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Quarian Admirals: Not a Zero-Sum Choice?


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#26
Moiaussi

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jbblue05 wrote...


Tali would be a horrible Admiral
Everytime she leads 90% or more of her team dies
She's been an adult for 2 years on the Flotilla she needs at least a decade or more of experience before she should be considered

She wants war just as bad as Han Gerrel. I don't see how she would be the best admiral for the Flotilla
When its higly likely all the Quarians will die but Shepard will save Tali amd she would be the last Quarian in the Galaxy


You figure she was the tactical leader on Haestrom? You do realize that political leadership does not always imply nor require battlefield leadership? She definately wasn't the field leader on Freedom's Progress. The tactical commader there ignored her and got their people slaughtered.

She has had more field experience that the vast majority in the Migrant Fleet, and likely more than the entire Admiralty.

#27
Major Truth

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Moiaussi wrote...

jbblue05 wrote...


Tali would be a horrible Admiral
Everytime she leads 90% or more of her team dies
She's been an adult for 2 years on the Flotilla she needs at least a decade or more of experience before she should be considered

She wants war just as bad as Han Gerrel. I don't see how she would be the best admiral for the Flotilla
When its higly likely all the Quarians will die but Shepard will save Tali amd she would be the last Quarian in the Galaxy


You figure she was the tactical leader on Haestrom? You do realize that political leadership does not always imply nor require battlefield leadership? She definately wasn't the field leader on Freedom's Progress. The tactical commader there ignored her and got their people slaughtered.

She has had more field experience that the vast majority in the Migrant Fleet, and likely more than the entire Admiralty.


100% agree - that mission was a failue because Tali was ignored by the Quarian military presnece their

#28
AdamNW

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Quarians need to just get over themselves and find a new home planet.

Modifié par AdamNW, 18 septembre 2010 - 11:20 .


#29
Major Truth

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AdamNW wrote...

Quarians need to just get over themselves and find a new home planet.


my Shepard will help them kick the Geth into Sapce and retake the home world

If the same thing happened to humanity would you be of the same opinion ?

Modifié par Major Truth, 18 septembre 2010 - 11:51 .


#30
jbblue05

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Moiaussi wrote...

You figure she was the tactical leader on Haestrom? You do realize that political leadership does not always imply nor require battlefield leadership? She definately wasn't the field leader on Freedom's Progress. The tactical commader there ignored her and got their people slaughtered.

She has had more field experience that the vast majority in the Migrant Fleet, and likely more than the entire Admiralty.


Haestrom was still Tali's mission and evryone dies except for Kal Reeger ( If you kill the Colossus fast enough)

We know Tali's politics she wants war with the Geth. Unlike her father Dano Xen and Han Gerrel Tali doesn't have a plan.  Tali is a follower not a leader.  All Tali has going for her is being a henchmen for Shepard and having success.

Tali chose to leave the Flotilla to serve under Shepard when she could be helping her people.
Tali was in charge of the ground team on Freedom's Progress notice how she tells Prazza your working for me not Cerberus and tells him to go wait on the ship. 
Tali couldn't keep Prazza in check and the Quarians got slaughtered as a result.

Your contradicting yourself you say political leadership doesn't imply battlefield leadership but then you say Tali has more combat experience then the Admirality Board.Image IPB

What is your reason for her being a good Admiral???Image IPB 

#31
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Kavadas wrote...

Gerrel, if you choose to allude to the data retrieved from the Alarei after the trial, explicitly states that the civilians will need a sheltered location apart from the fleet if Rannoch is ever to be assaulted.


No, Gerrel says they'll need some place to shelter their civilians if they are to fight the Reapers. A slight difference. If the quarians were to find a colony there's a good chance they'd settle down and give up on the homeworld entirely. That is why some quarians oppose settling down on a new colony. (this is brought up in Ascension)

Kavadas wrote...

Qwib-Qwib is the only true peace monger here but does he actually want peace?


Considering his reaction to the tests done on the Alerai? Yes, I think he is the real deal. He is a true geth sympathizer and also an anthropomorphizer. He thinks the geth slaughtered the people on the Alerai because they were in pain. Geth don't feel pain so we know that wasn't true.

Ultimately I agree with the basic premise of your post. Though I would say if the quarians want their world back then they need to forget about starting a new colony someplace else. The way it works is first they find a way to communicate with the geth and simply ask the geth to vacate their world, allowing them to return. Meanwhile Gerrel makes war plans and Xen conducts research. If peace works then great, the quarians get back their world and Han and Daro's plans are a back-up in case the geth ever go back on their word. Otherwise if peace talks don't get anywhere the quarains will eventually have the strategy and weapons they need to retake their homeworld.

We know from Legion's mission to board the Reaper and stop the heretic virus that permanent hacking of the geth that forever changes their way of thinking is possible. If the heretics can do it then so can Daro'Xen. The question then is how to deploy their new weapon.

They can either hack nearby server nodes to gain control of those geth, bolstering their own forces, or if they can find a central location that the main geth use, similar to the heretic station, then the quarians can reclaim  them all at once. In the end it might be a little bit of both. What the quarians could do is find isolated geth enclaves and take control of those, then once they have enough they begin a more conventional assault on their homeworld, hacking geth as they go.

I want to add one thing though: the quarians don't need to worry about having disposable ground troops. They don't need to worry about ground troops at all. What the quarians need to do is win in space. Once they've obtained orbital superiority they can simply bomb all of the geth on their homeworld. All that will happen is a lot of dust and debris will get kicked into the air which will settle back down after a few months or a couple of years at the most.

#32
Moiaussi

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jbblue05 wrote...

Haestrom was still Tali's mission and evryone dies except for Kal Reeger ( If you kill the Colossus fast enough)


Shepard couldn't save several of those 'everyone' either. Why would you assume it was Tali in charge tacticly? She had her part of the mission and Kal was likely in charge of the rest. Also her communications seemed very limited. She is communicating only through the internal com unit of that base, likely because it is a land line and the Geth are less likely to be tapped into it.

Also. that mission *is* in Geth space, and we don't know how many the Quarians already took down.

We know Tali's politics she wants war with the Geth. Unlike her father Dano Xen and Han Gerrel Tali doesn't have a plan.  Tali is a follower not a leader.  All Tali has going for her is being a henchmen for Shepard and having success.


She wants war with the Geth but is not reckless about it. What you see as 'not having a plan' she sees as 'not endangering the fleet. Meanwhile she was assisting her father. Why should she be pursuing a plan of her own?

Tali chose to leave the Flotilla to serve under Shepard when she could be helping her people.
Tali was in charge of the ground team on Freedom's Progress notice how she tells Prazza your working for me not Cerberus and tells him to go wait on the ship. 
Tali couldn't keep Prazza in check and the Quarians got slaughtered as a result.


And Shepard could keep Conrad Verner in check so easily, short of shooting him? Despite considerable more experience as a field commander? Or for that matter, Jenkins? I still maintain that Prazza was tactical commander.

Your contradicting yourself you say political leadership doesn't imply battlefield leadership but then you say Tali has more combat experience then the Admirality Board.Image IPB


That isn't a contradiction though. Having both isn't a detriment. If her losses are held against her, then it begs the question of how other Quarians would have done under similar circumstances.  A couple Quarian units were sent in to attempt to recover the Geth occupied vessel in Tali's loyalty mission. Have you considered that the problem might not be Tali, but simply a general lack of Quarian military discipline?

What is your reason for her being a good Admiral???Image IPB 


Knowledge. She knows the Geth better than any surviving Quarian (possibly even better than her dad did, since he only had rebuilt models likely with corrupted software... she has routinely faced active Geth in the field), and she understands the Reaper threat, which supercedes any conflict with the Geth, or at least should.

#33
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Moiaussi wrote...

Or for that matter, Jenkins?


Uh... Jenkins was just fine. Shepard had him on point and ordered him forward ahead of the squad. He got shot. Bad luck is all that was.

#34
NanQuan

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Shandepared wrote...


Ultimately I agree with the basic premise of your post. Though I would say if the quarians want their world back then they need to forget about starting a new colony someplace else. The way it works is first they find a way to communicate with the geth and simply ask the geth to vacate their world, allowing them to return. Meanwhile Gerrel makes war plans and Xen conducts research. If peace works then great, the quarians get back their world and Han and Daro's plans are a back-up in case the geth ever go back on their word. Otherwise if peace talks don't get anywhere the quarains will eventually have the strategy and weapons they need to retake their homeworld.

Extend one hand and arm the other. I see someone has been listening to Wrex :lol: Which is not a bad thing to do lol. From a purely practical standpoint (from the Quarian perspective) I would agree that this is their best option.

#35
Moiaussi

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Shandepared wrote...

Considering his reaction to the tests done on the Alerai? Yes, I think he is the real deal. He is a true geth sympathizer and also an anthropomorphizer. He thinks the geth slaughtered the people on the Alerai because they were in pain. Geth don't feel pain so we know that wasn't true.


Still denying that they react to damage and likewise denying they have a self preservation instinct?

We know from Legion's mission to board the Reaper and stop the heretic virus that permanent hacking of the geth that forever changes their way of thinking is possible. If the heretics can do it then so can Daro'Xen. The question then is how to deploy their new weapon.


No, there is also the question of whether their lab testing would be sufficiently adequate to ensure their virus would be any more effective than their first attempt. The Heretics have a lot more information to work with. Also, it was the Orthidox Geth whose destruct codes were successful. We don't really know for certain about either side's reprogrammnig codes.

We are risking getting off topic again though....

#36
Moiaussi

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Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Or for that matter, Jenkins?


Uh... Jenkins was just fine. Shepard had him on point and ordered him forward ahead of the squad. He got shot. Bad luck is all that was.


He could have been given a better order than 'hey, why don't you charge out into the open ahead of us and see if anything shoots at you'   There was cover.

#37
wizardryforever

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I would have to disagree with the OP in that most of the elements of the three Admirals' plans are incompatible.  Establishing peaceful relations with the Geth is an intergral part of Korris' plan, controlling them is Xen's plan, and destroying them is Gerrol's plan.  You really can't do all three.  The most you could do is two, depending on how you look at it, though peaceful relations and destruction are mutually exclusive no matter how you slice it.

Personally I'm inclined to agree with Korris, despite him coming across as whiny.  I think Shand is right that no matter the case, peaceful dialogue with the Geth should at least be attempted, and if that fails, then possibly resort to more drastic measures.  If Legion was telling the truth (why would he lie anyway), then tentative peace, or at least a ceasefire, could be arranged.  It might even be welcomed by the Geth, who are trying to understand organics, particularly their creators.  The fact that they are trying to understand the Quarians leads me to believe that they aren't deadset on destroying the Quarians.  Then there is the fact that the Geth did not pursue the Quarians from beyond the Perseus Veil, when they could have.  I think peace is not only possible, but vital to securing both races' support for the war with the Reapers.

#38
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Moiaussi wrote...

Still denying that they react to damage and likewise denying they have a self preservation instinct?


So do bacteria.


Moiaussi wrote...

No, there is also the question of whether their lab testing would be sufficiently adequate to ensure their virus would be any more effective than their first attempt.


Unless you think Daro'Xen is an idiot I don't see why you'd be worried about this. I think you're just desperate to find excuses for why the quarians wouldn't be able to win. Probably because at heart you're a geth fetishist.

I'm sorry, but Legion doesn't love you and he never will. Give it a break.

#39
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Moiaussi wrote...

He could have been given a better order than 'hey, why don't you charge out into the open ahead of us and see if anything shoots at you'   There was cover.


Well who's fault would that be? Shepard gave the order, not Jenkins. In any case Jenkins was killed before he could have even gotten to cover. The guy took a few steps and BAM! Dead.

#40
Xilizhra

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You know, Shan, your sarcasm is never actually funny. And geth do have emotion, or at least don't always act in a wholly logical manner; witness Legion's "no data available." They may be in the midst of evolving emotion as they evolved sapience, though they wouldn't fully understand it; it's fascinating to see, and there's no point in continuing the war.

#41
Moiaussi

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Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

He could have been given a better order than 'hey, why don't you charge out into the open ahead of us and see if anything shoots at you'   There was cover.


Well who's fault would that be? Shepard gave the order, not Jenkins. In any case Jenkins was killed before he could have even gotten to cover. The guy took a few steps and BAM! Dead.


He could have moved along the hillside and been less of a target. Strange how Shepard was able to get to cover easily enough.... and I was defending Tali's command by pointing out that Shepard's isn't perfect either.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 19 septembre 2010 - 01:09 .


#42
Xilizhra

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Kaidan's line sums up the situation with Jenkins perfectly: "I was there. You did everything right. It was just bad luck." No one knew that the power of Plot would render Jenkins' shields and armor utterly worthless and let him be killed in fewer hits than anyone else in the Mass Effect series (in combat).

#43
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Mesina2 wrote...

It is on topic.
Only Xen is for enslavement!
And yes, Quairans f*cked up in Morning War but that still doesn't make them genocidal fascists.


Ok, perhaps that was a bit of hyperbole on my part. ;)

My main point was that with Tali and Legion actually talking, I think she would be foolish not to try to create some sort of negotiation. With three of four admirals supporting violence, however, I don't believe that would be possible with the current admiralty. And as good as the presented plan is, the Quarians are simply outmatched.

Also, the Geth know that the Quarians are constantly plotting and will be well aware of any colonization effort and will watch it carefully. Currently, I think the Quarians probably only survive because the Geth do not view them as a threat. 

The only real possible solution, imho, is peace.

#44
Xilizhra

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Three of four? Shala'Raan is neutral but would probably go with Koris with Rael dead. Han'Garrel wants war but seems quite rational, and if convinced that peace really was possible, I think he'd back down. Xen is the only crazily driven one.

#45
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Xilizhra wrote...

And geth do have emotion, or at least don't always act in a wholly logical manner; witness Legion's "no data available."


No, they do not have emotion and the "no data available" comment could be mean anything.

#46
Xilizhra

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Oh, it could mean many things. But it's not worth rushing into a foolish and counterproductive war for.

#47
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Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, it could mean many things. But it's not worth rushing into a foolish and counterproductive war for.


A war is neither foolish nor counterproductive as long as it is approached with the right strategy in mind (namely Xen's).

#48
Xilizhra

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Unfortunately, the very premise of the war is both. The Reapers are a threat to the geth as well, and the heretics that terrorized the galaxy are only 5% of their population. You criticize me for throwing the Collector base away; imagine what the geth can do. Imagine, too, how many lives on both sides could be saved if the quarians and geth put aside their war now.

#49
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Xilizhra wrote...

Unfortunately, the very premise of the war is both. The Reapers are a threat to the geth as well...


With Xen's plan we'll have both armies intact and the quarians will have a place to shelter their civilians.

#50
Xilizhra

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Maybe. The only people who could come up with a way to hack geth is other geth, and I really doubt that Xen can do everything she says she can in an amount of time this short. It's an enormous risk, and the entire quarian flotilla will pay with their lives if it fails (not to mention the issues with enslaving the geth, but you don't believe that that's valid anyway).