12 réponses à ce sujet

[Lellandra]

Dragon Age 2 forums get so much love from the writers! They are always posting here, having fun with the community and sharing the love! 

Now over at ME forums, I don't think I've ever seen a Drew K. post or a Marc Walters! Are they all too important to mix up with the plebe? It's just Chris and Stanley cracking the whip and laying down the law!

Can David, Mary, John transfer temporarily to ME to cheer that forum some?

[Mary Kirby]

I saw this topic, and for a moment I thought you were going to try to pit the DA writers against the ME writing team in some sort of writery-battle-to-the-death. That would be terrifying. Patrick Weekes is like Batman, only with more sarcasm. And I'm pretty sure I once saw Chris Hepler rob a bank and save a puppy at the same time. Not to mention, Luke has worked on both Dragon Age and Mass Effect, so does he have to fight himself in the final battle?

[David Gaider]

Krytheos wrote...
But in all seriousness, I would like the ME writers to just discuss things with us more. Lore things and all that? Yeah, the ME forums don't get that sometimes as good or as extensively as the DA: forums do on a fairly decently regular basis.

In all seriousness, us developer folk have varying tolerances for the forums. Some just like to watch but are hesitant to interact, some are just too busy, some are wary about what it's "safe" to talk about and so err on the side of caution... and some think it's crazy-making like having five loud people piled into the back seat of your car with each one shouting different directions while simultaneously criticizing your driving. And then a sixth calls you on your cellphone just to troll you.

It's all completely voluntary on our part whether we come here and interact or not-- all of us on DA2 who do it do so on our own time (and recognizance). If there's more of us who do it it's probably because we talk about it more among ourselves. It's just a project culture thing, I think (which is totally a real thing, believe it or not), and I would never think of suggesting to them that they should dive into the Crazy Pool more often... any more than I'd want them to suggest we should dive into it less.

Which, quite frankly, is the far more sensible course of action.

[David Gaider]

WilliamShatner wrote...
Fans rightfully criticised ME2's poor story, continuity, lack of respect for previous characters, and terrible implementation of much hyped consequences of choices carrying over from Mass Effect and the writers ran to the hills to drink champagne with "professional" critics.

Hey, if enough DA fans get themselves worked up into a self-entitled frenzy after DA2 comes out, such that they make it extremely unpleasant for us to be anywhere near these forums, expect us to do the same.

DaringMoosejaw wrote...
Why wouldn't the writers come by and talk to rays of sunshine and politesse like this fellow?

Indeed. There's a lot of people who seem to think that because they're right it shouldn't matter how much of an ass they're acting like. If someone walked up to me on the street and started yelling in my face, with little bits of spittle flying out of their mouths, I doubt I'd want to hang around and chat with them either. I don't care how "right" they think they are.

Modifié par David Gaider, 19 septembre 2010 - 06:23 .

[David Gaider]

WilliamShatner wrote...
If the writers and makers of the game can take praise from me calling Mass Effect the best game I have ever played then they can equally take criticism when I call ME2 the most disappointing and soul-crushing sequel since Alien 3.

You can't take one and leave the other.

Actually, we can. We'll talk to whomever we feel like talking to, and are under no obligation to chime in on discussions that are unpleasant or even overly negative. I do it sometimes, but most of the people at work think I'm crazy... and to be honest most of the times I do it I feel like I'm talking to a wall anyhow. Or I become upset enough that it would probably have been better for me to just walk away.

Criticism is great, if it can be voiced in a way that is still reasonable and leaves room for some discussion. If there's no room for discussion, however, then don't expect any from us. If you're just here to spout your opinions, you have every right to do so-- but you're not entitled to interaction with a developer unless you're nice.

In other words: don't be a freak. We don't talk to freaks unless they're at the very least entertaining.

[David Gaider]

iakus wrote...
I'd find that unlikely in this case...um....well...Let me change that to "less likely".  DA2  is clearly going to have a new character, new story, new storytelling method.  And everyone is all up front about it.  Anyone who's going to freak out about the changes probably already has.  ME 2 was ostensibly part two of a trilogy featuring the same character continuing through a multipart story.  Yeah, some of us got a litttle steamed about how that turned out .

But I, of course am the epitome of politeness

Heh. And naivete, perhaps. Even those who have "accepted" the changes probably have wildly varying preconceptions about what they think DA2 is or should be. If any of those aren't met, and DA2 isn't what they think it should have been-- watch out! Fan rage that burns brighter than the heat of a thousand suns!

Which is fine. That's what the forums are here for. We're not talking about whether people can't come to these forums and complain. We're talking about whether or not someone can/should expect to also have developers coming and interacting with them on a personal basis.

[David Gaider]

Meltemph wrote...
But I guess just removing the posts wouldn't accomplish much either though, huh?

More likely counter-productive, as opposed to not accomplishing much.

WilliamShatner wrote...
Well Mr. Gaider after ME2 was
released I (and many others) wrote many polite, and in-depth posts about
my concerns and criticisms about the game - - - but months of talking
to a brick wall becomes kind of boring and soul breaking, so I apologize
if I don't have the spirit to continue putting vast amounts of efforts
into my criticism anymore.

Who were you writing those in-depth posts for? We developers only have time to read a handful of posts on the forums-- and of those we have time to read, we only get a chance to respond to a few. If you wrote it, it may have been read... if not by us than by your fellow posters. If the lack of a personal response from a developer to your posts is something you find boring and soul-breaking, then you probably shouldn't do it.

This is a forum to speak to the rest of the fans of a game and express concerns that the developers might read... and, if you're lucky, actually interact with them from time to time. If you consider that "luck". This is not the "consult with the developers and get a personal response regarding your concerns" forum. Nor is it the "contribute to the design of the game committee" forum. I don't mean to belittle anyone's concerns in anyway, but if you feel thoughtful discussion is wasted unless a developer reads, responds and/or acts on it then your expectations regarding what these forums are for are a bit out of whack.

Modifié par David Gaider, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:23 .

[David Gaider]

WilliamShatner wrote...
I don't expect writers to respond to me personally but considering a large portion of the community also feel the same/similarly I would expect a general response.  They did for Mass Effect and are doing so for Dragon Age and DA2.

Before ME2 was released and people were voicing their concerns over the revealed information the writers said trust us and judge us after you've played the game.  Well we played the game 9 months ago now, wrote countless novels worth on these forums about it and there has been not a peep from the writers.  It seems fine and dandy to post when you want to sell the game to people, but once it comes out and fans have been very disappointed by it then it's time to disappear.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, huh?

So we're expected to show up and engage in a discussion with people who demand either an apology or an accounting and won't accept the reasons we give anyhow? Or be accused of vanishing if we instead read the posts but don't participate and engage the angry fans-- or instead only respond to discussions that are positive or ones we feel we can contribute to?

Yeah. That's the sort of attitude that makes me want to just stop looking at the forums altogether. Which I think I'm going to do now, since it's Sunday and I'm at home and probably have better things to do anyhow.

Have fun!

Modifié par David Gaider, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:35 .

[David Gaider]

ankuu wrote...
I appreciate what the DA writers share with us and i do kinda feel bad that the ME writers don't really talk to us fans. I would like to know more about the lore but i won't go and yell at them "Come here you--!"

Glad you appreciate it-- and I do try to respond to the more positive posts more than the other kind, but it's hard not to become engaged sometimes even if it's not really healthy. We who work on the game feel invested in what we create even more than the fans do (that's not meant as a slight, I think that should go without saying really) so that's why we come and read even if not all of us post.

I've had my coffee now, and my afternoon workout-- so it's easier to be positive. Sorry if I got snippy earlier.

[David Gaider]

zahra wrote...
*stomps off in a rage*

Haters gonna hate. 

[David Gaider]

Dave of Canada wrote...
Only on these forums and they are a small vocal group. Anybody who shows being amused or pleased with the product is teared down and ripped apart by the rabid angry fan.

To be honest, my impression is that you'll get a bit of that on both sides. The very negative fans are particularly vicious, but you'll also get a bit of a gangpile by fans every time someone expresses a negative opinion that isn't widely shared by others-- politely expressed or not.

The strange thing about the forums is that there appears to be a bit of a panic when anyone expresses an opinion that others don't like, as if BioWare will be unable to distinguish it from the truth or otherwise weigh its merits on our own unless that opinion is immediately and vociferously discounted. Truth is, our critical evaluation skills aren't as bad as you might think-- we tend to know when an opinion is widely held or (more commonly) just the same five people driving up the post count, and even when it is widely held we still have to weigh it against the fact that such opinions come without a knowledge of the issues we face internally. There really is no need for the panic, and sometimes it's a bit disheartening to watch when it ensues.

Modifié par David Gaider, 20 septembre 2010 - 03:37 .

[John Epler]

cinderburster wrote...

I don't really understand the fans that get so upset about changes. I mean, I was disappointed when my favorite character didn't get so much as a cameo in Awakening or the more recent DLC, but I didn't come to these forums and spew bile at the developers. Maybe it's having a relative in the gaming industry and getting to hear from him just how difficult and constraining it can be to keep things within budget and still produce something enjoyable to play? Do people just forget that video games cost money and time to create?

I think that Bioware has a lot of fantastic writers, artists, and programmers working for them, and these people should get the credit they deserve.

If you're going to put unrealistic expectations on them, go out and make your own damn game.

I think, to a degree, this comes about as a result of not really being able to share the numbers and time constraints of the development process. There's a reason the phrase 'it can't be that hard' comes up a lot - and I'm optimistic (or perhaps naive) enough to believe that this isn't due to callousness on the part of our fans, but rather just a lack of understanding of exactly what goes into creating a game.

It's easy to say 'just write a conversation for this and that!' and imagine it only takes an hour or so, but when you're actually in the midst of the process, you realize that for every conversation, there are at least five people who get involved at some point in the process (or more, if you require custom assets), each of whom will be spending at the very least 10-12 hours (and that's for a very small conversation).

And note that when I say 'lack of understanding', I'm by no means saying that's a fault on the part of the fans. Why would you know exactly how long it takes to create a piece of content if it's not something you need to concern yourself with, either professionally or as a hobbyist? I couldn't tell you how long it takes to resurface a kilometer of road, for example, or complete the electrical work in the living room of a new house. We all have areas in which we are more or less knowledgeable. This just happens to be one that concerns many people on these forums in regards to their leisure time. But even then, I couldn't tell you how long it takes to film an episode of a TV show. 

Where am I going with this? I don't actually know I'd like to say 'just trust us' - but I understand that for many people, this just doesn't fly. And that's fine! You don't need to trust us - you're allowed to exercise skepticism. At the same time, however - these forums are, as David has said, an optional part of our jobs. If you're making posts for the sole reason of communicating a message to a developer, it should be noted that there's no guarantee that a developer will read it. And tone does matter - I love hearing constructive criticism. I think that's the best way to improve at my job. But there's a difference between constructive criticism and an excuse to spew vitriol.

[Stanley Woo]

Not really Dragon age 2 related. Please use our Off-Topic forum. Thank you.



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