1279 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

One major difference is that they appear to have fiddled with the game rules to balance the game and produce "fun" in DAO (they're certainly doing this in DA2), whereas in BG they did try to stay as true to AD&D rules as they could.

I don't think great games need to use any particular ruleset, but I do think the ruleset should be coherent and then have th game designed around it.

[Saibh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I can see reasons to expect Hawke will be more of a pre-generated character than the Warden was, but Amioran hasn't appealed to any of those reasons.

And this is bad? Lemme pull up this useful tool from Sable...ah, here. If you find having a set background, name, and race distasteful, I'm sorry, a lot of RPGs--BioWare and no--are not for you.

Personally, I don't find what we know of Hawke's level of pre-customization terrible. Sure, I prefer more options; in games like ME, it seems appropriate that Shepard is defined as s/he is. I can't see it being done in a different way, because of the specific requirements you must meet to be who you are in that setting.

In what we know of DA2's setting and story, Hawke's level of preset might not be necessary, but it also may serve to further the story in unique and interesting ways in a way that the Origins couldn't. Maybe it is necessary, however, I don't know.

Modifié par Saibh, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:08 .

[Riona45]

And in any case, what's wrong with the developers trying something new? They said they haven't abandoned the elements they consider most important to the setting and franchise. I can't think of a reason not to take their word for it.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Saibh wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I can see reasons to expect Hawke will be more of a pre-generated character than the Warden was, but Amioran hasn't appealed to any of those reasons.

And this is bad? Lemme pull up this useful tool from Sable...ah, here. If you find having a set background, name, and race distasteful, I'm sorry, a lot of RPGs--BioWare and no--are not for you.

You misunderstand.  Whether the character has a fixed background is completely irrelevant when determining whether that character has a pre-generated personality.

BioWare has made two games with a pre-set personality (ME and ME2), and all of the rest (BG, BG2, NWN, KotOR, JE, DAO) did not.

Which will DA2 have?  This remains to be seen.  The only reason it's even a question worth asking is because the means by which that personality was implemented in ME and ME2 (the dialogue wheel and voiced protagonist) are being used in DA2.  Are they being used to the same ends?

WE DON'T KNOW THAT.

And for some reason, BioWare hasn't told us.



Incidentally, Sable was completely wrong about KotOR.  From the PC's perspective, he is not at all who the game thinks he is.

[Riona45]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

You misunderstand.  Whether the character has a fixed background is completely irrelevant when determining whether that character has a pre-generated personality.

Then why all the sturm und drang with regards to Hawke?  Is it solely because Hawke is going to be voiced?

Modifié par Riona45, 25 septembre 2010 - 05:01 .

[DespiertaLosNinos]

Riona45 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...



You misunderstand. Whether the character has a fixed background is completely irrelevant when determining whether that character has a pre-generated personality.

Then why all the sturm und drang with regards to Hawke? Is it solely because Hawke is going to be voiced?

Heh. Been awhile since I have seen the use of "sturm und drang", gives me a weird nostalgic feeling. On topic however, I believe that the voice acting is the main stumbling block for most people and honestly one that is likely to be ever present until the release when they are then capable to making actual informed opinions

[Riona45]

DespiertaLosNinos wrote...
Heh. Been awhile since I have seen the use of "sturm und drang", gives me a weird nostalgic feeling.

Glad to hear it.

[errant_knight]

DespiertaLosNinos wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

You misunderstand. Whether the character has a fixed background is completely irrelevant when determining whether that character has a pre-generated personality.

Then why all the sturm und drang with regards to Hawke? Is it solely because Hawke is going to be voiced?

Heh. Been awhile since I have seen the use of "sturm und drang", gives me a weird nostalgic feeling. On topic however, I believe that the voice acting is the main stumbling block for most people and honestly one that is likely to be ever present until the release when they are then capable to making actual informed opinions

If you've played both voiced and unvoiced rpgs, and consistantly found voiced characters to be less engaging, a negative reaction to a voiced character isn't exactly uninformed. Really good acting can mitigate how offputting one finds it, and that can't be judged until the game is released, but one can still have a pretty good idea how one is going to feel about it based on past experience.

[Pritos]

errant_knight wrote...

DespiertaLosNinos wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

You misunderstand. Whether the character has a fixed background is completely irrelevant when determining whether that character has a pre-generated personality.

Then why all the sturm und drang with regards to Hawke? Is it solely because Hawke is going to be voiced?

Heh. Been awhile since I have seen the use of "sturm und drang", gives me a weird nostalgic feeling. On topic however, I believe that the voice acting is the main stumbling block for most people and honestly one that is likely to be ever present until the release when they are then capable to making actual informed opinions

If you've played both voiced and unvoiced rpgs, and consistantly found voiced characters to be less engaging, a negative reaction to a voiced character isn't exactly uninformed. Really good acting can mitigate how offputting one finds it, and that can't be judged until the game is released, but one can still have a pretty good idea how one is going to feel about it based on past experience.

I don't know if it is just me but I have always found voiced character to be far more immersive than voiceless ones. At least those with decent voice actors. It represents better it's personality, making it seems much more real than just "use your imagination" thing that we have in DAO. And with DA2's possibility of shaping the character's personality acording to your wishes, all Bioware has to do to make this a real success, if find a fine voice actor.

[Gibb_Shepard]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I can see reasons to expect Hawke will be more of a pre-generated character than the Warden was, but Amioran hasn't appealed to any of those reasons.

And this is bad? Lemme pull up this useful tool from Sable...ah, here. If you find having a set background, name, and race distasteful, I'm sorry, a lot of RPGs--BioWare and no--are not for you.

You misunderstand.  Whether the character has a fixed background is completely irrelevant when determining whether that character has a pre-generated personality.

BioWare has made two games with a pre-set personality (ME and ME2), and all of the rest (BG, BG2, NWN, KotOR, JE, DAO) did not.

I'm guessing you have never played Mass effect 1 or 2 before? The whole godamn point of the games is to shape shepards personality. The personality is in no way pre-determined, so i don't see why it would be different for DA2

Modifié par Gibb_Shepard, 25 septembre 2010 - 07:48 .

[foodstuffs]

Pritos wrote...

I don't know if it is just me but I have always found voiced character to be far more immersive than voiceless ones. At least those with decent voice actors.  It represents better it's personality, making it seems much more real than just "use your imagination" thing that we have in DAO. And with DA2's possibility of shaping the character's personality acording to your wishes, all Bioware has to do to make this a real success, if find a fine voice actor.

(not arguing, just speaking off your words)

A couple things to note here:

(Quality) Quality is everything, especially consistant quality, with quite a range, including: horrible, bad, mediocre, decent, good, great, amazing (and whatever other descriptions you want to use here).   The Legacy of Kain series has the highest, and most consistantly high, quality of voice acting I've ever had the privelage of hearing (especially Kain, Raziel, and The Elder God).  I've played some games where the VA was so bad I had to quit playing, or muster my courage to continue, and in some cases still could not continue.  Simply, if the development team believes it is necessary to include VA then that VA needs to be worth hearing.

(Representation of Personality)  In the Legacy of Kain series I have no problem with the main characters being voiced, because, although I play the main characters, I do not assume their roles, thus their voices do not need to be mine (whatever I imagine).  Kain and Raziel are their own distinct personalities, they need their own distinct voices.  In a game where I am given the authority to give the main character its own personality, whether it has a predetermined background or not, I need to also be allowed to use that authority.  The inclusion of a spoken voice limits my authority, limits my ability to imagine my character.

Now, if Hawke is going to have his own distinct personality then, perhaps, a spoken voice is not necessarily a bad thing (see above).  However, if I am going to be allowed to do with Hawke as I please, then I need a voice that I please (mine, a voice of my own imagining).

In case I am not clear:  My characters are mine and they need to be treated as such. 

Modifié par foodstuffs, 25 septembre 2010 - 09:21 .

[FieryDove]

Gibb_Shepard wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Saibh wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I can see reasons to expect Hawke will be more of a pre-generated character than the Warden was, but Amioran hasn't appealed to any of those reasons.

And this is bad? Lemme pull up this useful tool from Sable...ah, here. If you find having a set background, name, and race distasteful, I'm sorry, a lot of RPGs--BioWare and no--are not for you.

You misunderstand.  Whether the character has a fixed background is completely irrelevant when determining whether that character has a pre-generated personality.

BioWare has made two games with a pre-set personality (ME and ME2), and all of the rest (BG, BG2, NWN, KotOR, JE, DAO) did not.

I'm guessing you have never played Mass effect 1 or 2 before? The whole godamn point of the games is to shape shepards personality. The personality is in no way pre-determined, so i don't see why it would be different for DA2

I would disagree, even the devs have said it more or less. (about Shep not Hawke)

Then if we take voice acting into the bigger picture Shep becomes more defined. Hale did excellenct as paragon, Meer as renegade. I could not play the opposites, it felt and sounded *wrong*. Yes, imho...but that was my impression and it's a lasting one.

[Monica83]

I'm still playng baldur's gate 2... And have an avesome story with great sidequest and interesting party member personal quests... Bg2 its a very long game and a masterpiece for Crpg.. I don't know why rpg producer seems to want streamlize evrything.. We have shorter games with some quest with lack of details...(like che church ones for DAO).. I miss those wonderfull games... You feel inside them inside theyr story.. And they have not VO character or Shiny graphic but they stays awesome in the times.. DAO was nice i like it a lot but Bg2 its awesome.. Now producer tend to make shorter games with cool animations Vo character and othern many cool gameplay things... I loved origins and i love Bg2 and those games always stay in my hearth... Its sad to read how someone don't play Bg series because is.... Old... or Dated.. If you are searching for a great RPG game with an awesome story BG its the god of roleplay games..

[AlanC9]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

One major difference is that they appear to have fiddled with the game rules to balance the game and produce "fun" in DAO (they're certainly doing this in DA2), whereas in BG they did try to stay as true to AD&D rules as they could.
I don't think great games need to use any particular ruleset, but I do think the ruleset should be coherent and then have th game designed around it.

How big a difference is that, really? Presumably TSR went through their own fiddling with the rules phase at some point.. And IIRC Bio did throw out some of the AD&D rules, notably CON loss for resurrection and demi-human level limits.

[AlanC9]

FieryDove wrote...
I would disagree, even the devs have said it more or less. (about Shep not Hawke)

More specifically, they have explicity denied that they're doing this with Hawke. I believe DG's phrase was "different teams with different goals." DAWiki might have the link.

[AlanC9]

Monica, how come you write sentence fragments rather than actual sentences?

[Monica83]

I just look what we have before... and what we have now...
And the new rpg's have a nice graphic a good gameplay.. But most times are short.. And don't have the same deepnes how the past games..

DAO i loved it because its an old style Rpg
But if you tell me.. Mass Effect.. i don't like it its cool and have a nice story but its also linear and don't have a huge ammount of side storyes or choice..

Its more like a sci-fi fictional shooter with a nice story and some rpg elements... but is not a true RPG like Origins is.. or.. Bg saga is..

Modifié par Monica83, 25 septembre 2010 - 02:30 .

[The Masked Rog]

Monica83 wrote...

I'm still playng baldur's gate 2... And have an avesome story with great sidequest and interesting party member personal quests... Bg2 its a very long game and a masterpiece for Crpg.. I don't know why rpg producer seems to want streamlize evrything.. We have shorter games with some quest with lack of details...(like che church ones for DAO).. I miss those wonderfull games... You feel inside them inside theyr story.. And they have not VO character or Shiny graphic but they stays awesome in the times.. DAO was nice i like it a lot but Bg2 its awesome.. Now producer tend to make shorter games with cool animations Vo character and othern many cool gameplay things... I loved origins and i love Bg2 and those games always stay in my hearth... Its sad to read how someone don't play Bg series because is.... Old... or Dated.. If you are searching for a great RPG game with an awesome story BG its the god of roleplay games..

So you are saying that the companies shouldn't invest in graphics or cooler gameplay? No offense, but BG II had horrid gameplay. Truly horrid. Characters took forever to attack, there were way too many spells and classes, which rendered most irrelevant or near duplicates, and most had no effect on the story. I don't remember a single occasion where my gnome Bhaalspawn was properly recognized as that. And the lack of PC VO is an immersion and RP killer for me.

[Monica83]

Maybe but have a WONDERFULL plot... A deep world full off informations.. Deep dialogues...Its a True RPG...A true masterpiece.. All companions are very different from eachother they have a wonderfull story on theyr back.. They have also personals problem to solve... Sideqest are awesome and not similiar.. Vo don't add nothing for me..And sorry but if you think VO its necessary in a RP game maybe you don't know how to roleplay.. I don't say VO is bad.. I say BG series its a masterpiece.. If much more RPG follows the bg way we have more quality rpg.. It's not the graphic or the gameplay or a voice character that makes a nice rpg.. Its the story.. The details how the world around you and your companions are writed... The situations you can afford.. Baldur's gate saga is deep and beautyfull..This is why a rpg must have a nice lenght.. If you have a long game you have better chance to have much more details in evrything..

[Saibh]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

You misunderstand.  Whether the character has a fixed background is completely irrelevant when determining whether that character has a pre-generated personality.

BioWare has made two games with a pre-set personality (ME and ME2), and all of the rest (BG, BG2, NWN, KotOR, JE, DAO) did not.

Which will DA2 have?  This remains to be seen.  The only reason it's even a question worth asking is because the means by which that personality was implemented in ME and ME2 (the dialogue wheel and voiced protagonist) are being used in DA2.  Are they being used to the same ends?

WE DON'T KNOW THAT.

And for some reason, BioWare hasn't told us.

You're free to disregard this, since I can't scrounge up the source, but the devs have told us Hawke is less pre-defined than Shepard was.

Incidentally, Sable was completely wrong about KotOR.  From the PC's perspective, he is not at all who the game thinks he is.

Background is still set however. It's dictated for you, and there is no changing it. She didn't make a discretion either way.

[ErichHartmann]

Baldur's Gate is linear like any other RPG. The main storyline take you from point A, with optional areas to explore, to point X for the final showdown. And it really doesn't take that long either. Just feels like it because the characters don't move fast. I beat BG + BG2 combined faster than I did DAO.



As for Mass Effect, sounds like you are bias against science fiction. Did you even pay attention to the choices you can make and the storyline?

[AlanC9]

Monica83 wrote...
 All companions are very different from eachother they have a wonderfull story on theyr back.. They have also personals problem to solve...

And this is different from DAO.... how?

[foodstuffs]

AlanC9 wrote...

Monica83 wrote...
 All companions are very different from eachother they have a wonderfull story on theyr back.. They have also personals problem to solve...

And this is different from DAO.... how?

BG 2 characters felt alive, DA:O characters did not.  BG 2 characters interacted with the world, with you, and with each other, sometimes to the point of violence.  I can't tell you how many times I felt Allistair should have just reached out and gutted Morrigan, but nothing ever happened to her.  It was like she was his dominatrix, and he secretly enjoyed it.  DA:O characters knew they were sidekicks and nothing more, the few lines they spoke during a plot conversation, with Kolgrim for example, provided for no concequences.  In the BG series, the party characters might actually attack eachother, or even an npc.  BG characters felt alive, DA:O characters felt comatose.  DA:O characters felt like very little more than a page in an encyclopedia. 

[SDNcN]

foodstuffs wrote...

BG 2 characters felt alive, DA:O characters did not.  BG 2 characters interacted with the world, with you, and with each other, sometimes to the point of violence.  I can't tell you how many times I felt Allistair should have just reached out and gutted Morrigan, but nothing ever happened to her.  It was like she was his dominatrix, and he secretly enjoyed it.

Maybe you didn't understand the character?
Alistair was never portrayed as the kind of person who would attempt murder because someone insults him.

DA:O characters knew they were sidekicks and nothing more, the few lines they spoke during a plot conversation, with Kolgrim for example, provided for no concequences.

Wynne or an unhardened Leliana does provide a concequence for siding with Kolgrim, they attack the PC or they leave the group. I don't recall any of the companions in BG1/2 influencing the main game or side-quests any more than Origins companions. They just leave due to reputation shifts and have dialogue in some conversations.

In the BG series, the party characters might actually attack eachother, or even an npc.  BG characters felt alive, DA:O characters felt comatose.  DA:O characters felt like very little more than a page in an encyclopedia. 

So for characters to to be real they need to attack theirtraveling companions when they disagree with them?
That makes sense.

Modifié par SDNcN, 25 septembre 2010 - 05:13 .