136 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

lovgreno wrote...

Thing is that complicated things like hacking all Geth needs to be tested on a large scale before you can claim that it's are a effective method.

The heretic virus wasn't tested on a large scale. Geth are not individuals.

Capture five geth hubs. Hack one.

Connect it to another hub and see which one is over-written.

Once you devise a virus that can't be over-written by uninfected programs you win.

The Geth are all connected in close to real time by the hyperspace communications (per Legion). Hence Legion is "Geth" rather than 'a Geth" of "a Geth colony."

So it is potentially hitting all Geth at once. If it wasn't it would be even worse an option since the Geth would have more time to find a counter.

The Heretics had much better data and we don't know for certain how well their hacking would have worked, do we? We do know that the Orthedox 'kill' program worked, but the jury's out on the reprogram option. Note that the Orthedox Geth had even better data to work with (having more Geth and having a copy of the Heretic virus to study), and even they weren't completely sure of the outcome.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 19 septembre 2010 - 03:21 .

[Razor_Zeng]

Major Truth wrote...

AdamNW wrote...



Quarians need to just get over themselves and find a new home planet.

my Shepard will help them kick the Geth into Sapce and retake the home world



If the same thing happened to humanity would you be of the same opinion ?

If humanity lost a war against a species we created? Yeah I would say "Get over it and get a new planet. We have shown we are the hate mongers here"



The Geth didn't attack first. They defended themselves against an aggressive force who were hell bent on wiping them out. The Geth haven't attacked the Quarians except when the Quarians invade their space like on Haestrom.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

The only way the Quarians are going to have a happy ending here is if they make peace with the Geth and are either allowed into the Vail to try and re-establish themselves on their former worlds. The idea that the Quarians could retake their homeworld by force is simply silly to the extent that it makes me laugh. The Quarians got slaughtered on their own worlds by the Geth over 300 years ago, that was when the Quarians actually had a military and had millions of soilders and probably thousands of warship... it didn't matter the Geath beat them. Now some Quarians have deluded themselves into thinking they'd have a chance against the Geth now? The Geth have probably become 100 times stronger since the beat the Quarians while the Quarians on the other hand have a big fleet of junk ships 99% of which aren't even capable of fighting and those that can are probably extremely old too. If the Migrant Fleet got more than a mile past the Veil without being blown apart I'd be shocked.



Then the virus... The Geth are impossible to hack. The virus that Legion mentions was developed by Soverign and was finished by the heritics. Think about that a race that has excisted for billions of years made this virus and they didn't even know how to make it work unless other Geth who had personal knowledge of their own systems finished it and even then it took years to make. Now that Legion knows about how the virus would work the Core Geth would have worked away to avoid this risk in the future. So the idea that any race could come up with a virus that would affect them seems unlikely to do anything other than make the Geth made and destroy the Fleet for trying.



The Quarians need to accept one of two options. Make piece, or Die either slowly in the Fleet or being blasted by the Geth.

[scotchtape622]

"Then the virus... The Geth are impossible to hack. The virus that Legion mentions was developed by Soverign and was finished by the heritics. Think about that a race that has excisted for billions of years made this virus and they didn't even know how to make it work unless other Geth who had personal knowledge of their own systems finished it and even then it took years to make. Now that Legion knows about how the virus would work the Core Geth would have worked away to avoid this risk in the future. So the idea that any race could come up with a virus that would affect them seems unlikely to do anything other than make the Geth made and destroy the Fleet for trying."



Incorrect, Rael'Zorah was apparently making some serious progress on the virus, and saying "Geth can't be hacked" or "seems unlikely" doesn't make it true, and doesn't make it impossible.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

What was he testing on? Half destroyed Geth who had probably had alot of their systems and programs destroyed? A fully functional Geth would be able to fix itself quickly after being affected. Even Tali believes that trying to re-inslave the Geth is a foolish notion that will only result in failure. We should also not be so quick to believe Rael when he said that he was makin progress... lets not forget that his experiment ended in the most total failure possible being slaughtered by the Geth.



I think that was suppose to serve as an example that the idea of hacking the Geth won't work, it will only end in the Quarian's destruction.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

The Geth are all connected in close to real time by the hyperspace communications (per Legion). Hence Legion is "Geth" rather than 'a Geth" of "a Geth colony."

I'd appreciate if you took the time to know what you were talking about before arguing with me.

Ever follow your own advice? Per the Wiki: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

As all geth are networked to each other, they may communicate their exact thoughts and ideas at the speed of light. They find organic methods of communication, such as body language and spoken word, to be largely inefficient; the geth are able to communicate their thoughts flawlessly without any fear of misinterpretation. Because of this they have no true form of government and no system of rank. When a matter must be decided upon, the geth communicate all viewpoints of a situation and a consensus is made, the decision being whatever benefits the geth as a whole the greatest.

[DPSSOC]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

What was he testing on? Half destroyed Geth who had probably had alot of their systems and programs destroyed? A fully functional Geth would be able to fix itself quickly after being affected. Even Tali believes that trying to re-inslave the Geth is a foolish notion that will only result in failure. We should also not be so quick to believe Rael when he said that he was makin progress... lets not forget that his experiment ended in the most total failure possible being slaughtered by the Geth.

I think that was suppose to serve as an example that the idea of hacking the Geth won't work, it will only end in the Quarian's destruction.

In defense of Rael's experiment it was only a collosal failure because Rael himself ordered his staff to bypass security protocols in order to work faster.  I think if anything this was an example of the idea that quick science is messy much like many Cerberus experiments.  If Xen is patient enough there is no reason she could not duplicate Rael's experiments without risking severe casualties.

Note: I'm not speaking out against quick science however one must accept that when you choose quick science over safe science the risk of catastrophic failure increases dramatically.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Legion and Tali both see the idea of re-inslaving the Geth as something that won't work. Even after seeing what Rael was able to do (Which is nothing, we were never given any real prooff that he was able to do anything that would affect a functional Geth) They both believe that course of action is foolish.



The Quarians got ripped apart becasuse they wanted to keep the Geth as their slaves and they got ripped apart... the idea that people think that making the same mistake again is a valid or even a good idea seems silly to me. How many times do you have to run into a wall before you realise that you shouldn't do it anymore? They should either make peace with the Geth, find a new world, or get busy dying that is the fate that is awaiting these people they should accept it and choice which of the 3 they want to do.

[Moiaussi]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

What was he testing on? Half destroyed Geth who had probably had alot of their systems and programs destroyed? A fully functional Geth would be able to fix itself quickly after being affected. Even Tali believes that trying to re-inslave the Geth is a foolish notion that will only result in failure. We should also not be so quick to believe Rael when he said that he was makin progress... lets not forget that his experiment ended in the most total failure possible being slaughtered by the Geth.

I think that was suppose to serve as an example that the idea of hacking the Geth won't work, it will only end in the Quarian's destruction.

To elabourate on this, it is possible but not safe. Even the Geth aren't even sure control will work.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

That doesn't contradict anything I've said, Maoiussi.

How does it contradict anything I said? I said they are all in close to real time communication via hyperspace and you insulted me for saying so. Now you are going to try to turn that around somehow?

What exactly did you think I had to research?

[GenericPlayer2]

Sticking to the narrow issue laid down by the OP, there is nothing in the prime fiction that indicates the Quarians will be successful in carrying out any plan. Every single time Shepard comes into contact with a Quarian, he/she is in dire need of assistance. This could be an entire squad dying to a YMIR mech on Freedom's Progress, the failed incursion on Haelstrom, indentured service, criminal accusations, inability to guard a camp against Varren....and so the list of failures continues.



So the real question is, are the writers going to turn around and give the Q-people a win?

[Moiaussi]

GenericPlayer2 wrote...

Sticking to the narrow issue laid down by the OP, there is nothing in the prime fiction that indicates the Quarians will be successful in carrying out any plan. Every single time Shepard comes into contact with a Quarian, he/she is in dire need of assistance. This could be an entire squad dying to a YMIR mech on Freedom's Progress, the failed incursion on Haelstrom, indentured service, criminal accusations, inability to guard a camp against Varren....and so the list of failures continues.

So the real question is, are the writers going to turn around and give the Q-people a win?

There is a general issue with all governments mucking around in ME1 and 2. I am really hoping that there is the kind of iminent threat needed to wake them up at the start of ME3. It would have been nice if it had been at the end of ME2, but oh well....

[Burdokva]

Major Truth wrote...

I'm not fully buying it. If the Geth had done to Humanity what they did to the Quarians we'd hunt them down to extinction. Given the choice I would exterminate them, they're machines

If the quarians had done to Humanity what they did with the geth, wouldn't we hunt them down?

I'm also stunned by how people bash Cerberus with mouths foaming with anger, they're supremacist, evil!, but are completely okay with the genocidal, racist and secluded quarians.

And Legion's situation is not entirely different from that of Tali. A legion of her fans (heh) want to get in the pans of their sweet bucket-head and pretend quarians are innocent victims.

If Legion is right about the heretics being a small minority, and the quarians attack, I'm taking my SPECTRE Shepard with a Citadel and Alliance fleet to pummel down the quarians.

Modifié par Burdokva, 19 septembre 2010 - 08:03 .

[Aedan_Cousland]

Major Truth wrote...

The sympathy towards the Geth stuns me to be honest. Up until we met Legion, they were unquestionable enemies of the galaxy. Then in comes Legion and all of a sudden they're ok ?

I was sympathetic to the Geth in Mass Effect 1, from the very first conversation I had with Tali about their origins. Obviously you spend most of the game fighting the Geth but that conversation with Tali made it fairly obvious that the Geth weren't the one-sided villains they had previously been portrayed as. The Quarians were the 'bad guys' in the Morning War. That conversation also made it obvious that something big was going to happen with the Geth, and that they weren't going to be Saren/Sovereign's allies forever. I knew from that conversation that the Geth would eventually be allies of Shepard, otherwise Bioware would have made them one dimensional villains like the darkspawn.

[Lvl20DM]

The post-mission email from Xen makes me think she will be an antagonist in ME3. The Morning War comes down to a massive misunderstanding, I can't really blame either side.

[Slayer299]

Burdokva wrote...

Major Truth wrote...

I'm not fully buying it. If the Geth had done to Humanity what they did to the Quarians we'd hunt them down to extinction. Given the choice I would exterminate them, they're machines

If the quarians had done to Humanity what they did with the geth, wouldn't we hunt them down?

I'm also stunned by how people bash Cerberus with mouths foaming with anger, they're supremacist, evil!, but are completely okay with the genocidal, racist and secluded quarians.

And Legion's situation is not entirely different from that of Tali. A legion of her fans (heh) want to get in the pans of their sweet bucket-head and pretend quarians are innocent victims.

If Legion is right about the heretics being a small minority, and the quarians attack, I'm taking my SPECTRE Shepard with a Citadel and Alliance fleet to pummel down the quarians.

Of course people bash Cerberus (but that's another thread entirely) but I don't see how you can call the Quarians racist for wanting to wipe the toasters, I mean Geth, out. But seriously though, the Quarians lost billions and their entire population is now a whopping 17 million so I hardly think their desire for revenge is racist. As for being secluded it was the Council that threatened to bombard any planet the Quarians tries to settle down on and since they were kicked out by the Council every species (barring the System Alliance yet) has made it known that the Quarians are not wanted anywhere close to them.

As to Legion what makes his word so completely trustworthy? Right now I'm willing to accept his word on the Geth, but only with a grain of salt until he proves himself to be trustworthy in my Sheps eyes and as of now he's not. Not that you can accept the Quarians POV on the events of the Morning War as unbiased.

[Xilizhra]

Shan, this may count as just arguing by authority, but I should point out that even TIM wants the quarians and geth to make peace (so that the quarians have their fleet intact for fighting the Reapers).

As to Legion what makes his word so completely trustworthy? Right now I'm willing to accept his word on the Geth, but only with a grain of salt until he proves himself to be trustworthy in my Sheps eyes and as of now he's not. Not that you can accept the Quarians POV on the events of the Morning War as unbiased.

Legion haven't made themselves untrustworthy, in my eyes. And the codex confirms their information.

[Slayer299]

Xillzhra, what does the Codex prove, that the Quarians struck first in fear that they could potentially soon have an entire race of sentient, homicidal machines on their hands? Well we know the answer to that one. But in-game my shep isn't reading the Codex

[Xilizhra]

Yes, the quarians attempted genocide out of fear, which is a marginally better reason than, say, hatred. But the fear wasn't well-reasoned.

[Moiaussi]

Shandepared wrote...

The quarians are not genocidal. I find it weird that you are so easy blaming the victims of genocide whilst apologizing for the genocidal, isolationist geth.

Doesn't your entire position on that hinge on your not considering the Geth a sentient race, though? Contrary to the codex or more direct evidence via conversations with Legion?

You were implying this invalidated the strategy I proposed. Or I thought you were. Maybe you were just rambling.

Actually I was correcting you on a point of fact.

You would likely not be infecting small numbers at a time, since they are connected in real time, so you would have the entire Geth population available to help fight the virus. The Geth Heretics had Sovereign's help and the Orthedox have sufficient data to analyze effects on larger populations. Even so, the latter are not completely sure of the ramifications of their 'overwrite' virus. If they are not completely sure and consider only the kill option to be safe, how could a Quarian lab developed virus be safe other than blind luck?

You have said more that once that your justification for destroying the Rachni and the Geth is that you don't feel you could take the chance with them surviving, yet you don't mind taking other chances such as the virus appearing to work, but getting shrugged off subsequently, resulting in a second Morning War and wiping out all or at least a large percentage of the Migrant Fleet's population? Safe bet that if there is a next time the Geth would know better than to warn the Quarians that they had once again become sentient.

[Moiaussi]

Slayer299 wrote...

Xillzhra, what does the Codex prove, that the Quarians struck first in fear that they could potentially soon have an entire race of sentient, homicidal machines on their hands? Well we know the answer to that one. But in-game my shep isn't reading the Codex

Actually I got the impression that the Codex represented what Shepard learns along the way, his 'library computer' as it were.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

The quarians are not genocidal. I find it weird that you are so easy blaming the victims of genocide whilst apologizing for the genocidal, isolationist geth.

Doesn't your entire position on that hinge on your not considering the Geth a sentient race, though? Contrary to the codex or more direct evidence via conversations with Legion?

It isn't contrary to 'direct evidence', or even to the codex. The Geth are AI, but as Shand and I have had back and forths before, he doesn't believe that Geth AI are anything more than complex layers VI, and those can not be considered sentient since they can be printed out and have their actions predicted by their coding.

Since Geth are individual AI, and they only gather 'intelligence' by coming together, the gestalt AI is really only the product of complex interactions between predictable AI, and is in and of itself predictable (if you had the means and all the proper variables and a code that could encompass a galaxy). Since VI are predictable, and the Geth are just layers and layers of them, Shand's position has been that the Geth are complex VI with a sophistication approaching intelligence, but are not actually intelligent as opposed to following the practically unpredictable highly complex algorithms that compose them.

And no VI, no matter how sophisticated, can be considered sentient or alive if it is, at heart, just a act/reaction computer program. Legion remains just a complicated, unique VI.


It comes down to a perception on what you consider life, which is not contradicted by the codex. All the codex says is along the lines that the Geth are a race of AI. But the first letter still stands for artificial, and if you don't believe that something close to real is not equivalent to being real, it still isn't real. (Sort of how if you believe that technology indistinguishable from magic is still not magic.)

Actually I was correcting you on a point of fact.

You would likely not be infecting small numbers at a time, since they are connected in real time, so you would have the entire Geth population available to help fight the virus. The Geth Heretics had Sovereign's help and the Orthedox have sufficient data to analyze effects on larger populations. Even so, the latter are not completely sure of the ramifications of their 'overwrite' virus. If they are not completely sure and consider only the kill option to be safe, how could a Quarian lab developed virus be safe other than blind luck?

The Geth aren't all connected in real time always: that's why Legion has to connect via the Normandy, and why the Heretic virus, rewritten or not, takes awhile. While major clusters stay in FTL comm trafic with eachother, these relays can be broken, and the geth isolated from eachother. Short of a quantam com system inside each node, they can be divided and then tested on without the outside geth being able to know or do anything about it.

Once a virus is made, it can work for the same reasons the Heretic virus does: by the time any Geth touch it, they are infected.