1279 réponses à ce sujet

[the_one_54321]

Brockololly wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote..
Reading that Brent quote doesn't help my opinion of the "mass effected DA" either. When a former designer on the game pretty much comes right out and says they're mass effecting it, well that's prolly exactly what they're doing.

Right, I mean thats the LEAD designer for most of the time Origins was in development. And he's expressing the same concerns many of us are as well. Like he said, maybe DA2 turns out to be a good game, but thats not the kind of RPG I want to play.

Wait, who said what about what now? This is something I haven't read yet.

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Then the character isn't your own. Like has been said plenty of times. Its extremely hard to clearly roleplay a difined character personality that the player chooses when you're guessing the full ramifications of how a particular line of dialog is going to be delievered.

The character never was my own.  It never has been in any Bioware CRPG.  Every possible line of dialogue the game and every single NPC response is predetermined.  I am playing Bioware's character, my roleplaying options are, as a result - choosing which version of the protagonist's story I prefer.

Like has been said many times, it's extremely hard to suspend disbelief and immerse myself in the gameworld when my interaction with other people involves clicking a line of text and having my computer talk at me.  The dialogue wheel allows for as realistic a representation of a genuine conversation as is currently possible in a videogame, and that's why I like it. 

See, it's called a difference of opinion. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:22 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

the_one_54321 wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Then the character isn't your own. Like has been said plenty of times. Its extremely hard to clearly roleplay a difined character personality that the player chooses when you're guessing the full ramifications of how a particular line of dialog is going to be delievered.

There are hurdles, but it's far from being impossible. It's largely a matter of how much you feel you need to care about the choices you make or how content you are to just enjoy the story that is presented.

Unforunately the_one, thats the most important part of the game for me, not the combat. I care greatly about the coversation choices I make for "MY" characters, because it makes me a part of the story itself, in that I'm shaping dialog based on a character personality that "I" choose, not one that the writting team chose for me. Having those choices completely out of my hands quite frankly sucks .

[Brockololly]

the_one_54321 wrote...
Wait, who said what about what now? This is something I haven't read yet.

http://social.biowar...9551/47#4958250

Brent Knowles, former lead designer of Origins who left BioWare last year. His thoughts on DA2:

Discussion on Dragon Age 2 began around this time and looking ahead I  knew that I wasn’t going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would  be. Party control/tactical combat are huge factors in my enjoyment of a  role-playing game as is adopting the role of the hero (i.e., customizing my character). I was fairly certain Dragon Age would transition towards more of a Mass Effect experience, which while enjoyable is not the type of role-playing game I play. Could I be the lead designer on such a  title? Certainly… though if I were going to work on a game adopting a set-in-stone protagonist I’d rather work on something lighter, like a  shooter.

Modifié par Brockololly, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:25 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

Then the character isn't your own. Like has been said plenty of times. Its extremely hard to clearly roleplay a difined character personality that the player chooses when you're guessing the full ramifications of how a particular line of dialog is going to be delievered.

The character never was my own.  It never has been in any Bioware CRPG.  Every possible line of dialogue the game and every single NPC response is predetermined.  I am playing Bioware's character, my roleplaying options are, as a result - choosing which version of the protagonist's story I prefer.

Like has been said many times, it's extremely hard to suspend disbelief and immerse myself in the gameworld when my interaction with other people involves clicking a line of text and having my computer talk at me.

See, it's called a difference of opinion. 

Really? You never chose your own race/class/skills etc? Or you character's personality ever? It's always been prechosen for you? Wow that has got to suck.

[the_one_54321]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Then the character isn't your own. Like has been said plenty of times. Its extremely hard to clearly roleplay a difined character personality that the player chooses when you're guessing the full ramifications of how a particular line of dialog is going to be delievered.

The character never was my own.  It never has been in any Bioware CRPG.  Every possible line of dialogue the game and every single NPC response is predetermined.  I am playing Bioware's character, my roleplaying options are, as a result - choosing which version of the protagonist's story I prefer.

Like has been said many times, it's extremely hard to suspend disbelief and immerse myself in the gameworld when my interaction with other people involves clicking a line of text and having my computer talk at me.  The dialogue wheel allows for as realistic a representation of a genuine conversation as is currently possible in a videogame, and that's why I like it. 

See, it's called a difference of opinion.

And she hasn't been saying otherwise for at least the last couple of posts.

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

 I care greatly about the coversation choices I make for "MY" characters,

And we come to the actual core of the fundamental disagreement.  It's not that those that prefer the dialogue wheel can't or won't read.  It's that those who support the dialogue wheel are of the opinion that they're Biowares characters in Bioware's story - whether they are consciously aware of it or not.

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Really? You never chose your own race/class/skills etc? Or you character's personality ever? It's always been prechosen for you? Wow that has got to suck.

All choices of race: Written by Bioware
All possible choices of class:  Created by Bioware.  Though this is mostly a gameplay and not directly a story concern.
All possible choices of skills:  Created by Bioware. Though this is mostly a gameplay and not directly a story concern.
All possible dialogue options for the PC: Written by Bioware.
All reactions to all possible dialogue options:  Written by Bioware.

It doesn't "suck" it's a reflection of what CRPGs are.  You're choosing which version of Bioware's story you want your protagonist to experience.  It's your version of their story and their characters.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:28 .

[the_one_54321]

Brockololly wrote...

the_one_54321 wrote...

Brockololly wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote..
Reading that Brent quote doesn't help my opinion of the "mass effected DA" either. When a former designer on the game pretty much comes right out and says they're mass effecting it, well that's prolly exactly what they're doing.

Right, I mean thats the LEAD designer for most of the time Origins was in development. And he's expressing the same concerns many of us are as well. Like he said, maybe DA2 turns out to be a good game, but thats not the kind of RPG I want to play.

Wait, who said what about what now? This is something I haven't read yet.

http://social.biowar...9551/47#4958250

Brent Knowles, former lead designer of Origins who left BioWare last year. His thoughts on DA2:

Discussion on Dragon Age 2 began around this time and looking ahead I knew that I wasn’t going to be satisfied with what Dragon Age 2 would be. Party control/tactical combat are huge factors in my enjoyment of a
role-playing game as is adopting the role of the hero (i.e., customizing my character). I was fairly certain Dragon Age would transition towards more of a Mass Effect experience, which while enjoyable is not the type
of role-playing game I play. Could I be the lead designer on such a title? Certainly… though if I were going to work on a game adopting a set-in-stone protagonist I’d rather work on something lighter, like a shooter.

I see. Well, Mike Laidlaw has been insisting up and down on somthing slightly different for some time now. So the guy who was there at the beginning vs the guy who's there right now but also has a vested interest in it. Time will tell. I'll buy ME3 but not another game that plays like ME2 with a different name.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Really? You never chose your own race/class/skills etc? Or you character's personality ever? It's always been prechosen for you? Wow that has got to suck.

All choices of race: Written by Bioware
All possible choices of class:  Created by Bioware.  Though this is mostly a gameplay and not directly a story concern.
All possible choices of skills:  Written by Bioware. Though this is mostly a gameplay and not directly a story concern.
All possible dialogue options for the PC: Written by Bioware.
All reactions to all possible dialogue options:  Written by Bioware.

It doesn't "suck" it's a reflection of what CRPGs are.  You're choosing which version of Bioware's story you want your protagonist to experience.  It's your version of their story and their characters.

You're arguing semantics to further your point of view. Which isn't entirely true. You still have options to clearly define a character's personality, via what dialog choices among other things, you make and how you actively play said character how do I know this? Because I've done it, in just about every crpg I've ever played.

[ErichHartmann]

Never had an issue roleplaying my preferred personality in Mass Effect first run through. No confusion over dialogue choices or reloads. /shrugs

[Brockololly]

Upsettingshorts wrote..
It doesn't "suck" it's a reflection of what CRPGs are.

I would say that the dialogue wheel and voiced PC simply takes away more agency from the player. Sure, you're playing in BioWare's sandbox even with a silent PC, but I just feel going with the more cinematic ME voiced PC route takes away too many player choices in how to role play the PC.

I agree with what Chris Avellone says here about what makes a good RPG:

What, in your opinion, are the crucial elements for a good RPG these days?

The range of character development and customization, and reactivity to that character choice and development within the game world. The more  you can do to bring story, world, and characters into the equation, the  better, but ultimately, players want to build the character they want,  customize their character, and then have the world respond appropriately through dialogue choices, ways to solve quests, or even NPC's reactions to your character's purple mohawk.

So, I just think that giving the player a set voice and having to guess at the dialogue inhibits my ability to build the character I want.

Modifié par Brockololly, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:31 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Brockololly wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote..
It doesn't "suck" it's a reflection of what CRPGs are.

I would say that the dialogue wheel and voiced PC simply takes away more agency from the player. Sure, you're playing in BioWare's sandbox even with a silent PC, but I just feel going with the more cinematic ME voiced PC route takes away too many player choices in how to role play the PC.

I agree with what Chris Avellone says here about what makes a good RPG:

What, in your opinion, are the crucial elements for a good RPG these days?

The range of character development and customization, and reactivity to that character choice and development within the game world. The more  you can do to bring story, world, and characters into the equation, the  better, but ultimately, players want to build the character they want,  customize their character, and then have the world respond appropriately through dialogue choices, ways to solve quests, or even NPC's reactions to your character's purple mohawk.

So, I just think that giving the player a set voice and having to guess at the dialogue inhibits my ability to build the character I want.

Bingo, makes me almost want to pick up New Vegas, just hope it feels finished and polished, not exactly a given with Obsidian's track record.

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

You're arguing semantics to further your point of view. Which isn't entirely true.

It's not semantics. I view a clear distinction between choosing between predetermined options and creating a character of my own. The latter is not possible in any Bioware game. It's something I enjoy doing in tabletop RPGs, though.  Again, these are my views that are important to why I like the dialogue wheel. 

You still have options to clearly define a character's personality, via what dialog choices among other things, you make and how you actively play said character how do I know this? Because I've done it, in just about every crpg I've ever played.

The options are entirely written by Bioware.

Brockololly wrote...
I agree with what Chris Avellone says here about what makes a good RPG:

And I can respect that. The only reason I'm arguing in the first place is I want the preference of the dialogue wheel feature to be accurately represented and not condescendingly misrepresented by traditionalists.

It is not:
* Hand holding through story
* Inability to read
* Unwillingness to make choices

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:36 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...

You're arguing semantics to further your point of view. Which isn't entirely true.

It's not semantics. I view a clear distinction between choosing between predetermined options and creating a character of my own. The latter is not possible in any Bioware game. It's something I enjoy doing in tabletop RPGs, though.  Again, these are my views that are important to why I like the dialogue wheel. 

You still have options to clearly define a character's personality, via what dialog choices among other things, you make and how you actively play said character how do I know this? Because I've done it, in just about every crpg I've ever played.

The options are entirely written by Bioware.

Brockololly wrote...
I agree with what Chris Avellone says here about what makes a good RPG:

And I can respect that. The only reason I'm arguing in the first place is I want the preference of the dialogue wheel feature to be accurately represented and not condescendingly misrepresented by traditionalists.

Really I thought the options were written by Sam the janitor, its irrelevant anyway, you're still CHOOSING and defining your character how YOU want to regarless of who wrote the dialog choices. Its a concession considering the medium.

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Really I thought the options were written by Sam the janitor, its irrelevant anyway, you're still CHOOSING and defining your character how YOU want to regarless of who wrote the dialog choices. Its a concession considering the medium.

It's not irrelevant when I refuse to consider any character "mine" when not given near absolute freedom in creating it.  As such, the only characters I would ever truly consider "my own" would be those I wrote myself.  As such - considering the medium obviously - I don't believe CRPGs in their current form are capable of delivering on my standards for ownership of a character.

Therefore, based on the idea that even though my choices effect the presentation of many specific aspects of the story and characters, they are still Bioware's.  So my experience of the game is more about discovery than creation.  Thus, discovering the precise wording Bioware came up with to express the summarized ideas of the dialogue wheel is more fun for me than more traditional setups.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:43 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Really I thought the options were written by Sam the janitor, its irrelevant anyway, you're still CHOOSING and defining your character how YOU want to regarless of who wrote the dialog choices. Its a concession considering the medium.

It's not irrelevant when I refuse to consider any character "mine" when not given near absolute freedom in creating it.  As such, the only characters I would ever truly consider "my own" would be those I wrote myself.  As such - considering the medium obviously - I don't believe CRPGs in their current form are capable of delivering on my standards for ownership of a character.

Therefore, based on the idea that even though my choices effect the presentation of many specific aspects of the story and characters, they are still Bioware's.  So my experience of the game is more about discovery than creation.  Thus, discovering the precise wording Bioware came up with to express the summarized ideas of the dialogue wheel is more fun for me than more traditional setups.

And in that you would be wrong. Again, no one is forcing you to play that way, but saying it can't be done is just wrong.  Bringing the wheel into it just makes it that much more difficult to play in that fashion, so its no wonder those who don't care about playing that way in the first place would welcome a voiced PC with open arms.

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:46 .

[Morroian]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Bingo, makes me almost want to pick up New Vegas, just hope it feels finished and polished, not exactly a given with Obsidian's track record.

Isn't Alpha Protocol like ME?

[Brockololly]

Upsettingshorts wrote...
Thus, discovering the precise wording Bioware came up with to express the summarized ideas of the dialogue wheel is more fun for me than more traditional setups.

And I find it more enjoyable to be able to read all of the different responses before picking one in a traditional full text setup.

I have nothing against the dialogue wheel, my issue with it is BioWare forcing it into every game they make. I prefer to have the freedom to read the full text- like being able to read a book. Some people prefer to quickly select a paraphrase and watch the scene play out- kind of like a movie. No one is better or worse than the other, but what bothers me is that with DA2, its essentially BIoWare ceasing to make books and only making movies. And its that larger loss of diversity in RPGs that most disappoints me.

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Morroian wrote...

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
Bingo, makes me almost want to pick up New Vegas, just hope it feels finished and polished, not exactly a given with Obsidian's track record.

Isn't Alpha Protocol like ME?

New Vegas doesn't have a voiced protagonist. Not sure what AP has to do with anything considering it had more design flaws than you can shake a stick at.

Modifié par CoS Sarah Jinstar, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:48 .

[upsettingshorts]

CoS Sarah Jinstar wrote...
And in that you would be wrong. Again, no one is forcing you to play that way, but saying it can't be done is just wrong.

Prove it. 

To restate an earlier point, a CRPG is like a choose your adventure book.  You might be free to choose to turn to page 47, 53, 64, and 101.  And you might have hundreds of such opportunities to make such a choice, but the options and the consequences were already written by someone else.  That's how CRPGs work.  They mimic the conventions of tabletop RPGs, but the medium is inherently limiting in precisely that fashion.

Bringing the wheel into it just makes it that much more difficult to play in that fashion, so its no wonder those who don't care about playing that way in the first place would welcome a voice PC with open arms.

And it's no wonder that people who think they own their characters would be offended by the idea that the writers actually do. 

Brockololly wrote...
I have nothing against the dialogue wheel, my issue with it is BioWare forcing it into every game they make.
I prefer to have the freedom to read the full text- like being able to read a book. Some people prefer to quickly select a paraphrase and watchthe scene play out- kind of like a movie. No one is better or worse than the other, but what bothers me is that with DA2, its essentially BIoWare ceasing to make books and only making movies. And its that larger loss of diversity in RPGs that most disappoints me.

I take no issue with your post.  Everyone is entitled to their preferences, even if it's simply for the diversity to exist.  To restate yet again, my primary issue has always been the misrepresentation of dialogue wheel supporters.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:52 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

And you call me condescending lol.

[upsettingshorts]

I do, because you are.

Further my posts are clearly and often riddled with qualifying statements, so your retort is baseless.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:57 .

[CoS Sarah Jinstar]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I do, because you are.

Further my posts are clearly and often marked as subjective opinion, so your retort is baseless.

So is it your opinion that one can't play an CRPG the way described or is it fact? Because you seem to be trying to say both. Like I said, you can enjoy your voiced over PC, thats awesome because you have a different way you look at RPG's and get enjoyment out of them. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Yet you found the need to do the same thing you folks jumped on Sylvius for. Pretty hypocritical imo.

[Morroian]

the_one_54321 wrote...
I see. Well, Mike Laidlaw has been insisting up and down on somthing slightly different for some time now. So the guy who was there at the beginning vs the guy who's there right now but also has a vested interest in it. Time will tell. I'll buy ME3 but not another game that plays like ME2 with a different name.

I just think describing it as moving towards a mass effect experience is just a convenient shorthand way of describing the process of how the franchise is moving forward rather than DA becoming specifically a fantasy ME, and Brent Knowles is in the same boat as Sylvius and Sarah in that he is against the game design of having a voiced protagonist and a wheel. Its not like DA2 is going to be a cover based shooter, from all reports the combat is fairly similar to DAO and they are retaining the tactical aspects. BW seem to regard that as a core plank of the DA franchise.

In fact the quote from Brent Knowles seem to imply that he thought they might get rid of those tactical aspects which might have influenced his thinking at the time.

Modifié par Morroian, 05 octobre 2010 - 01:59 .