136 réponses à ce sujet

[ISpeakTheTruth]

All life can be controled or manipulated in one for or another you claim that because a Geth could be reprogramed that they are just toold but what about Indoctination? Are we to say that because organic life can have its mind controled by the Reapers that all organic life is simply a tool? We are all machines rather orgainic or machanical if you cross a few wires in the Geth or any organic you'd find that they'd be different from who they were before

[Moiaussi]

Eldareus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I would not, for example, choose receiving a banana over an orange every time. I would alternate the two, depending on mood at the time and what my last choices were.

That may be true for you but is that true for everyone? Perhaps my bio-chemisty has an allergic response to bananas and I can only consume oranges.

Therefore how can you measure the concept of freewill accurately where every individual in a given population is unique in their bio-chemical makup. Even our closest  genetic clones aka paternal twins have enough bio-chemical differences to show that each twin is their own unique individual and therefore could react differently to a constant stimulus. Throw in socio-ecocomic enviroments, belief systems, and the color blue and you have almost infinite possiblities to account for. 


Unlike the Geth, each orangic individual is unique onto themselves. The Geth are product of 1's and 0's and can be reprogrammed like any other machine therefore, to me, this adds weight to Admiral Xen extreme and controvisial arguement that the Geth are still tools. 

Based on that theory though, how do you explain the fact that the Geth are not all identical in their conclusions? The implication is that there are quantum differences.

[Slayer299]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, the quarians attempted genocide out of fear, which is a marginally better reason than, say, hatred. But the fear wasn't well-reasoned.

When have you ever heard of fear being "well-reasoned"? Acting out of fear means you aren't taking time to carefully think about what you're going to do. The Quarians were afraid of the entire Geth series robots becoming sentient as opposed to just a few, unfortunately for them, that act was wrong and they paid an insanely high price.

[Slayer299]

Moiaussi wrote...

Slayer299 wrote...

Xillzhra, what does the Codex prove, that the Quarians struck first in fear that they could potentially soon have an entire race of sentient, homicidal machines on their hands? Well we know the answer to that one. But in-game my shep isn't reading the Codex

Actually I got the impression that the Codex represented what Shepard learns along the way, his 'library computer' as it were.

Some of it, yes, but look at the Codex entry of the Reapers, Protheans or even the Blue Suns. Not exactly what our Shep knows to be the truth is it?

[Hulk Hsieh]

It will be depending on what Xen has now.

Tali's father has been doing it at least for years, but he failed because he wanted to make it quick.

Unless Xen has better progress than him, I don't see how her solution will work before the Reapers come.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Eldareus wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

I would not, for example, choose receiving a banana over an orange every time. I would alternate the two, depending on mood at the time and what my last choices were.

That may be true for you but is that true for everyone? Perhaps my bio-chemisty has an allergic response to bananas and I can only consume oranges.

Therefore how can you measure the concept of freewill accurately where every individual in a given population is unique in their bio-chemical makup. Even our closest  genetic clones aka paternal twins have enough bio-chemical differences to show that each twin is their own unique individual and therefore could react differently to a constant stimulus. Throw in socio-ecocomic enviroments, belief systems, and the color blue and you have almost infinite possiblities to account for. 


Unlike the Geth, each orangic individual is unique onto themselves. The Geth are product of 1's and 0's and can be reprogrammed like any other machine therefore, to me, this adds weight to Admiral Xen extreme and controvisial arguement that the Geth are still tools. 

Based on that theory though, how do you explain the fact that the Geth are not all identical in their conclusions? The implication is that there are quantum differences.

Quantum? I don't know about that: Geth programs, after all, can effectively be stored, copied, and emailed around.

But why assume two different Geth gestalts, with different programs and different circumstances, should come to the exact same conclusion? A calculator and a search engine give two different outputs to a entry of 2*2=, but both remain predictable programs. Predictability does not entail uniformity.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Quantum? I don't know about that: Geth programs, after all, can effectively be stored, copied, and emailed around.

But why assume two different Geth gestalts, with different programs and different circumstances, should come to the exact same conclusion? A calculator and a search engine give two different outputs to a entry of 2*2=, but both remain predictable programs. Predictability does not entail uniformity.

I'll bet you think that bugs in commercial software are completely inexcusable too. AI software is self re-programming by definiton (learning is considered among the defining qualities of AI). Quantum differences would occur in the nature of that reprogramming, in transmissions of data, at the processing level on any given platform, etc, etc, etc. Contrary to some posters, these aren't toasters. They are vastly more complex.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:23 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Quantum? I don't know about that: Geth programs, after all, can effectively be stored, copied, and emailed around.

But why assume two different Geth gestalts, with different programs and different circumstances, should come to the exact same conclusion? A calculator and a search engine give two different outputs to a entry of 2*2=, but both remain predictable programs. Predictability does not entail uniformity.

I'll bet you think that bugs in commercial software are completely inexcusable too.

And you like bugs in your products? Bugs, by the definition, are undersirable problems.

AI software is self re-programming by definiton (learning is considered among the defining qualities of AI). Quantum differences would occur in the nature of that reprogramming, in transmissions of data, at the processing level on any given platform, etc, etc, etc. Contrary to some posters, these aren't toasters. They are vastly more complex.

If it learns by predictable, standardized formulas and procedures, it's simply artificial, not necessarily intelligent.

Quantum isn't some adjective to be thrown around as if magically handwaves anythingthing away. Quantum isn't pure random, or else it wouldn't be useful as a means of storing data and computing. Quantum computing is simply a way of storing and processing certain forms of data much faster, but not in a way that can't already be done by conventional computing.

For all your randomness you might as well subscribe it to error, and then call any imperfect transmission as a sign of intelligence.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:46 .

[Angmir]

As my main all Paragon male Character I fund myself torn apart only
once, whether to follow Paragon option, This time was with whole
"Quarian going to war with Geth" thread in game. Needless to say my
Shepherd is head over heels in love with Tali, and all Quarian matters
are greatly important to me.
I'd love to secure my beloved a bright
future on her's ancestrial planet, though I knew that retaking Rannoch
may prove to be to much for week Quarian Military. This single choise
whether go to war or not, made me more puzzled than any other choise in
the game.
All in all i decided to side for the war. This was the
only pure Renegade choise in my playthrough. Even more later in the game
I chose to destroy Heretic Geth rather than let them bolster Geth
numbers even more, and sided with Tali in her conflict with Legion. I
hope this choises will give the Quarians bigger chance of success in
upcoming conflict.
How do you think about it ?? Would game developer
give the Quarian a chance of winning the war or is it a choise between,
peace and cooperation against Reapers, and extinction of both races.
I
am all very conserned about the outcome of that decision. I pray that
ME3 would give a lot of thought to this matter, and more thant just this
2 possible solutions.


PS.I pasted this post srom separate thread as a result to maderators request. And I didn't like to waste time typing this anew so pardon it is not all fitting in this thread, though I belive it to be close.

[Eldareus]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

All life can be controled or manipulated in one for or another you claim that because a Geth could be reprogramed that they are just toold but what about Indoctination? Are we to say that because organic life can have its mind controled by the Reapers that all organic life is simply a tool? We are all machines rather orgainic or machanical if you cross a few wires in the Geth or any organic you'd find that they'd be different from who they were before

That's actually a pretty good argument and the indoctination would be similiar to heretic virus in that it rehaped the choices of a conscience being.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And you like bugs in your products? Bugs, by the definition, are undersirable problems.

There are many things in life that are not desireable. That does not make it possible to eliminate them all. Bugs occur because testing every possible situation and outcome is essentially impossible, especially since some of the situations are themselves not replicatable.

If it learns by predictable, standardized formulas and procedures, it's simply artificial, not necessarily intelligent.

Quantum isn't some adjective to be thrown around as if magically handwaves anythingthing away. Quantum isn't pure random, or else it wouldn't be useful as a means of storing data and computing. Quantum computing is simply a way of storing and processing certain forms of data much faster, but not in a way that can't already be done by conventional computing.

For all your randomness you might as well subscribe it to error, and then call any imperfect transmission as a sign of intelligence.

Where is your proof that the Geth learn by predictable anything? The Quarians had their 'equations', yet didn't predict their rise, nor their fighting off the destruct codes. Noone predicted their stopping at the veil. Noone predicted their leaving the veil. Noone predicted the split with the Heretics. Noone predicted their preserving the Quarian worlds. Noone predicted their making a diplomatic move (via Legion). Need I go on?

And how is human learning completely 'unpredictable?" We have teaching techniques and know a lot more about how humans learn, especially in the younger years, than we once did. A great portion of AI research involves studying human thought processes and developing ways to duplicate them. That wouldn't be possible if human thought processes were not in any way predictable. It is theorized that it is not so much that humans don't have algorithms, but that those algorithms are simply not currently known.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 19 septembre 2010 - 10:52 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And you like bugs in your products? Bugs, by the definition, are undersirable problems.

There are many things in life that are not desireable. That does not make it possible to eliminate them all. Bugs occur because testing every possible situation and outcome is essentially impossible, especially since some of the situations are themselves not replicatable.

I really don't know what your point is on this, or what it was before. I don't think bugs are good: it may be impossible to get rid of them all, but that doesn't mean I like them. What do bugs have to do with sentient vs. non-sentient creatures?

Where is your proof that the Geth learn by predictable anything?

The fact they began and individually exist as basic VI, and that's what VI are: basic computer programs, written code, demonstrates that on some level, that's just what they do. Anything more than that remains to be proven otherwise.

And, as I stress over and over again, I am not comitting that the Geth aren't sapient. I am committing that many things people believe as proof do have non-sapient explanations that can be just as valid.

The Quarians had their 'equations', yet didn't predict their rise, nor their fighting off the destruct codes. Noone predicted their stopping at the veil. Noone predicted their leaving the veil. Noone predicted the split with the Heretics. Noone predicted their preserving the Quarian worlds. Noone predicted their making a diplomatic move (via Legion). Need I go on?

Not really, because you miss the point. Deliberately, I suspect.

That something isn't predicted doesn't mean it can't be. The Quarians didn't predict the Geth growing so fast because they overlooked a key variable: the geth network linkage. Of course when an important attribute is missed models are off. A lack of information is simply that, not proof of impossibility.

And how is human learning completely 'unpredictable?" We have teaching techniques and know a lot more about how humans learn, especially in the younger years, than we once did. A great portion of AI research involves studying human thought processes and developing ways to duplicate them. That wouldn't be possible if human thought processes were not in any way predictable. It is theorized that it is not so much that humans don't have algorithms, but that those algorithms are simply not currently known.

Where did completely come into play? Infact, where did I claim human learning was unpredictable? The most unpredictability I believe connecting with humanity was free will, not learning, and learning can be programmed in non-sapient ways.

While we have models (so many, many models, often conflicting) on how the brain works, to date no one really knows that much about it. We have vague trial-and-error concepts of what works and what doesn't, but actual understanding of how the brain does things remains very sparse. People can be told the same things but take different lessons from it, and make entirely different conclusions and actions based off of it. Just like we are doing now. We can't even prove/disprove the Id/Ego/Superego model, let alone anything resembling 'real' AI. We can model behavior and processes as much as we want, but we really don't understand them and the consensus changes every ten to twenty years regardless.

VI, however, aren't like that. We know we know how they work, because we defined it in the code written for them. And in the case of the geth, the Geth wrote how they work, and how they would work upon eachother. That's a predictable system, not simply an abstract model.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 septembre 2010 - 11:52 .