1279 réponses à ce sujet

[Riona45]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I wanted to be all cheerful and polite to TIM.  He was clearly in complete control of the situation, so antagonising him seemed like a dumb thing to do.  So I picked Paragon options, hoping those would be all obsequious like they were when dealing with the council in ME.

I played through as Paragon, and I clearly remember not being obsequious towards the council.  Polite, yes, but not servile.  A Paragon does call them out on their mistakes.

Never played as Renegade, though hearing about how that kind of character reacts to TIM is interesting.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I don't think I should ever "find out" how my character behaves in a certain situation. I should already know that.

[Gvaz]

I agree. I expect a radial menu and a discourse happening without me from Mass Effect. I don't from Dragon Age.



Other people mentioned they didn't want to bother picking a text, but IMO they're insane. If i'm supposed to be roleplaying someone, I should pick the type of character they are. I liked that my choices for morality were limited to the current squad but I could always pick what to say that wouldn't be offensive to them. Or just pick them back up later.



However, these choices should have impacted me later, such as during camp or something, and I could appease them later.

[Riona45]

GvazElite wrote...

I agree. I expect a radial menu and a discourse happening without me from Mass Effect. I don't from Dragon Age.

The developers have said that Hawke is a less defined character than Shepard.

[Bryy_Miller]

GvazElite wrote...
Other people mentioned they didn't want to bother picking a text, but IMO they're insane.

IMO you should not be making grand absolutist generalizations about people you don't even know.

[Riona45]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

GvazElite wrote...
Other people mentioned they didn't want to bother picking a text, but IMO they're insane.

IMO you should not be making grand absolutist generalizations about people you don't even know.

Agreed; different people have different preferences.  Live and let live.

[Wyndham711]

Riona45 wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...

I have friends who love the nature of Mass Effect so much that it really blinds them. They can't dissect the game anymore. The way it makes roleplaying largely impossible, for example, is either a seemingly forced non-issue or completely denied.
The magnitude in which they enjoy the setting, the story, the shooting and the audiovisual package makes them either oblivious or dismissive about the obvious shortcomings of the game in terms of roleplaying.

So?  What's your point, that they should stop having fun?

Of course not. Analyzing things is healthy - blindly and stubbornly clinging to a false supposition is not. Seeing people banging their heads on the wall saying Mass Effect offers great roleplaying freedom is frustrating. With the people I know that behaviour has been due to them enjoying the other aspects of the game so greatly that they feel they have to forcefully ignore or deny any possible blemishes the game has.
And I don't think the lack of roleplaying freedom is an insignificant blemish to an RPG.

[Riona45]

Wyndham711 wrote...
Of course not. Analyzing things is healthy - blindly and stubbornly clinging to a false supposition is not.

Oh come on.  We're talking about video games, not potential cures for deadly diseases.  If your friends love one particular game so much, let them love it and go on enjoying what you like.

Modifié par Riona45, 29 septembre 2010 - 04:11 .

[Bryy_Miller]

Wyndham711 wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...

I have friends who love the nature of Mass Effect so much that it really blinds them. They can't dissect the game anymore. The way it makes roleplaying largely impossible, for example, is either a seemingly forced non-issue or completely denied.
The magnitude in which they enjoy the setting, the story, the shooting and the audiovisual package makes them either oblivious or dismissive about the obvious shortcomings of the game in terms of roleplaying.

So?  What's your point, that they should stop having fun?

Of course not. Analyzing things is healthy - blindly and stubbornly clinging to a false supposition is not. Seeing people banging their heads on the wall saying Mass Effect offers great roleplaying freedom is frustrating. With the people I know that behaviour has been due to them enjoying the other aspects of the game so greatly that they feel they have to forcefully ignore or deny any possible blemishes the game has.
And I don't think the lack of roleplaying freedom is an insignificant blemish to an RPG.

Okay. As I implied in my last post (right above yours), it is not that great an idea to link objectivity to a subjective situation. To clarify, it is rather lame to assume that you know that Mass Effect offers no RPGing freedom. It is also rather lame to assume that your friends are merely cherrypicking the features they like, and secretly not telling you that they hate everything else.

I love Mass Effect, and its sequel. Does this mean that I am blind to their flaws? I love Dragon Age, does this mean I am blind to its flaws? Or would you merely say that I am blindly supporting Dragon Age 2 by highlighting what Dragon Age 1 needs to change? Because that seems to be the war cry among those that just want to be right.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 29 septembre 2010 - 04:24 .

[DespiertaLosNinos]

Wyndham711 wrote...

Of course not. Analyzing things is healthy - blindly and stubbornly clinging to a false supposition is not. Seeing people banging their heads on the wall saying Mass Effect offers great roleplaying freedom is frustrating. With the people I know that behaviour has been due to them enjoying the other aspects of the game so greatly that they feel they have to forcefully ignore or deny any possible blemishes the game has.
And I don't think the lack of roleplaying freedom is an insignificant blemish to an RPG.

Honestly you are free to enjoy or hate any game you wish, as your friends should be too.  I think you are just getting way to caught up in genre classifications.  Are you correct that Mass Effect doesn't off a wide variety of role-playing freedom? Yes.  Is that really important? Subjective.  I enjoyed Mass Effect for what it was, sure it wasn't perfect but what game is?

A poor example but if World of Goo was branded an RPG would you then say that people who found the game enjoyable are wrongfully ignoring some arbitrary classification?  Why should that matter?

Grim Fandango and Legend of Zelda are both "adventure games."  There is little to connect the two besides this.  Should then either be judged on the confines of the other?

To be clear, I don't care if you hate Mass Effect and I encourage constructive criticism but nobody should have to justify their enjoyment of entertainment within the confines of somebody else's conceptions

[Bryy_Miller]

Actually, let me clarify: I loved Mass Effect 2. Mass Effect 1 was a pile of rubbish topped off with a great story.

[AlanC9]

Wyndham711 wrote...
Seeing people banging their heads on the wall saying Mass Effect offers great roleplaying freedom is frustrating.

Of course, "great roleplaying freedom" has no objective meaning.Compared to, say, Half-Life or Grim Fandango, ME certainly does offer great roleplaying freedom. Unless your friends are saying that ME offers great roleplaying freedom relative to other RPGs there's nothing wrong with the statement.

[Wyndham711]

DespiertaLosNinos wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...

Of course not. Analyzing things is healthy - blindly and stubbornly clinging to a false supposition is not. Seeing people banging their heads on the wall saying Mass Effect offers great roleplaying freedom is frustrating. With the people I know that behaviour has been due to them enjoying the other aspects of the game so greatly that they feel they have to forcefully ignore or deny any possible blemishes the game has.
And I don't think the lack of roleplaying freedom is an insignificant blemish to an RPG.

Honestly you are free to enjoy or hate any game you wish, as your friends should be too.  I think you are just getting way to caught up in genre classifications.  Are you correct that Mass Effect doesn't off a wide variety of role-playing freedom? Yes.  Is that really important? Subjective.  I enjoyed Mass Effect for what it was, sure it wasn't perfect but what game is?

To be clear, I don't care if you hate Mass Effect and I encourage constructive criticism but nobody should have to justify their enjoyment of entertainment within the confines of somebody else's conceptions

At no point have I said that people shouldn't enjoy Mass Effect. Or that it is a bad game. Even I personally am able to enjoy the series. But turning a blind eye to its flaws is the problem. I don't think there is any conflict in being able to objectively analyze subjectively enjoyable things.
Games that tightly restrict or disallow roleplaying are not games that allow freedom in roleplaying. As you see, it's not complicated, no genre boundaries have to be broken or upheld. Roleplaying games simply require roleplaying, by definition.

[AlanC9]

What if they feel that ME has enough roleplaying freedom as it is, and wouldn't be any better with more? It's not turning a blind eye to a flaw if you don't consider the design approach to be flawed.

[Bryy_Miller]

Wyndham711 wrote...
Roleplaying games simply require roleplaying, by definition.

And you don't think Mass Effect is an RPG.

That doesn't mean that it isn't.

You're hung up on thinking we're thinking you are saying they can't enjoy  game. The problem is that you are assuming that you know facts about a subjective product. There's nothing wrong with being objective, but there is something wrong with assuming that you know what a games flaws are, and that everyone should be aware of them, no matter what. If they don't think they are flaws, then that must mean that they are blind frothing fans that are simply "ignoring" them.

That kind of stuff isn't cool.

Modifié par Bryy_Miller, 29 septembre 2010 - 06:27 .

[Wyndham711]

I think it is simply impossible for me to understand how the lack of roleplaying freedom in a roleplaying game could not be seen as a flaw. One might not care about it, saying "I know my roleplaying is very restricted here, but it doesn't matter and I enjoy the game regardless", and I wouldn't have a problem with that (that's the viewpoint from which I myself approach the ME series, and am able to find some enjoyement),

But when people start saying that "Lack of roleplaying in a roleplaying game is not a flaw" or that "No, you actually can freely roleplay in Mass Effect", is where I reach the limits of my understanding.

[Bryy_Miller]

Wyndham711 wrote...

I think it is simply impossible for me to understand how the lack of roleplaying freedom in a roleplaying game could not be seen as a flaw.

Okay.
Not everyone does not see a lack of roleplaying elements in every single RPG.
Not everyone has the same opinions as you.

t when people start saying that "Lack of roleplaying in a roleplaying game is not a flaw"

Show me where anyone said that.

"No, you actually can freely roleplay in Mass Effect", is where I reach the limits of my understanding.

So, you don't understand how other people can have differing opinions on subjects?

I'm honestly beginning to think you're just trolling at this point.

[Wyndham711]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

"No, you actually can freely roleplay in Mass Effect", is where I reach the limits of my understanding.

So, you don't understand how other people can have differing opinions on subjects?

The problem is that I'm not able to see that as a matter of opinion. The way
the game is set up I just can't see how one could succesfully roleplay
in it to any meaningful extent. If you can enlighten me in the ways one
can succesfully roleplay in the ME series, I would greatly appreciate
it.

[Gvaz]

Riona45 wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...
Of course not. Analyzing things is healthy - blindly and stubbornly clinging to a false supposition is not.

Oh come on.  We're talking about video games, not potential cures for deadly diseases.  If your friends love one particular game so much, let them love it and go on enjoying what you like.

I'd just assume not talk to them anymore

[DespiertaLosNinos]

Wyndham711 wrote...
 
Games that tightly restrict or disallow roleplaying are not games that allow freedom in roleplaying. As you see, it's not complicated, no genre boundaries have to be broken or upheld. Roleplaying games simply require roleplaying, by definition.

Thats my point actually.  You are getting hung up on blanket genres.  Forget that Mass Effect was labeled an RPG  instead it was labeled a 3rd person shooter......or better yet it had no genre classification, you simply had to decide for yourself if the game based on its own merits and flaws was entertaining.  Do you not enjoy certain music or a game because of the genre it happens to be thrown in with?  Maybe you do, and I'm starting to think that might be the case at which point I'm just going in circles.

Again, I'm not debating your point that Mass Effect allows for limited "roleplaying."

Modifié par DespiertaLosNinos, 29 septembre 2010 - 02:36 .

[DespiertaLosNinos]

GvazElite wrote...

Riona45 wrote...

Wyndham711 wrote...
Of course not. Analyzing things is healthy - blindly and stubbornly clinging to a false supposition is not.

Oh come on.  We're talking about video games, not potential cures for deadly diseases.  If your friends love one particular game so much, let them love it and go on enjoying what you like.

I'd just assume not talk to them anymore

End a friendship because of what games they like? Fantastic!

[Wyndham711]

DespiertaLosNinos wrote...

Thats my point actually.  You are getting hung up on blanket genres.  Forget that Mass Effect was labeled an RPG  instead it was labeled a 3rd person shooter......or better yet it had no genre classification, you simply had to decide for yourself if the game based on its own merits and flaws was entertaining.  Do you not enjoy certain music or a game because of the genre it happens to be thrown in with?  Maybe you do, and I'm starting to think that might be the case at which point I'm just going in circles.

Again, I'm not debating your point that Mass Effect allows for limited "roleplaying."

What Mass Effect is called by people is secondary to my point. Wheter it allows freedom of roleplaying is what I feel is most central. Though the genre labeling aspect is also interesting. Be it RPG or TPS or whatever. It is in any case problematic how the abreviation RPG has become a sort of no man's land. At this point it seems almost any game can call itself an RPG, from Borderlands to Puzzle Quest. I guess it's partly the abbreviation that makes it so tempting.

After all, an R, a P, and a G don't really signal anything by themselves, so it's easy to disregard what they actually stand for. Roleplaying games. Somehow this doesn't happen with most other genres though, even if their definitions are abbreviated. An RTS is a real time strategy game and most everyone gets it, and don't confuse them with say turn based strategy games. Same with FPS and TPS, few would actually confuse them (although some do casually call all shooters FPS games, but I feel that's mostly just a matter of absent-mindedness, rather than actual genre confusion).

Most games today classified as RPGs are in my terms more "CPGs", or Character Progression Games. Pretty much every roleplaying game also includes an amount of character progression, but charater progression doesn't require or naturally incorporate roleplaying. They are different entities whose confusion I think is part of the problem why the RPG genre is so conflicted and has lost its identity.

Modifié par Wyndham711, 29 septembre 2010 - 03:10 .

[AlanC9]

Wyndham711 wrote...

I think it is simply impossible for me to understand how the lack of roleplaying freedom in a roleplaying game could not be seen as a flaw. One might not care about it, saying "I know my roleplaying is very restricted here, but it doesn't matter and I enjoy the game regardless", and I wouldn't have a problem with that (that's the viewpoint from which I myself approach the ME series, and am able to find some enjoyement),

But one might also think that ME has exactly as much ropleplaying as he wants. You really don't understand that someone might simply not want any more roleplaying than ME provides?

I'm objecting to your use of "flaw" above.If you want to say that ME has less roleplaying than other games that's a different argument.

Such a person, of course, would not be particularly interested in a pure RPG as you define the term. I expect someone with these tastes might put up with DA the same way you put up with ME.

Modifié par AlanC9, 29 septembre 2010 - 05:30 .

[Wyndham711]

AlanC9 wrote...


Such a person, of course, would not be particularly interested in a pure RPG as you define the term. I expect someone with these tastes might put up with DA the same way you put up with ME.

I can understand one being fine with the restrictions and being content with the way the game currently is. What I don't understand is saying that those restrictions do not exist, or that they are irrelevant for a roleplaying game.

[AlanC9]

Wyndham711 wrote...

Most games today classified as RPGs are in my terms more "CPGs", or Character Progression Games. Pretty much every roleplaying game also includes an amount of character progression, but charater progression doesn't require or naturally incorporate roleplaying. They are different entities whose confusion I think is part of the problem why the RPG genre is so conflicted and has lost its identity.

Prehaps you should give your definition of "roleplaying" again. In ordinary language use playing the role of Shepard is well within the definition of roleplaying. Obviously you have something different in mind, but I don't understand your particular usage precisely.

Good luck with challenging the way everybody else uses the term RPG. Its a bit quixotic, but I suppose you already know that.