1279 réponses à ce sujet

[Archereon]

Meltemph wrote...

That's a hyperbolic analogy you got there. Floating invisible aliens have pretty much no evidence. On the other hand, there are quite a few examples of video game devs who badmouthed games they worked on after leaving the company voluntarily.

How can you take those type of complaints with any more faith then the other-side of the equation? Either way the consumer does not really have the information to make that judgement either way. You are asking a question that can't have any real answer outside of just looking at the market and assume from that what people want in games.

There is really no real answer that can satisfy you in any realistic way.

The original question I asked was meant to be taken rhetorically.  Because of the reasons I stated, its obvious any dev who's trusted enough to post on the forum isn't going to admit to having misgivings about the decisions made in the game, even if they actually have serious ones.

[Firky]

Holy crap. That was exactly the kind of preview I wanted to read. We heard the guy's reaction to what he saw and got some pretty detailed explanations from its creators. Doesn't matter if he doesn't know how to spell Hawke. A fresh opinion is good and he's looking at all the right things to make a balanced preview. Also, doesn't sound to me like the developers are in any way disappointed with what they are making. And I find that (in particular) Mike Laidlaw's enthusiasm is rather infectious.

[SirOccam]

Archereon wrote...

SirOccam wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Ultimately, a manager will defer to the marketing experts over the dev team.  Its their (the marketing experts) job to figure out how to make the most money (and how to keep that income sustainable, if the executives don't plan on tanking a franchise for short term gain), and believe it or not, pleasing the fanbase is not always the best way to increase profit.

In fact, because of brand recognition, pleasing the fans (or "regular buyers") whims is often overridden by the prospect of bringing in new customers, since most of the old ones will buy it just for being part of the franchise they know and love.

Even if all of that is true, it doesn't mean that there were any massive philosophical crises like you describe. And of course if a dev were to answer, you'd just say "but you have to say that." You're free to believe what you want, but you can also claim that there might be floating, invisible aliens all around us, but we can't see them because they're invisible. Any critique someone has with the idea, you can come up with a way for it to work, and yet...it doesn't mean they're actually there.

Maybe they're all pretty satisfied with the way things are going. My namesake likes this idea the best.

That's a hyperbolic analogy you got there.  Floating invisible aliens have pretty much no evidence.  On the other hand, there are quite a few examples of video game devs who badmouthed games they worked on after leaving the company voluntarily.

It was meant to be hyperbolic, but the principles are the same. Describing how something could be the case isn't evidence that it is the case. And the example of some dev, working on some game, not liking how that game turned out is likewise not evidence that certain BioWare devs feel the same way about their game.

And even if they do, then like I said before, I'm sure they're able to deal with it rationally. They really shouldn't be involved in any kind of collaborative effort if they are not.

And also, one last aside: if we assume that some devs feel this way, it doesn't mean they are right. Maybe a dev really feels strongly that Hawke should be restricted to being male. In such a case, being overruled is a very good thing.

[Archereon]

Firky wrote...

Holy crap. That was exactly the kind of preview I wanted to read. We heard the guy's reaction to what he saw and got some pretty detailed explanations from its creators. Doesn't matter if he doesn't know how to spell Hawke. A fresh opinion is good and he's looking at all the right things to make a balanced preview. Also, doesn't sound to me like the developers are in any way disappointed with what they are making. And I find that (in particular) Mike Laidlaw's enthusiasm is rather infectious.

You do know the devs they allow to talk to press about the games are the ones that have enough skill in dealing with the press and are trustworthy enough not to accidentally reveal something about the game that wasn't approved to be leaked, or give a press member the wrong impression?

[Meltemph]

Archereon wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

That's a hyperbolic analogy you got there. Floating invisible aliens have pretty much no evidence. On the other hand, there are quite a few examples of video game devs who badmouthed games they worked on after leaving the company voluntarily.

How can you take those type of complaints with any more faith then the other-side of the equation? Either way the consumer does not really have the information to make that judgement either way. You are asking a question that can't have any real answer outside of just looking at the market and assume from that what people want in games.

There is really no real answer that can satisfy you in any realistic way.

The original question I asked was meant to be taken rhetorically.  Because of the reasons I stated, its obvious any dev who's trusted enough to post on the forum isn't going to admit to having misgivings about the decisions made in the game, even if they actually have serious ones.

But you make it sound like you "know" it is currently going on by asking the question in this manner...  Or at least you are guessing there "must be?

So do you think that the dev's do have "serious misgivings"? 

You do know the devs they allow to talk to press about the games are the ones that have enough skill in dealing with the press and are trustworthy enough not to accidentally reveal something about the game that wasn't approved to be leaked, or give a press member the wrong impression?

Again, you are making it seem like you already think there are misgivings...

Modifié par Meltemph, 18 septembre 2010 - 11:21 .

[Archereon]

Meltemph wrote...

Archereon wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

That's a hyperbolic analogy you got there. Floating invisible aliens have pretty much no evidence. On the other hand, there are quite a few examples of video game devs who badmouthed games they worked on after leaving the company voluntarily.

How can you take those type of complaints with any more faith then the other-side of the equation? Either way the consumer does not really have the information to make that judgement either way. You are asking a question that can't have any real answer outside of just looking at the market and assume from that what people want in games.

There is really no real answer that can satisfy you in any realistic way.

The original question I asked was meant to be taken rhetorically.  Because of the reasons I stated, its obvious any dev who's trusted enough to post on the forum isn't going to admit to having misgivings about the decisions made in the game, even if they actually have serious ones.

But you make it sound like you "know" it is currently going on by asking the question in this manner...  Or at least you are guessing there "must be?

So do you think that the dev's do have "serious misgivings"? 

You do know the devs they allow to talk to press about the games are the ones that have enough skill in dealing with the press and are trustworthy enough not to accidentally reveal something about the game that wasn't approved to be leaked, or give a press member the wrong impression?

Again, you are making it seem like you already think there are misgivings...

Given the size of the team working on DA2, its almost guaranteed at least one person is dead set in principle (but not practice for the reasons I discussed) against some decision made by the other devs, can't change the other devs' minds, and refuses to change their own mind.

[Firky]

Archereon wrote...

You do know the devs they allow to talk to press about the games are the ones that have enough skill in dealing with the press and are trustworthy enough not to accidentally reveal something about the game that wasn't approved to be leaked, or give a press member the wrong impression?

Indeed I do! 

But you've listened to Mike Laidlaw being interviewed? He doesn't sound like he's trying to sell something. To me, anyway, he sounds like he is genuinely enthusiastic about the game he's making.

(Ps. I should probably add that I had the great priviliege of being given a very long interview with Mike by phone before the release of Origins - as I was commissioned to write an Origins preview. Otherwise my comments are becoming unfairly out of context.)

Modifié par Firky, 18 septembre 2010 - 11:27 .

[Meltemph]

Given the size of the team working on DA2, its almost guaranteed at least one person is dead set in principle (but not practice for the reasons I discussed) against some decision made by the other devs, can't change the other devs' minds, and refuses to change their own mind.

But you are talking about a large difference of the game in its entirety based on fact-less assumptions. I don't even get the point of this, other then trying to artificially put devs on a "side".

[Archereon]

Meltemph wrote...

Given the size of the team working on DA2, its almost guaranteed at least one person is dead set in principle (but not practice for the reasons I discussed) against some decision made by the other devs, can't change the other devs' minds, and refuses to change their own mind.

But you are talking about a large difference of the game in its entirety based on fact-less assumptions. I don't even get the point of this, other then trying to artificially put devs on a "side".

The point of it is establishing that when we're talking to "devs", what we're hearing is PR approved statements given their own personal spin, or statements that are completely irrelevent to the game.

[Meltemph]

Archereon wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Given the size of the team working on DA2, its almost guaranteed at least one person is dead set in principle (but not practice for the reasons I discussed) against some decision made by the other devs, can't change the other devs' minds, and refuses to change their own mind.

But you are talking about a large difference of the game in its entirety based on fact-less assumptions. I don't even get the point of this, other then trying to artificially put devs on a "side".

The point of it is establishing that when we're talking to "devs", what we're hearing is PR approved statements given their own personal spin, or statements that are completely irrelevent to the game.

More assumptions based on preconceptions.  Seems like you want dissension a hell of a lot more then you "think" there is.  But I now know the point of your posts though, which is essentially what I thought.

[Archereon]

ARRRGH!!!^

TROLL ALERT, REALLY PERVERTED TROLL!

[Shadow_broker]

Archereon wrote...

ARRRGH!!!^

TROLL ALERT, REALLY PERVERTED TROLL!

Ignore him, he goes away the sooner you do

[Saibh]

Archereon wrote...

ARRRGH!!!^

TROLL ALERT, REALLY PERVERTED TROLL!

Ignore him, for serious. Report and be on your business.

[Firky]

Archereon wrote...


The point of it is establishing that when we're talking to "devs", what we're hearing is PR approved statements given their own personal spin, or statements that are completely irrelevent to the game.

I'm not deliberately trying to be argumentative. My apologies. But when you say "devs", are you implying they are like a PR puppet figure? Because, I'm guessing a "lead designer", who happens to give good interviews, is still mostly occupied with leading design.

Having said that, there are other people who give interviews for previews too, producers and stuff. I tend to take what they say with a grain of salt. But only a grain. A good product is a good product.

Modifié par Firky, 18 septembre 2010 - 11:43 .

[Archereon]

Firky wrote...

Archereon wrote...


The point of it is establishing that when we're talking to "devs", what we're hearing is PR approved statements given their own personal spin, or statements that are completely irrelevent to the game.

I'm not deliberately trying to be argumentative. My apologies. But when you say "devs", are you implying they are like a PR puppet figure? Because, I'm guessing a "lead designer", who happens to give good interviews, is still mostly occupied with leading design.

Having said that, there are other people who give interviews for previews too, producers and stuff. I tend to take what they say with a grain of salt.

Public Relations ultimately dictates what a developer is allowed to say and reveal to the community and to the press.  It's their job to keep people from saying something that the press and/or community has a (negative) field day on.

[Meltemph]

 

Public Relations ultimately dictates what a developer is allowed to say 

Only what they can't say but beyond that, it is quite rude and obnoxious to speak for them in a manner of speaking.

[Monica83]

Again with this you are a doomsayer... Is that hard to understeand the fact that dragon age is born like a old style rpg.. And after this is turned in a Action/Rpg and some people feel angry at this? We have Tons of Action/rpg i puchase dragon age because is different from others... But right now i read..



Dialogue wheel pharaprases sistem

Static classes

Forced to play a human...



Sorry if im angry because i liked the fat that dragon age is born like a old style CRPG and now become a sort of Dragon effect.. I don't want to say i don't buy the game.. Bevore buyng i try it if i dont like i don't buy it.. But is normal and completely explanable if i am pissed off with this choices..



And call people doomsayers only because they don't like what they readed is a kid act..

[Firky]

Archereon wrote...

Public Relations ultimately dictates what a developer is allowed to say and reveal to the community and to the press.  It's their job to keep people from saying something that the press and/or community has a (negative) field day on.

No kidding. *shrugs

Anyway, I still find Mike's enthusiasm infectious! And I think its really cool how the developers have had quite an important role in this PR campaign, anyway. That's all I wanted to say.

[Archereon]

Meltemph wrote...

 

Public Relations ultimately dictates what a developer is allowed to say 

Only what they can't say but beyond that, it is quite rude and obnoxious to speak for them in a manner of speaking.

I have a friend who works for PR, and personally work in a heavily PR'd industry, and it often comes down to them specifically telling people "this is what you have to say, say in whatever manner feels natural to you, but make sure it has the same message...Oh and if they ask questions X, Y, and Z, deflect it.  Also, don't reveal details A, B, C, and don't even hint at detail D."

[SirOccam]

Archereon wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

Given the size of the team working on DA2, its almost guaranteed at least one person is dead set in principle (but not practice for the reasons I discussed) against some decision made by the other devs, can't change the other devs' minds, and refuses to change their own mind.

But you are talking about a large difference of the game in its entirety based on fact-less assumptions. I don't even get the point of this, other then trying to artificially put devs on a "side".

The point of it is establishing that when we're talking to "devs", what we're hearing is PR approved statements given their own personal spin, or statements that are completely irrelevent to the game.

Yes but just being PR-approved doesn't imply that it's not true or that it doesn't accurately represent the opinions of the devs.

It's a classic Burden of Proof fallacy. No one can prove you wrong because you've already accounted for all possible responses, and they all support your theory. If a dev comes on and says "yes, I hate x but I still have to do it," then obviously you're right. If a dev comes on and says "no, we all share a common vision and work together and so forth" then you would claim it's evidence that PR or marketing is making them say that. If they say nothing, well then that's the same thing...PR or marketing has issued some kind of gag order, clearly.

You're the one making the assertions, the burden of proof is on you.

[mellifera]

I vote that anyone who uses the term "Dragon Effect" in a serious manner be banned.

No, but seriously. There are legitimate arguments and then there's throwing around phrases like this. "Dragon Effect" is like the "death panels" of the BioWare boards.

Modifié par yukidama, 18 septembre 2010 - 11:57 .

[Meltemph]

Archereon wrote...

Meltemph wrote...

 

Public Relations ultimately dictates what a developer is allowed to say 

Only what they can't say but beyond that, it is quite rude and obnoxious to speak for them in a manner of speaking.

I have a friend who works for PR, and personally work in a heavily PR'd industry, and it often comes down to them specifically telling people "this is what you have to say, say in whatever manner feels natural to you, but make sure it has the same message...Oh and if they ask questions X, Y, and Z, deflect it.  Also, don't reveal details A, B, C, and don't even hint at detail D."

Oh yes the good ol fashion " I work in (insert here) and I have a friend that works (insert here)".  Whatever you think you know or the experience you think you have does not make you an expert in this field nor does it mean that you know when they are or are not being genuine.  Either way there is no point in your idea or view, because it does not discuss the merits of what they say only your preconceptions of what you think is their "true" opinion.

[Archereon]

^Damnit. Spam attack is commencing. Well, I guess that means I'm going offline for the night.

PS: I actually do work in the film industry.  And if that's an example to go by for video games, I'd say its practically confirmed that the PR writes the dev's statements and has them paraphrase it.

Modifié par Archereon, 19 septembre 2010 - 12:01 .

[Monica83]

Im with you yuki Lol o vote to ban myself LOL!



Its just a word for say: Better keep MA and DA distinct