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#1151
TheMufflon

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Not true, I could see my dialog options, and have my PC voice them in any tone I chose in DA and BG, thats not even remotely the same as paraphrased voice overs where you're totally guessing the content and delivery.


I only rarely had that problem in Mass Effect, and never in Mass Effect 2. With the added tone icon in DA2, even you should be able to appraise the content.

Heck even the Paragon/Renegade responses didn't make much sense alot of the time to begin with.


Which was a problem with the writing being overly formulaic rather than something inherent in the dialogue wheel.

#1152
TheMufflon

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

The player can't control how an NPC would react to anything in the first place, you're not the npc.


Irrelevant. The player can control what the NPC reacts to.

Modifié par TheMufflon, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:51 .


#1153
upsettingshorts

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
The player can't control how an NPC would react to anything in the first place, you're not the npc.


No, but the writers can.  The imagined delivery of the PC is all well and good, but the consequences of your dialogue choice are pre-written, and thereby assumes certain things about how the PC delivered the line by implication.  That isn't to say Sylvius' method is wrong, it's just suspension of disbelief.  Suspension of disbelief is something we all do to some extent or another with all fiction. 

The way dialogue works in DA:O hurts my ability to suspend disbelief, and features like a voiced PC and a dialogue wheel enhance it.  That's a personal preference and not any objective underlying truth about how these games should work.   The idea that I don't know precisely what my character is going to say draws me in to the conversation when he actualls says it, and if I make my selection on the dialogue wheel in a timely fashion, the resulting conversation feels more real to me when when I pick a line of text on the bottom of the screen then hear an NPC talk at me.  That's the difference to me. 

CRPGs are like choose your own adventure books
.  They only mimic tabletop RPGs, and the way dialogue works is one of the major ways this reveals itself.  Picking a line of dialogue or a quest resolution in DA:O is more like choosing between turning to page 47 or page 53 in a book than telling your GM what you want your toon to do next in a pen and paper RPG.  The choices and consequences are already written, they're all parts of Bioware's story, you are only choosing which form of the story you want presented - you're not writing it yourself - and any imaginative embellishment is incidental.  

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:59 .


#1154
nightcobra

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the_one_54321 wrote...

You want the freedom to imagine! Ok! Nothing wrong with that! But there is no superior or inferior here. There is no broken or mismanaged as far as the writing goes. How hard is it to just say "I prefer to have the freedom to imagine my PCs voice" without including all the vitriol?
There is no better or worse here. Just different preferences in role playing.


true, but you know they'll keep on saying the system DA2 will be using is inferior so i won't bother with them anymore. it's not like they'll manage to convince the developers to change the core architecture of DA2 by complaining non-stop

#1155
Brockololly

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Morroian wrote...
Strawman again, using some similar features (which will probably become standard features) is not making it a fantasy mass effect.


Hmmm... tell that to Brent Knowles, former Lead Designer of Origins who left BioWare last year. His thoughts on DA2?

Discussion on Dragon Age 2 began around this time and looking ahead I  knew that I wasn’t going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would  be. Party control/tactical combat are huge factors in my enjoyment of a  role-playing game as is adopting the role of the hero (i.e., customizing my character). I was fairly certain Dragon Age would transition towards more of a Mass Effect experience, which while enjoyable is not the type of role-playing game I play. Could I be the lead designer on such a  title? Certainly… though if I were going to work on a game adopting a  set-in-stone protagonist I’d rather work on something lighter, like a  shooter.


DA is headed in the ME direction.

Modifié par Brockololly, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:53 .


#1156
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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the_one_54321 wrote...

You want the freedom to imagine! Ok! Nothing wrong with that! But there is no superior or inferior here. There is no broken or mismanaged as far as the writing goes. How hard is it to just say "I prefer to have the freedom to imagine my PCs voice" without including all the vitriol?
There is no better or worse here. Just different preferences in role playing.


Eh imo the more roleplaying options you give the player the better. Obviously some people don't care about that at all, and would rather just be hand held through a story and not have to think as much about a response because lets face it paraphrased voice overs doesn't really give you much choice in first place since you're guessing 100% of the time. Sure its subjective I guess but I'd much rather see the old style stay rather than the new "everything needs voice overs" trend.

#1157
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Brockololly wrote...

Morroian wrote...
Strawman again, using some similar features (which will probably become standard features) is not making it a fantasy mass effect.


Hmmm... tell that to Brent Knowles, former Lead Designer of Origins who left BioWare last year. His thoughts on DA2?

Discussion on Dragon Age 2 began around this time and looking ahead I  knew that I wasn’t going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would  be. Party control/tactical combat are huge factors in my enjoyment of a  role-playing game as is adopting the role of the hero (i.e., customizing my character). I was fairly certain Dragon Age would transition towards more of a Mass Effect experience, which while enjoyable is not the type of role-playing game I play. Could I be the lead designer on such a  title? Certainly… though if I were going to work on a game adopting a  set-in-stone protagonist I’d rather work on something lighter, like a  shooter.


DA is headed in the ME direction.


Gee what a shock! no really! :innocent:

#1158
Morroian

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Incorrectly or not what does it matter?

It matters because as someone else said Sylvius, and you, are insisting the game design is wrong if it doesn't accomodate the way you role play.

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Are you standing behind Sylvius when he plays and grading him on his playing being correct or not? I though having fun was the important thing. Its astounding to me that those who are such huge proponents of Mass Effect's dialog system can be so condescending in telling someone else they play RPG's wrong because god forbid the devs didn't intend a dialog line to be interpreted that way! Fail!

You calling someone else out on being condescending! :D Oh and BTW you are also telling others how they should play rpgs and they are doing it wrong.

#1159
upsettingshorts

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Eh imo the more roleplaying options you give the player the better.


Presumptive statement on what "roleplaying options" are.

Obviously some people don't care about that at all


Misleading summary of what opposing view is trying to say.

would rather just be hand held through a story and not have to think as much


Condescending misrepresentation of what the difference between a dialogue wheel and text options means to a supporter of the former.

about a response because lets face it paraphrased voice overs doesn't really give you much choice in first place since you're guessing 100% of the time.


Subjective opinion based on personal and anecdotal experience with the dialogue wheel.

Sure its subjective I guess but I'd much rather see the old style stay rather than the new "everything needs voice overs" trend.


Honest statement of preference that I have no problem with and wouldn't have commented on if it wasn't for the rest of the post.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 12:58 .


#1160
TheMufflon

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
 you're guessing 100% of the time.


Speak for yourself.

#1161
the_one_54321

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Obviously some people don't care about that at all, and would rather just be hand held through a story and not have to think as much about a response because lets face it paraphrased voice overs doesn't really give you much choice in first place since you're guessing 100% of the time. Sure its subjective I guess but I'd much rather see the old style stay rather than the new "everything needs voice overs" trend.

Why the negativity? Why the sour grapes? This isn't a "new trend" it's just a recent development in western games.

Why do you have to make it an issue of "you're less of a role player than me because you want them to hold your hand?" 

I don't want anyone to hold my hand. I don't want anyone to play the game for me or shuttle me quickly along to the action portions of the game. I want to play a role within a good story. I can still play that role even if it's created by someone else instead of me. 

#1162
Morroian

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Not true, I could see my dialog options, and have my PC voice them in any tone I chose in DA and BG, thats not even remotely the same as paraphrased voice overs where you're totally guessing the content and delivery.


You're not guessing either. The tone icon will explicitly tell you how the line is delivered and the paraphrase if done properly will give you a good idea of what you are going to say.

#1163
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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TheMufflon wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
 you're guessing 100% of the time.


Speak for yourself.


Well you are at least the first time through the game.

#1164
upsettingshorts

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Well you are at least the first time through the game.


No I did not.  

Never once experienced disconnect between the dialogue option I selected and Shepard's delivery of the line.  In ME1 or 2. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:10 .


#1165
nightcobra

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Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Not true, I could see my dialog options, and have my PC voice them in any tone I chose in DA and BG, thats not even remotely the same as paraphrased voice overs where you're totally guessing the content and delivery.


You're not guessing either. The tone icon will explicitly tell you how the line is delivered and the paraphrase if done properly will give you a good idea of what you are going to say.


and gaider said that even then the party members won't accept the choice you made such as having more than one romantic phrase both having the heart icon and one of the choices might ****** the LI off

#1166
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Not true, I could see my dialog options, and have my PC voice them in any tone I chose in DA and BG, thats not even remotely the same as paraphrased voice overs where you're totally guessing the content and delivery.


You're not guessing either. The tone icon will explicitly tell you how the line is delivered and the paraphrase if done properly will give you a good idea of what you are going to say.


If done properly is the key word there. With how terrible I felt ME2 handled it, I'm not exactly very excited for it here.

#1167
Brockololly

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Morroian wrote...
You're not guessing either. The tone icon will explicitly tell you how the line is delivered and the paraphrase if done properly will give you a good idea of what you are going to say.

Just because you see a red fist icon to denote "aggressive" doesn't tell me to what degree Hawke will say the line- is he going to simply say the line in an ticked off tone or is he going to be screaming like a madman? Both may be considered aggressive, but there is a big difference in the delivery, which we have no control over.

And having a "good idea" of what you're going to say isn't the same as being able to read the full text dialogue choices and knowing exactly what you are going to say. There shouldn't be any guess work in what the PC is going to do provided you're in control of the PC.

#1168
upsettingshorts

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Brockololly wrote...
There shouldn't be any guess work in what the PC is going to do provided you're in control of the PC.


I disagree.

And we've come full circle.  

#1169
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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nightcobra8928 wrote...

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Not true, I could see my dialog options, and have my PC voice them in any tone I chose in DA and BG, thats not even remotely the same as paraphrased voice overs where you're totally guessing the content and delivery.


You're not guessing either. The tone icon will explicitly tell you how the line is delivered and the paraphrase if done properly will give you a good idea of what you are going to say.


and gaider said that even then the party members won't accept the choice you made such as having more than one romantic phrase both having the heart icon and one of the choices might ****** the LI off


If it is indeed as indepth as that, showing clearly the tone, we'll see how it turns out. As it stands I vastly perfer DAO's style to how ME/ME2 handled it. Especially in the case of ME2 because the Paragon/Renegade choices often times didn't make a whole lot of sense in the first place.

Reading that Brent quote doesn't help my opinion of the "mass effected DA" either. When a former designer on the game pretty much comes right out and says they're mass effecting it, well that's prolly exactly what they're doing.

#1170
Morroian

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
If done properly is the key word there. With how terrible I felt ME2 handled it, I'm not exactly very excited for it here.


Its a completely different team who are clearly aware of the ME problems.

#1171
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Upsettingshorts wrote...

Brockololly wrote...
There shouldn't be any guess work in what the PC is going to do provided you're in control of the PC.


I disagree.

And we've come full circle.  


Then the character isn't your own. Like has been said plenty of times. Its extremely hard to clearly roleplay a difined character personality that the player chooses when you're guessing the full ramifications of how a particular line of dialog is going to be delievered.

#1172
Brockololly

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote..
Reading that Brent quote doesn't help my opinion of the "mass effected DA" either. When a former designer on the game pretty much comes right out and says they're mass effecting it, well that's prolly exactly what they're doing.


Right, I mean thats the LEAD designer for most of the time Origins was in development. And he's expressing the same concerns many of us are as well. Like he said, maybe DA2 turns out to be a good game, but thats not the kind of RPG I want to play.

#1173
the_one_54321

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Then the character isn't your own. Like has been said plenty of times. Its extremely hard to clearly roleplay a difined character personality that the player chooses when you're guessing the full ramifications of how a particular line of dialog is going to be delievered.

There are hurdles, but it's far from being impossible. It's largely a matter of how much you feel you need to care about the choices you make or how content you are to just enjoy the story that is presented.

#1174
CoS Sarah Jinstar

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Brockololly wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote..
Reading that Brent quote doesn't help my opinion of the "mass effected DA" either. When a former designer on the game pretty much comes right out and says they're mass effecting it, well that's prolly exactly what they're doing.


Right, I mean thats the LEAD designer for most of the time Origins was in development. And he's expressing the same concerns many of us are as well. Like he said, maybe DA2 turns out to be a good game, but thats not the kind of RPG I want to play.


Ditto, I want to play dragon age, not mass effect.

#1175
TheMufflon

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CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Well you are at least the first time through the game.


No, I am not. You might be, which is why you should speak for yourself, and only yourself.