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Quarian Admirals: Not a Zero-Sum Choice?


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#1
Kavadas

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Well, if you sympathize with Quarians in their struggle against the geth it isn't a zero-sum choice.

As I was just finishing up Tali's LM it struck me that that three Quarian admirals don't necessarily have opposing viewpoints and that all of their angles in dealing with the geth could easily be constituted into a single plan.

Qwib-qwib wants peace, Xen wants to reclaim the geth, and Gerrel wants to assault Rannoch and drive the geth out with traditional military forces.

They seem to oppose each other, don't they?

I don't think they do and here's why:

1.  Gerrel, if you choose to allude to the data retrieved from the Alarei after the trial, explicitly states that the civilians will need a sheltered location apart from the fleet if Rannoch is ever to be assaulted.

2.  Gerrel and Xen technically want the same thing but have different ideas on how to make it happen.  Xen's plan is certainly the first choice here as it avoids unnecessary Quarian bloodshed and could, potentially, make the conquest of Rannoch bloodless.

3.  Qwib-Qwib is the only true peace monger here but does he actually want peace?  He wants a colony, I'll give him that.  And like Reegar I feel that he recognizes the price the Quarians would pay if they assaulted Rannoch all Gerrel-style but if he was presented with a high-rate-of-success solution from Xen what would be his reaction of retaking Rannoch?

If you fit all three approaches into a single coherent idea they become steps to a single process rather than competing view.

Obviously the Quarians need shelter and a home, a real home.  Qwib-Qwib leads the charge here and we know that before the geth uprising the Quarians had numerous colonies.

So the first step is to simply establish a true colony world, something the Quarians would have done sooner or later anyways despite having retaken Rannoch yet or not.

The next step, to avoid the obvious bloodshed pointed out by Reegar, would be to begin to covertly hack and conduct virus infilitration attempts on the geth.  The geth won't be reclaimed over night, necessarily, but even controlling a small portion of the total geth population would go along ways.  Look at what Saren and Sovereign achieved with a mere 5%.

And if the Quarians could obtain some type of actual production capacity from established a colony with true industry they could begin to manufacture "geth 2.0" (c'mon, they're not gonna f*** it up twice in a row).

This also adds disposable ground forces to the Quarians military for an assault on Rannoch.

Lastly, you have the assault of Rannoch itself.  I consider this step conditional because it's predicated mostly on the success of Xen's work.  If the Quarians have enough disposable geth, or whatever they produce post-colony-establishment, forces this could potentially be an easy conquest of Rannoch.

I have a sneaking suspicion that we're going to see Tali on the admiralty board come ME3.  If you can make the final paragon/renegade choice in the trial she gets off the exile hook and Rael's reputation is preserved.  She admits, after the trial aboard the Normandy, that some of her people are willing to nominate her (considering her accomplishments, ummm, duh) for a position as admiral.

So my point is that it isn't Gerrel, Xen, or Qwib-Qwib.  They can all be synchronized with one another though, very clearly, Xen is by far the most important player in this game.

And if you're a geth sympathizer...  this isn't the thread for you :P

#2
Moiaussi

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Kavadas wrote...

And if you're a geth sympathizer...  this isn't the thread for you :P


Only those who agree with you need apply?

Scenarios that lead to potential Quarian victory over the Geth are not that hard to come up with. How many of them ensure the Quarians would be available against the Reapers? If the Reapers win, it doesn't matter what the outcome of the Quarian/Geth conflict would be.

If the Reapers lose, both the Quarians and Geth would be there to pick up where they left off afterwards.

#3
Count Viceroy

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As long as both factions are available to fight the reapers when the time comes, I don't mind.

They can do whatever they wish afterwards.

Modifié par Count Viceroy, 18 septembre 2010 - 09:20 .


#4
Major Truth

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The sympathy towards the Geth stuns me to be honest. Up until we met Legion, they were unquestionable enemies of the galaxy. Then in comes Legion and all of a sudden they're ok ?



I'm not fully buying it. If the Geth had done to Humanity what they did to the Quarians we'd hunt them down to extinction. Given the choice I would exterminate them, they're machines

#5
Xilizhra

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The 5% who served the Reapers were unquestionable enemies of the galaxy. Also, we wouldn't be hunting them down to extinction, we'd... be running around the galaxy on spaceships, quite frankly. And do note that the quarians shot first.

#6
Moiaussi

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Major Truth wrote...

The sympathy towards the Geth stuns me to be honest. Up until we met Legion, they were unquestionable enemies of the galaxy. Then in comes Legion and all of a sudden they're ok ?

I'm not fully buying it. If the Geth had done to Humanity what they did to the Quarians we'd hunt them down to extinction. Given the choice I would exterminate them, they're machines


You need to take a look at the old ME1 threads. It wasn't 'unquestionable' until Legion. The concept that there might be multiple Geth factions was considered long before then.

As for 'what the Geth did to the Quarians,' start another thread if you want to discuss that. Would be happy to, but not in this one thanks. Last Quarian thread got locked in significant part over getting side tracked in such a manner.

#7
CroGamer002

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You missed this scenario.

Geth and Quarians make peace and reclaim their homeworld since Geth live in space stations and they don't need planets.





Jesus Christ I'm tired of Geth vs Quarians threads.

#8
Shadow_broker

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Geth are superior to Quarians in every way,

I hope we have the option of quarian genocide in ME3

#9
Kavadas

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Shadow_broker wrote...

Geth are superior to Quarians in every way,
I hope we have the option of quarian genocide in ME3


Thanks for adding to the discussion.

#10
CroGamer002

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Shadow_broker wrote...

Geth are superior to Quarians in every way,
I hope we have the option of quarian genocide in ME3


Gee, thaks for for posting that and for being "good" example of Geth sympathizers.<_<

#11
Habelo

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geth 2.0? wont they just get hacked by other geth?

Shadow_broker wrote...

Geth are superior to Quarians in every way,
I hope we have the option of quarian genocide in ME3


signed

Modifié par Habelo, 18 septembre 2010 - 09:58 .


#12
Major Truth

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The [quote]Xilizhra wrote...

The 5% who served the Reapers were unquestionable enemies of the galaxy. Also, we wouldn't be hunting them down to extinction, we'd... be running around the galaxy on spaceships, quite frankly. And do note that the quarians shot first.[/quote]
[/quote]

5% - where is that stat coming from Legion ? - and yes they shot first against machines they didnt believe to be sentient

[quote]Major Truth wrote...

The sympathy towards the Geth stuns me to be honest. Up until we met Legion, they were unquestionable enemies of the galaxy. Then in comes Legion and all of a sudden they're ok ?

I'm not fully buying it. If the Geth had done to Humanity what they did to the Quarians we'd hunt them down to extinction. Given the choice I would exterminate them, they're machines[/quote]

You need to take a look at the old ME1 threads. It wasn't 'unquestionable' until Legion. The concept that there might be multiple Geth factions was considered long before then.

As for 'what the Geth did to the Quarians,' start another thread if you want to discuss that. Would be happy to, but not in this one thanks. Last Quarian thread got locked in significant part over getting side tracked in such a manner.[/quote]

The relationship between the Geth and Quarians is completely relevent to this thread.. Was the OP not talking about the attitude of the admiralty board towards the Geth.

Relax

Modifié par Major Truth, 18 septembre 2010 - 10:04 .


#13
DanaScu

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Mesina2 wrote...

You missed this scenario.
Geth and Quarians make peace and reclaim their homeworld since Geth live in space stations and they don't need planets.


Jesus Christ I'm tired of Geth vs Quarians threads.


Not only don't need, but maintain the homeworld as a monument, and it names Auschwitz. I don't think that implies a 'WOOT WE WON!!!!!" sentiment. If you actually talk to Legion, it will tell you about it. Even the conversation between the geth and the quarian master that frightened the quarians into deciding to wipe out the geth. "Do I have a soul?" [sarcasm] Obviously its some kind of code for a plan to wipe out the quarians. [/sarcasm]

If the one admiral, Xen, I think, gets her way, the Morning War will start all over again; she wants the geth back as slaves basically. I never figured out whether she wants them mindless, or whether she wants them smart but shackled.

I'm hoping for an Admiral Tali Zorah vas Normandy led negotiation that will result in the quarians getting back their worlds peacefully. Without the slavery thing.  So both will be at full strength for the fight with the reapers.

#14
Xilizhra

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5% - where is that stat coming from Legion ? - and yes they shot first against machines they didnt believe to be sentient


It comes from the codex. And the quarians shot first BECAUSE the geth were sentient.

#15
Whatever42

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Geth would probably just give the homeworld back. Heck, they would probably even assist the Quarians rebuild. All the Quarians have to do is convince the Geth is that they are not genocidal fascists bent on their destruction or enslavement. Of course, considering the Quarians are genocidal fascists bent on detroying or enslaving the Get, that is a tall order.



I'm hoping once Tali becomes an Admiral that she's overthrow the current order and negotiate a peace through Legion.

#16
CroGamer002

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Geth would probably just give the homeworld back. Heck, they would probably even assist the Quarians rebuild. All the Quarians have to do is convince the Geth is that they are not genocidal fascists bent on their destruction or enslavement. Of course, considering the Quarians are genocidal fascists bent on detroying or enslaving the Geth, that is a tall order.

I'm hoping once Tali becomes an Admiral that she's overthrow the current order and negotiate a peace through Legion.



Can you support that claim?

#17
Moiaussi

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Major Truth wrote...

The relationship between the Geth and Quarians is completely relevent to this thread.. Was the OP not talking about the attitude of the admiralty board towards the Geth.

Relax


I tend to agree, however moderator seemed to feel otherwise about the last such thread (titled 'why does noone like the Quarians' or something similar) and cited it as one of the reasons for locking the thread.... so.....

#18
Major Truth

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Moiaussi wrote...

Major Truth wrote...

The relationship between the Geth and Quarians is completely relevent to this thread.. Was the OP not talking about the attitude of the admiralty board towards the Geth.

Relax


I tend to agree, however moderator seemed to feel otherwise about the last such thread (titled 'why does noone like the Quarians' or something similar) and cited it as one of the reasons for locking the thread.... so.....


Ok thats fair enough - point taken

#19
Major Truth

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Xilizhra wrote...


5% - where is that stat coming from Legion ? - and yes they shot first against machines they didnt believe to be sentient

It comes from the codex. And the quarians shot first BECAUSE the geth were sentient.


If its in the codex thats fair enough I stand corrected. In terms of the Quarians they shot first as they believed the Geth were becoming sentient (ie. exterminate them before they all became sentient)

#20
jbblue05

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Tali would be a horrible Admiral

Everytime she leads 90% or more of her team dies

She's been an adult for 2 years on the Flotilla she needs at least a decade or more of experience before she should be considered



She wants war just as bad as Han Gerrel. I don't see how she would be the best admiral for the Flotilla

When its higly likely all the Quarians will die but Shepard will save Tali amd she would be the last Quarian in the Galaxy

#21
Whatever42

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Mesina2 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Geth would probably just give the homeworld back. Heck, they would probably even assist the Quarians rebuild. All the Quarians have to do is convince the Geth is that they are not genocidal fascists bent on their destruction or enslavement. Of course, considering the Quarians are genocidal fascists bent on detroying or enslaving the Geth, that is a tall order.

I'm hoping once Tali becomes an Admiral that she's overthrow the current order and negotiate a peace through Legion.



Can you support that claim?


Besides the admirals supporting war or enslavement? Besides the history where the Quarians attempted to exterminate a specisis when they became sentient? Nope.

But to stay on topic, the problem with the plan isn't that its a bad plan. Its simply that the Quarians do not have the resources to match the Geth period. Every encounter between the two races has been a disaster for the Quarians. Any sensible people would have given up. 

If Tali can create a relationship with Legion, that is the road to reclaiming the homeworld. 

#22
DPSSOC

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Kavadas your unified plan does hit a single stumbling block. Xen's plan for reclaiming the Geth only works if you can get them all at once. If you just gain a portion then the Geth are immediately alerted to what you're doing (loss of connection to reclaimed Geth) or the uninfected Geth simply backup and rewrite the reclaimed ones. In either scenario the Geth catch on and go on the offensive giving Gerrel his war that you seem to be trying to avoid.

Now should the Geth win that confrontation it is likely that they will hunt down and kill Qwib Qwib and the civillians since it is clear the Quarians will never allow the Geth to self determinate and the logical course of action is to wipe them out completely to eliminate the threat they pose.

So the plan does seem to hinge on gaining control of enough of the Geth to ensure a military victory in a single stroke.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 18 septembre 2010 - 10:40 .


#23
Major Truth

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jbblue05 wrote...


Tali would be a horrible Admiral
Everytime she leads 90% or more of her team dies
She's been an adult for 2 years on the Flotilla she needs at least a decade or more of experience before she should be considered

She wants war just as bad as Han Gerrel. I don't see how she would be the best admiral for the Flotilla
When its higly likely all the Quarians will die but Shepard will save Tali amd she would be the last Quarian in the Galaxy


I like Tali and think she's a great ME character, but she is way to young and inexperienced to be an admiral

#24
CroGamer002

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Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Geth would probably just give the homeworld back. Heck, they would probably even assist the Quarians rebuild. All the Quarians have to do is convince the Geth is that they are not genocidal fascists bent on their destruction or enslavement. Of course, considering the Quarians are genocidal fascists bent on detroying or enslaving the Geth, that is a tall order.

I'm hoping once Tali becomes an Admiral that she's overthrow the current order and negotiate a peace through Legion.



Can you support that claim?


Besides the admirals supporting war or enslavement? Besides the history where the Quarians attempted to exterminate a specisis when they became sentient? Nope.

But to stay on topic, the problem with the plan isn't that its a bad plan. Its simply that the Quarians do not have the resources to match the Geth period. Every encounter between the two races has been a disaster for the Quarians. Any sensible people would have given up. 

If Tali can create a relationship with Legion, that is the road to reclaiming the homeworld



It is on topic.
Only Xen is for enslavement!
And yes, Quairans f*cked up in Morning War but that still doesn't make them genocidal fascists.

#25
Rivercurse

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Mesina2 wrote...
And yes, Quairans f*cked up in Morning War but that still doesn't make them genocidal fascists.


I agree with this.  I can't imagine humans taking a different action if we were in their position.

The will/opinion of the admirals cannot represent the groundswell of opinion amongst the species.

Modifié par Rivercurse, 18 septembre 2010 - 10:52 .