1279 réponses à ce sujet

[Morroian]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

So that makes it ok for those content with the genre as it was? Tiny bit hypocritical doncha think?

There will always be options so long as a market exists even if its just indie games.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I'm still trying to figure out, considering there's still a market for the type of game BG and DA:O are, why there's a need to Mass Effect it when they already have Mass Effect.

Strawman again, using some similar features (which will probably become standard features) is not making it a fantasy mass effect.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

So that makes it ok for those content with the genre as it was? Tiny bit hypocritical doncha think?

There will always be options so long as a market exists even if its just indie games.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
I'm still trying to figure out, considering there's still a market for the type of game BG and DA:O are, why there's a need to Mass Effect it when they already have Mass Effect.

Strawman again, using some similar features (which will probably become standard features) is not making it a fantasy mass effect.

Sure because a voiced protagonist, complete with dialog wheel, and faster gameplay isn't at all like Mass Effect.

[Morroian]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
At that point you're not really roleplaying at all

Yeah I am, at this point it should be obvious that yours and Sylvius's is an extreme version of role playing which is not reflected in the way most people play these games.

[Morroian]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Sure because a voiced protagonist, complete with dialog wheel, and faster gameplay isn't at all like Mass Effect.

By themselves no.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Sure because a voiced protagonist, complete with dialog wheel, and faster gameplay isn't at all like Mass Effect.

By themselves no.

I don't think its too much of a stretch to say they're borrowing alot of elements at least when it comes to dialog straight from Mass Effect.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
At that point you're not really roleplaying at all

Yeah I am, at this point it should be obvious that yours and Sylvius's is an extreme version of role playing which is not reflected in the way most people play these games.

You're playing a predifined character complete with voice overs, paraphrased dialog choices that you have no clue on what will actually be said, and just going along for the ride. Thats hardly roleplaying at that point.

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

So that makes it ok for those content with the genre as it was? Tiny bit hypocritical doncha think? I'm still trying to figure out, considering there's still a market for the type of game BG and DA:O are, why there's a need to Mass Effect it when they already have Mass Effect.

Apples and oranges.  The direction of game development is beyond my control - aside from voting with my wallet.  Therefore, I can either be depressed (flight sim) or pleased (CRPGs).  People are free to have their own opinions that are as valid as my own.  However, where I begin to take issue is when people condescendingly summarize the opinions of others in order to support their own views.  But make no mistake, we're reacting to changes developers are making, and I gain nothing by saying "Dragon Age 2 ought to be more like Baldur's Gate 2 because there are people out there that definitely want that."  The flight sim genre died because people stopped buying the games, period.  Not because of people being condescending about it on forums.

When the flight sim genre was dying, I wasn't visiting message boards like this - so I can't say for certain what I would have said.  However, when the sequel to Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe was released, I played the demo - uninstalled it in disgust - and left the genre behind (with one exception, IL-2 Sturmovik).  I'd love to play a game that captures my interest the way Red Baron did, or even Strike Commander - but they don't exist anymore.   Understanding what reactionary CRPG fans are going through, and on some level sympathizing, doesn't mean that I have to sublimate my preferences. 

On the point of games like Mass Effect already existing, I could say the same thing about Baldur's Gate 2 still existing.  When we have preferences for games to play a certain way, it's only natural to want more games of that type.  DA:2 having a voiced PC and a dialogue wheel is something I prefer to the BG2 or DA:O methods of communcating - on every level.  I'm not going to get into why I prefer it, because this isn't the thread. 

More or less, the only reason I bother to debate is because I get angry at people who categorize those who disagree with them - most often when it comes to the "Mass Effectification of Dragon Age" - as inferior.  It's insulting, and I don't like it one bit.    Otherwise, I wouldn't bother opposing such views in threads.  I'd just ignore it.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:23 .

[nightcobra]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

So that makes it ok for those content with the genre as it was? Tiny bit hypocritical doncha think? I'm still trying to figure out, considering there's still a market for the type of game BG and DA:O are, why there's a need to Mass Effect it when they already have Mass Effect.

Apples and oranges.  The direction of game development is beyond my control - aside from voting with my wallet.  Therefore, I can either be depressed (flight sim) or pleased (CRPGs).  People are free to have their own opinions that are as valid as my own.  However, where I begin to take issue is when people condescendingly summarize the opinions of others in order to support their own views.  But make no mistake, we're reacting to changes developers are making, and I gain nothing by saying "Dragon Age 2 ought to be more like Baldur's Gate 2 because there are people out there that definitely want that."  The flight sim genre died because people stopped buying the games, period.  Not because of people being condescending about it on forums.

When the flight sim genre was dying, I wasn't visiting message boards like this - so I can't say for certain what I would have said.  However, when the sequel to Secret Weapons of the Luftwaffe was released, I played the demo - uninstalled it in disgust - and left the genre behind (with one exception, IL-2 Sturmovik).  I'd love to play a game that captures my interest the way Red Baron did, or even Strike Commander - but they don't exist anymore.   Understanding what reactionary CRPG fans are going through, and on some level sympathizing, doesn't mean that I have to sublimate my preferences. 

On the point of games like Mass Effect already existing, I could say the same thing about Baldur's Gate 2 still existing.  When we have preferences for games to play a certain way, it's only natural to want more games of that type.  DA:2 having a voiced PC and a dialogue wheel is something I prefer to the BG2 or DA:O methods of communcating - on every level.  I'm not going to get into why I prefer it, because this isn't the thread. 

More or less, the only reason I bother to debate is because I get angry at people who categorize those who disagree with them - most often when it comes to the "Mass Effectification of Dragon Age" - as inferior.  It's insulting, and I don't like it one bit.    Otherwise, I wouldn't bother opposing such views in threads.  I'd just ignore it.

QFT

[the_one_54321]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...
So therefore everything is as it appears in the game.

Sure.

What counts as "in the game"?  Are the targetting reticles in the game?  If so, why do the NPCs not react to them when they apepar on the ground?

You're reaching again. The developers have made it explicitly clear that the dialog is the dialog is the dialog. The fact that it was presented without a voice does not change that the text is the character was scripted to say by the developers. If you remove that as an imaginary User Interface within your own mind it does not have any effect on how the game was made.

The only techinical difference that exists here is that:

The old game had no voice and therefore you were free to imagine (however incorrectly) what the character said.

The new game has a voice and therefore you can no longer imagine (incorrectly in the case where your imagination would differe with the voice acting) what the character says.

The fact that you would like this change to not take place and why you would not like it to take place is easily understandable. The fact that you are arguing that developers writing does not exist when a voice does not exist is ludicrous. And it's getting to the point of being laughable in how far your reaching to try and make it technically correct. Accept that the character was written before you played the game and leave it be. All that exists with any weight in this argument is that you are no longer free to imagine whatever you will in despite of the writing.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

the_one_54321 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

JrayM16 wrote...
So therefore everything is as it appears in the game.

Sure.

What counts as "in the game"?  Are the targetting reticles in the game?  If so, why do the NPCs not react to them when they apepar on the ground?

You're reaching again. The developers have made it explicitly clear that the dialog is the dialog is the dialog. The fact that it was presented without a voice does not change that the text is the character was scripted to say by the developers. If you remove that as an imaginary User Interface within your own mind it does not have any effect on how the game was made.

The only techinical difference that exists here is that:

The old game had no voice and therefore you were free to imagine (however incorrectly) what the character said.

The new game has a voice and therefore you can no longer imagine (incorrectly in the case where your imagination would differe with the voice acting) what the character says.

The fact that you would like this change to not take place and why you would not like it to take place is easily understandable. The fact that you are arguing that developers writing does not exist when a voice does not exist is ludicrous. And it's getting to the point of being laughable in how far your reaching to try and make it technically correct. Accept that the character was written before you played the game and leave it be. All that exists with any weight in this argument is that you are no longer free to imagine whatever you will in despite of the writing.

Incorrectly or not what does it matter? Are you standing behind Sylvius when he plays and grading him on his playing being correct or not? I though having fun was the important thing. Its astounding to me that those who are such huge proponents of Mass Effect's dialog system can be so condescending in telling someone else they play RPG's wrong because god forbid the devs didn't intend a dialog line to be interpreted that way! Fail!

Don't worry, they're removing that from DA2 and prolly all future games at this point, we can all be forced to play the way they intend us to now, force fed voice overs and all. Progress I tell ya!

[upsettingshorts]

misread

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:38 .

[addiction21]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
At that point you're not really roleplaying at all

Yeah I am, at this point it should be obvious that yours and Sylvius's is an extreme version of role playing which is not reflected in the way most people play these games.

You're playing a predifined character complete with voice overs, paraphrased dialog choices that you have no clue on what will actually be said, and just going along for the ride. Thats hardly roleplaying at that point.

Your arbitray definition of roleplaying. In CRPGS you have always played a predefined character. Those characters, the words they "speak" the choices they get to make, and the respones to those things are predefined. You can imagine, ignore, or dismiss whatever you want but those things are set in stone. They are there and you cannot go outside of them. That is the reality of this medium.
You had as many clues ahead of time in DAO (BG series and others you like to hold up on a pedestal) then you did in MassEffect 1 and 2. Heck the Mass Effect games even gave you a little more then those others since you knew you were making a paragon or renegade choice but the others did not let you know ahead of time if you were doing something that would anger or garner favor with your companions.
Something I think is more necessary in a setting like DAO/DA2 where these companions are people that you have spent weeks, months and in DA2's case years with. It should not be a guessing game when it comes to saying something they will respond to in a good or bad way and yet it was.

[the_one_54321]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Incorrectly or not what does it matter? Are you standing behind Sylvius when he plays and grading him on his playing being correct or not? I though having fun was the important thing. Its astounding to me that those who are such huge proponents of Mass Effect's dialog system can be so condescending in telling someone else they play RPG's wrong because god forbid the devs didn't intend a dialog line to be interpreted that way! Fail!

Don't worry, they're removing that from DA2 and prolly all future games at this point, we can all be forced to play the way they intend us to now, force fed voice overs and all. Progress I tell ya!

I doesn't matter. Which is why I'm startng to think it's ridiculous that he keeps trying to justify his perference through reasoning that the writing doesn't actually exist in the game. There's no point.

I'm not even arguing in favor of a voiced protagonist here. But the writing exists no matter if it's voiced or not.

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Incorrectly or not what does it matter? Are you standing behind Sylvius when he plays and grading him on his playing being correct or not? I though having fun was the important thing. Its astounding to me that those who are such huge proponents of Mass Effect's dialog system can be so condescending in telling someone else they play RPG's wrong because god forbid the devs didn't intend a dialog line to be interpreted that way! Fail!

Don't worry, they're removing that from DA2 and prolly all future games at this point, we can all be forced to play the way they intend us to now, force fed voice overs and all. Progress I tell ya!

I have no earthly idea whatsoever how you gleaned even a fraction of that from my post. 

That's probably because it was in response to my post.

[upsettingshorts]

the_one_54321 wrote...
That's probably because it was in response to my post.

Just caught that, I don't know how I misread - musta scrolled too fast.  Heh, editing now.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:39 .

[Morroian]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

I don't think its too much of a stretch to say they're borrowing alot of elements at least when it comes to dialog straight from Mass Effect.

A lot? The dialogue wheel, which is really just a game mechanic to keep conversation flowing better, and a voiced protagonist which is hardly unique to mass effect. Maybe having an investigate option as well. The tonal options are a big refinement from the paragon and renegade options, such that it doesn't sound all that similar. And the influence system will be different.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

You're playing a predifined character complete with voice overs, paraphrased dialog choices that you have no clue on what will actually be said, and just going along for the ride. Thats hardly roleplaying at that point.

The character isn't predefined, the background is, the race and to a certain extent the role is. We're free to define Hawke's character using the options the game gives us, and we're reportedly free to define how Hawke takes on the role.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

the_one_54321 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Incorrectly or not what does it matter? Are you standing behind Sylvius when he plays and grading him on his playing being correct or not? I though having fun was the important thing. Its astounding to me that those who are such huge proponents of Mass Effect's dialog system can be so condescending in telling someone else they play RPG's wrong because god forbid the devs didn't intend a dialog line to be interpreted that way! Fail!

Don't worry, they're removing that from DA2 and prolly all future games at this point, we can all be forced to play the way they intend us to now, force fed voice overs and all. Progress I tell ya!

I doesn't matter. Which is why I'm startng to think it's ridiculous that he keeps trying to justify his perference through reasoning that the writing doesn't actually exist in the game. There's no point.

I'm not even arguing in favor of a voiced protagonist here. But the writing exists no matter if it's voiced or not.

The intended tone if you will is irrelevant in written dialog for this type of game because everyone is going to interpret it differently in the first place. I know people love trying to go after Sylvius and try and prove him wrong all the time but thats not a very good point to use because ultimately in that circumstance its irrelevant in the first place.

[the_one_54321]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
The intended tone if you will is irrelevant in written dialog for this type of game because everyone is going to interpret it differently in the first place. I know people love trying to go after Sylvius and try and prove him wrong all the time but thats not a very good point to use because ultimately in that circumstance its irrelevant in the first place.

Actually, I think I'm about 50/50 with regard to agree/disagree in so far as RPGs are concerned. He just makes me head-desk a lot in the kinds of arguments he tries to put forward. This whole "the text is UI and isn't real in the game" is so ludicrous that I can't help myself but to point it out. As for the fact that he'd rather there not be voice; doesn't bother me at all. I like DA:O just fine without a voice.

[nightcobra]

delete

Modifié par nightcobra8928, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:46 .

[TheMufflon]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

The intended tone if you will is irrelevant in written dialog for this type of game because everyone is going to interpret it differently in the first place.

That would be true if not for the fact that the NPCs respond to the intended delivery.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

addiction21 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
At that point you're not really roleplaying at all

Yeah I am, at this point it should be obvious that yours and Sylvius's is an extreme version of role playing which is not reflected in the way most people play these games.

You're playing a predifined character complete with voice overs, paraphrased dialog choices that you have no clue on what will actually be said, and just going along for the ride. Thats hardly roleplaying at that point.

Your arbitray definition of roleplaying. In CRPGS you have always played a predefined character. Those characters, the words they "speak" the choices they get to make, and the respones to those things are predefined. You can imagine, ignore, or dismiss whatever you want but those things are set in stone. They are there and you cannot go outside of them. That is the reality of this medium.
You had as many clues ahead of time in DAO (BG series and others you like to hold up on a pedestal) then you did in MassEffect 1 and 2. Heck the Mass Effect games even gave you a little more then those others since you knew you were making a paragon or renegade choice but the others did not let you know ahead of time if you were doing something that would anger or garner favor with your companions.
Something I think is more necessary in a setting like DAO/DA2 where these companions are people that you have spent weeks, months and in DA2's case years with. It should not be a guessing game when it comes to saying something they will respond to in a good or bad way and yet it was.

Not true, I could see my dialog options, and have my PC voice them in any tone I chose in DA and BG, thats not even remotely the same as paraphrased voice overs where you're totally guessing the content and delivery. Heck even the Paragon/Renegade responses didn't make much sense alot of the time to begin with.

[the_one_54321]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Not true, I could see my dialog options, and have my PC voice them in any tone I chose in DA and BG, thats not even remotely the same as paraphrased voice overs where you're totally guessing the content and delivery. Heck even the Paragon/Renegade responses didn't make much sense alot of the time to begin with.

I'll give you that, but there is no ignoring that the NPC response is scripted based on the PC's script. The freedom exists mostly in illusion which is why it's all imagination. That's all fine and dandy. Nothing wrong with prefering that over a voice actor. But recognize it for what it is.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

TheMufflon wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

The intended tone if you will is irrelevant in written dialog for this type of game because everyone is going to interpret it differently in the first place.

That would be true if not for the fact that the NPCs respond to the intended delivery.

The player can't control how an NPC would react to anything in the first place, you're not the npc.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

the_one_54321 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Not true, I could see my dialog options, and have my PC voice them in any tone I chose in DA and BG, thats not even remotely the same as paraphrased voice overs where you're totally guessing the content and delivery. Heck even the Paragon/Renegade responses didn't make much sense alot of the time to begin with.

I'll give you that, but there is no ignoring that the NPC response is scripted based on the PC's script. The freedom exists mostly in illusion which is why it's all imagination. That's all fine and dandy. Nothing wrong with prefering that over a voice actor. But recognize it for what it is.

Illusion or not, it offers more along the lines of roleplaying your character how you see fit. Which is all I was getting at. I absolutely hated ME's system and I think it downright sucks that DA2 is going that route.

[the_one_54321]

You want the freedom to imagine! Ok! Nothing wrong with that! But there is no superior or inferior here. There is no broken or mismanaged as far as the writing goes. How hard is it to just say "I prefer to have the freedom to imagine my PCs voice" without including all the vitriol?

There is no better or worse here. Just different preferences in role playing.