MDarwin wrote...
Don't forget opinions "vary" so much.   My opinion is my opinion. Your opinion is yours. A matter of fact opinion can only be wrong, if my opinion has been proven wrong.

In fact this particular opinion is proven wrong in many cases. An opinion is just that "opinion", it always depends if it is funded on something or not. Having an opinion doesn't make the same automatically correct.

Let's say my opinion is, that the world is flat. Now you can "really" prove that my opinion was, or is wrong.
**But in that case your argument fails.

I already proven many times why that opinion is incorrect. The "building up tension without understanding what course will take the dialogue" has been used many times in literature, cinema, theatre with great effect and by great authors. Godard based all his settings on that, Artaud created an "animated theatre" just for that, symbolic poetry (above all on Mallarmé) has based poetry on that parameters. Burroughs and Kafka have done the same with prose, etc. etc.

So, as you can see, THAT opinion is clearly wrong.

In your opinion maybe. Those great Authors you mention, does not mean that everyone sees them that way either. They might have won great prices and so on. That does not make them great Authors, in everyones mind.
To me therefor it is a mute argument.

I for one do not find them that great.  But that is only my opinion, not  anybody elses.

That is a matter of taste/opinion.

[-Semper-]

foodstuffs wrote...

I believe Monica's point is, a paraphrase needs to be written in such a way that it dictates what you, the player, actually intended to say. Monica appears to be assuming that because ME's D-wheel was one way, then DA's D-wheel will be the same.

the thing with the dialogue wheel (and the changing market) is, that all the lines have to be voiced. this comes with a strict budget were words count and drives into a plan that reads something like this: the word count for a companion is limited at 2000 words. the word count for a quest giver is limited at 200 words and so on. before all senteces were voiced this max count was way higher and there was enough room to flesh out a story, a character or notes on the side. now everything has to be straight foward and on the point which simply drives to a shorter story - therefore there is a high chance that a dialogue wheel could make the story less deep.

[Amioran]

MDarwin wrote...

In your opinion maybe. Those great Authors you mention, does not mean that everyone sees them that way either. They might have won great prices and so on. That does not make them great Authors, in everyones mind.
To me therefor it is a mute argument.

There are objective parameters why those authors are considered great, so no, thanks, that's not opinion. Again, you can think what you want, still it doesn't mean you are correct.

I for one do not find them that great.  But that is only my opinion, not  anybody elses.

Hmmm, sorry but I bet that if you know either one of those I am the pope, really. No offense meant but it is inconcepible your "opinion" elsewhere

That is a matter of taste/opinion.

Art is not only a matter of "taste" or opnion. There are objecive parameters, style, technique, breaking new grounds, etc. You can also not like Caravaggio but that's your problem because you don't have parameters to judge his work in the correct way, not surely the truth of the matter. You can also not like a thing still know that it is a great achievment etc. but this usually happens to those that are more concerned about truth than "taste".

[Monica83]

Now semper this is really a nice reply it' opens other point of wiews about it.. well done

It's not a simple subjective problem its a real logical problem.. A general paraphrased answer ala mass effect isn't accurate an this can (already happened) make to your character say a complete different thing from what you meaned.. And also.. We have less immersive factor because the char use words that you have not selected... Simple... Logical..

Modifié par Monica83, 20 septembre 2010 - 10:40 .

[SirOccam]

foodstuffs wrote...

Monica appears to be assuming that because ME's D-wheel was one way, then DA's D-wheel will be the same. Given our car analogy, it's not outside of reason.

But the car analogy works against that argument. It's meant to explain exactly why it is outside of reason.

[MDarwin]

Amioran wrote...

MDarwin wrote...

In your opinion maybe. Those great Authors you mention, does not mean that everyone sees them that way either. They might have won great prices and so on. That does not make them great Authors, in everyones mind.
To me therefor it is a mute argument.

There are objective parameters why those authors are considered great, so no, thanks, that's not opinion. Again, you can think what you want, still it doesn't mean you are correct.

I for one do not find them that great.  But that is only my opinion, not  anybody elses.

Hmmm, sorry but I bet that if you know either one of those I am the pope, really. No offense meant but it is inconcepible your "opinion" elsewhere

That is a matter of taste/opinion.

Art is not only a matter of "taste" or opnion. There are objecive parameters, style, technique, breaking new grounds, etc. You can also not like Caravaggio but that's your problem because you don't have parameters to judge his work in the correct way, not surely the truth of the matter. You can also not like a thing still know that it is a great achievment etc. but this usually happens to those that are more concerned about truth than "taste".

You know what, I get the feeling if someone does not "submit" to your supirior mind. You just don't like it, do you?

My parameters for good/bad art and "the written word", are mine. Not yours or anybody elses, thank you.
Franz Kafka war ein Deutscher. Just like I ones was. I still don't like his works.

You can not prove me wrong. Art and literature are a matter of taste/liking. Not everyone likes J.R.R. Tolkien either.
It is up to each individual to define his personal sense/opinion on Art and literature, or in general.  <_<

Not yours or mine.

Modifié par MDarwin, 20 septembre 2010 - 11:38 .

[The Masked Rog]

Monica83 wrote...

Now semper this is really a nice reply it' opens other point of wiews about it.. well done

It's not a simple subjective problem its a real logical problem.. A general paraphrased answer ala mass effect isn't accurate an this can (already happened) make to your character say a complete different thing from what you meaned.. And also.. We have less immersive factor because the char use words that you have not selected... Simple... Logical..

What if I think it is more imersive because you don«'t know exactly what words your char is going to say? Like assigning a tone and then (just like in a real conversation) the words you said aren't exactly what you thought before opening your mouth.

[Aradace]

Monica83 wrote...

Aradace wrote...

I dont see what the problem is with this article. All I see so far is an awesome game that we are months away from being able to play. At this point, if you're one of the "zomg they're not making it like Origins so it's going to suck..." people then you really do, need to just stfu, accept the fact that your precious DA:O is over and done with, build a bridge with that wood you were using for your soap boxes, and get over it.

You have two choices at this point: Either get on board with DA2 and be hopeful for it and anticipate playing it, or Dont get on board, stop your whining, and move on with your lives. Ive been telling these people for a while that their complaining was pointless and now, it seems yet again, I was right. Wave goodbye to your "crpg" and say hello to DA2. It's a fact of life, now get over it.

Silly haters...

Anyway i express logical reasons...And seems i'm not alone to don't want paraphrase system in DA2 but many others... So i'm not the evil witch that want ruin anything..

Theatre Letterature Movies are not RPG.. so what you saying don't have any sense

Doesnt matter what you think at this point.  The FACT of the matter is that this is where the game is going.  ****** and moan all you want but it's going to change NOTHING about DA2.  If you dont like it where it's gone, dont play it.  It's that simple.  From the article is apparent (VERY apparent it seems) that those of you crying and complaining about the game's direction is basically being ignored (which I find hilarious TBH.)  EA/BioWare wants to go in the direction of a more "cinematic" experience and that's where it's going to go and has already went.  Saying something like this isnt "popular" is simply wrong.  Why? because the 171 MILLION copies of Reach on it's first day say so.  Yes, Reach and DA are two completely different games.  I know that. However, this "mentality" is what is apparently popular (apparently as in looking at the sales) and if EA/BioWare can follow suit with a more "action" oriented game and make more profits at the cost of losing its "minority" fan base (yes, all of you whining are technically in the minority it seems as your "concerns" are apparently being ignored) then they're going to go for it.

Again, you dont realize that BioWare ISNT the one calling all the shots anymore.  It's EA for the most part.  If EA says they want it to go in this direction, then that's precisely where it's going to go.  No amount of whing, pissing, ****ing, or moaning is going to change what has already been done with DA2.  So again, either give the game a chance and play it when it comes out....Or DONT play it and just stop crying and get over it.

Modifié par Aradace, 20 septembre 2010 - 11:48 .

[Monica83]

No Rog the problem is that system works well if you have a total premade character like geralt of rivia of the witcher saga for example... But in a game that allow you to create your hero is way better have the control to what you are sayng to others... Paraphrase schematic system in fact have this problem.. Allows you to make an idea of what you character are going to say but its' not accurate and you have not control of the world that your character tell.. This turns you only in a spectator with low interaction and don't make feel the character you make.. yours.. This is why the old dialogue style is better you read the entire answer and you have the time to select the answer that fit better with your character.. And you can't make something wrong because is all written so you have the complete control of it...
I have nothing aganist the dialogue wheel unless inside they have the old dialogue system and not a schematic paraphrase system ala Mass Effect...

I continue to say Mass Effect because is a perfect example how paraphrasing in schematic way can kill the immersion or the interaction in a game.. In fact much people says Shepard have a defined personality.. From what a read Hawke of dragon age 2 takes his personality from the player.. But if this is only for the tone and i have the same system of mass effect is also limited...

To improve a nice dialogue well you can find a nice way.. Place old style dialogues with clear well written answers in it plus add the tone.. And it will be awesome... And you can't do nothing wrong..

And sorry Auradace but i have the right to share my concerns and confront my wiew with other people for this exist forums.. If you think im silly just don't read me and don't answer me... I can survive this

Modifié par Monica83, 20 septembre 2010 - 11:51 .

[The Masked Rog]

Monica83 wrote...

No Rog the problem is that system works well if you have a total premade character like geralt of rivia of the witcher saga for example... But in a game that allow you to create your hero is way better have the control to what you are sayng to others... Paraphrase schematic system in fact have this problem.. Allows you to make an idea of what you character are going to say but its' not accurate and you have not control of the world that your character tell.. This turns you only in a spectator with low interaction and don't make feel the character you make.. yours.. This is why the old dialogue style is better you read the entire answer and you have the time to select the answer that fit better with your character.. And you can't make something wrong because is all written so you have the complete control of it...
I have nothing aganist the dialogue wheel unless inside they have the old dialogue system and not a schematic paraphrase system ala Mass Effect...

I continue to say Mass Effect because is a perfect example how paraphrasing in schematic way can kill the immersion or the interaction in a game.. In fact much people says Shepard have a defined personality.. From what a read Hawke of dragon age 2 takes his personality from the player.. But if this is only for the tone and i have the same system of mass effect is also limited...

To improve a nice dialogue well you can find a nice way.. Place old style dialogues with clear well written answers in it plus add the tone.. And it will be awesome... And you can't do nothing wrong..

And sorry Auradace but i have the right to share my concerns and confront my wiew with other people for this exist forums.. If you think im silly just don't read me and don't answer me... I can survive this

My Sheppards were certainly created by me and each was unique. I didn't feel that I lacked control of what I said to others. Just like in real life I formed an idea of what I wanted to respond and then the words flow naturally. You don't think everything you are going to say before you say it. You imagine the general tone and intent and ten sometimes your own wording can surprise you. This is real life. 

[Monica83]

this is because you are lucky to fit with that character..but you tryed to make shepard act in different way?... If you try it you will see its limited.. Because is a premade character with a defined personality..

[Aradace]

Monica83 wrote...

this is because you are lucky to fit with that character..but you tryed to make shepard act in different way?... If you try it you will see its limited.. Because is a premade character with a defined personality..

You ever stop to think that EA/BioWare doesnt CARE about immerison as much as you do?  That much should be apparent to you seeing as how they've already said they're going for a more "cinematic" experience. 

[Sidney]

Monica83 wrote...

Now semper this is really a nice reply it' opens other point of wiews about it.. well done

It's not a simple subjective problem its a real logical problem.. A general paraphrased answer ala mass effect isn't accurate an this can (already happened) make to your character say a complete different thing from what you meaned.. And also.. We have less immersive factor because the char use words that you have not selected... Simple... Logical..

I'm amazed all you continue to belive that the all written out for you dialog options in DAO reflect "what you want to say". You are either channeling people at Bioware or lying because the DAO dialog options don't reflect what I want to say - the odds that they could capture your exact words are almost impossible.  Yes you know exactly what your character won't be saying but so what if those options are not what you want to say. The dialog in DAO or BG or FO reflect some strain of what I want to say
but only because the dialog options are a mask for: "good answer", "evil answer", or "what answer".


People must be dense to not get what the ME2 dialog is going to say. There is one bad spot (FemShep and Jacob in one dialog instance), and it is the only one anyone can ever give, where Shep gives the wrong tone to a dialog and it hits like a brick but other than that there's nothing wrong with the wheel.

You've never had complete control of what your character says. All it can do are mouth the worlds Bioware put into their mouths. Spoken or written you've never had that level of control and no matter the delivery mechanism.

[Aradace]

Sidney wrote...

Monica83 wrote...

Now semper this is really a nice reply it' opens other point of wiews about it.. well done

It's not a simple subjective problem its a real logical problem.. A general paraphrased answer ala mass effect isn't accurate an this can (already happened) make to your character say a complete different thing from what you meaned.. And also.. We have less immersive factor because the char use words that you have not selected... Simple... Logical..

I'm amazed all you continue to belive that the all written out for you dialog options in DAO reflect "what you want to say". You are either channeling people at Bioware or lying because the DAO dialog options don't reflect what I want to say - the odds that they could capture your exact words are almost impossible.  Yes you know exactly what your character won't be saying but so what if those options are not what you want to say. The dialog in DAO or BG or FO reflect some strain of what I want to say
but only because the dialog options are a mask for: "good answer", "evil answer", or "what answer".


People must be dense to not get what the ME2 dialog is going to say. There is one bad spot (FemShep and Jacob in one dialog instance), and it is the only one anyone can ever give, where Shep gives the wrong tone to a dialog and it hits like a brick but other than that there's nothing wrong with the wheel.

You've never had complete control of what your character says. All it can do are mouth the worlds Bioware put into their mouths. Spoken or written you've never had that level of control and no matter the delivery mechanism.

After a while you just have to ignore Monica...She whines and complains about everything.....alot

[Monica83]

If i read the answer i can better control them... simple

[Aradace]

Monica83 wrote...

If i read the answer i can better control them... simple

If you dont know the general gist of what is going to happen when an answer is typically "paraphrased" then that's your problem for having poor reading and comprehension skills.  You dont even have the arguement anymore of "but what if it ends in violence and I dont want it to?" because they've already stated that if the option could possibly end in violence, that there is going to be an indicator clueing you in to that is what is going to happen if you choose that option.

[Monica83]

Please i don't attacked anyone be civil thanks

[Aradace]

I am being very civil...You're the one taking it out of context. Seriously though, your complaints no longer hold any weight because what is done with the game has been done. It's time to move on.