Moiaussi wrote...
Dean_the_Young wrote...
It isn't contrary to 'direct evidence', or even to the codex. The Geth are AI, but as Shand and I have had back and forths before, he doesn't believe that Geth AI are anything more than complex layers VI, and those can not be considered sentient since they can be printed out and have their actions predicted by their coding.
Since Geth are individual AI, and they only gather 'intelligence' by coming together, the gestalt AI is really only the product of complex interactions between predictable AI, and is in and of itself predictable (if you had the means and all the proper variables and a code that could encompass a galaxy). Since VI are predictable, and the Geth are just layers and layers of them, Shand's position has been that the Geth are complex VI with a sophistication approaching intelligence, but are not actually intelligent as opposed to following the practically unpredictable highly complex algorithms that compose them.
And no VI, no matter how sophisticated, can be considered sentient or alive if it is, at heart, just a act/reaction computer program. Legion remains just a complicated, unique VI.
And your proof of any of that is what, exactly? The codex says they are sentient. Period. How is saying 'no they aren't' not a contradiction of the codex?
Proof of what part? That the geth are complex VI? That's backstory. Sentience? That comes to how you define sentience: is complex function that seems indistinguishable from sentience really sentience? That's a issue which there can be no godly codex answer, considering how there is no consensus on a singular definition or concept.
In fact, and here you should remember that I was just enlightening you on Shand's position, not my own, there's debate even today about whether even humans have free will. Are we, ourselves, capable of truly independent choice? Or is our every action, thought, reaction, the predictable and inevitable outcome of our chemistry and a system of events simply too complex for ourselves to map? If we are, then we are not different from the Geth, and 'complex enough to be considered sentient'
is the equivalent of sentience.
So Shepard is less than human, or perhaps not even alive at all, then, since he was artificially brought back from the dead, and for that matter has much of his body replaced by cybernetics? Are clones 'not life' even though if they are completely indistinguishable from humans other than means of creation? Is Grunt 'not life?'
Where you getting that cybernetics replace free will? The issue isn't that geth have metalic limbs, but that the Geth mind is inherently predictable (predictable VI working together in mathematical ways) and therefore not truely alive.
Your issue of clones is similarly confusing. It assumes, for example, that clones will be predictable and will always take the same choices as their original, when in fact cloned animals have shown to be quite capable of different behaviors and habits from their originator. Unless you indulge in a sci-fi conceit that clones are absolute perfect replicas in every single respect, not only physically but mentally as well, then they can't serve as a metaphor for predictable VI.
You see where the problem with your logic is?
No, though it could be because you chose horribly mis-aimed counterpoints.
Where is there anything about Legion connecting via the Normandy? And isn't it possible that is simply because the Normandy is blocking unauthorized transmissions?
When you talk to Legion whenever he connects to the Geth whole, he asks for permission to go through the Normandy's FTL communication network.
The fact that Legion can be isolated at all, regardless of why, rather illustrates the point that a cluster of geth could be isolated and tested on.
Where is the rest of your information coming from? I don't remember that from in game. If it is as you suggest, why wouldn't the Geth on losing communications buffer any new transmissions through an isolated system that they can analyze? Toss the communications into a black box until it is confirmed safe?
I'm afraid I don't know which information you're referring to. That geth can be infected before they know it? That comes from Legion about the Heretic virus, and the understanding of how any effective virus has to be able to evade detection (or take advantage) of the regular backup process that makes Geth conventionally hack-proof.
We know that the Geth
are hackable despite their defenses. The Heretics did it, the Quarians were on the cusp of a breakthrough, Cerberus found ways to get around it. How, we don't have every detail. But if they can, I think it would be rather conceited to assume that they couldn't take into account something you pulled off the top of your head.
It may not be that communications are all real time other than by way of the hubs, but the implication that even on the geth base, geth in mobile platforms are not in communication with the main population makes no sense at all. If Geth operate with no communications like that, how do they coordinate in battle and how are they hackable at all?
How do humans coordinate? How do conventional computers communicate? We send signals and messages at regular intervals. That geth aren't in constant contact is different from that they aren't ever in contact, and certainly neither implies they can't be isolated.
Geth are long-term hack-proof because their anti-hack nature is that they have archival copies, which are compared to the Geth systems regularly. When a hacking occurs, it leaves a change that, when detected, is replaced by the archival copy*. Geth on their own, with no means to contact backup copies, are easy to hack. It isn't that geth are unhackable, it's that the hacks don't last for long.
I'm afraid, again, you aren't clear, so I'm not sure what to address.
*The fact that individual geth are archival programs that can be copied and pasted is one of the largest arguments against true geth sentience and free will.
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