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[Dean_the_Young]

The title, of course, referring to Loghain's unique equipment item, a fanciful map of border expansions and possibly foolhardy ambitions.  Appropriate, given that this thread is meant as a more specific avenue of the current Loghain thread topic (future ambitions of Ferelden).

So... talk about it. What do you think the Blight means for Ferelden? How do you think the King and/or Queen will, or should, handle foreign relations after the nation has been wracked by the Blight? Did you in-game choices strengthen, or weaken, Ferelden's ability to defend itself from Orlesians, or idea to expand? How will your Warden, whoever it is, try to shape Ferelden's influence and actions, if at all? 

[Herr Uhl]

Ferelden has no chance of expanding (by itself, if it joins a coalition , then maybe), especially after the blight. The reason that the blight came in Ferelden is that it *is* the weakest nation in Thedas, martially.

[Dean_the_Young]

On the other hand, choices you make can change Ferelden's potential. Saving the Anvil of the Void, for example: Branka doesn't just make Golems for the dwarves, after all. And the very interesting possibility of werewolf warfare, a possible double-win mechanic if they are brought into Ferelden's usage in the long-term.



Just because the Blight might have chosen Ferelden because it looked the weakest region doesn't mean that it is weak, or that it must stay so. Even in the midst of a Civil War and many other disasters Ferelden still beat the Archdemon's hoardes solely on its own, a first in history. Was Ferelden the weakest, or only seen as the weakest? I certainly doubt that Ferelden is, say, weaker than individual Free Marches city-states.

[Obadiah]

Aside from the Qunari, are Ferelden's neighbors looking for opportunities to conquer other lands? Are Freleden's leaders interested in the same?

While we're talking about maps and borders, is there a map of Ferelden with a scale attached to it?

Modifié par Obadiah, 19 septembre 2010 - 01:40 .

[Herr Uhl]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

On the other hand, choices you make can change Ferelden's potential. Saving the Anvil of the Void, for example: Branka doesn't just make Golems for the dwarves, after all. And the very interesting possibility of werewolf warfare, a possible double-win mechanic if they are brought into Ferelden's usage in the long-term.

Just because the Blight might have chosen Ferelden because it looked the weakest region doesn't mean that it is weak, or that it must stay so. Even in the midst of a Civil War and many other disasters Ferelden still beat the Archdemon's hoardes solely on its own, a first in history. Was Ferelden the weakest, or only seen as the weakest? I certainly doubt that Ferelden is, say, weaker than individual Free Marches city-states.

Why should Orzammar care what happens to the lands above, they have their own problems to take care of. Taking sides in a battle on the top might turn the chantry against them, and the lyrium trade is important to them.

Some individual states perhaps. The point is that your warden is the überpwnagesauce. Kill the arch and the blight ends. Same thing would not happen when attacking a country.

[Herr Uhl]

Obadiah wrote...

While we're talking about maps and borders, is there a map of Ferelden with a scale attached to it?

Ferelden is about as large England. Thedas is roughly the size of Europe.



There be your map.

David Gaider wrote...

Burdokva wrote...
approximately how large is the known part of Thedas (I remember Alistair said that Weisshaupt was "over a thousand miles away")?

I already said you could compare Ferelden to England in size. Thedas is a bit smaller than Europe.

Khal Sharok seems to be very far away from Orzammar, so it makes me wonder, how far into the Deep Roads we venture in Origins? Looking at the map I have no problem believing that the Anvil of the Void or some of the far-off thaigs might be under the Dales?

It's possible they were under the Dales, yes. I wouldn't say it went much further than that.

twincast wrote...
Given the name; is Qundalon Qunari territory? If so, why has there been no mention of Qunari-Ander conflict IIRC? Come to think about it, why no Qunari-Antivan conflict? In recent times that is.

Qundalon is Qunari, yes. As for why there's no mention, we simply don't talk about every single thing in the game, especially when it's unrelated to the plot at hand. There are elf-blooded humans, for instance, but do we mention that in the game. Does that mean they don't exist in the world? Certainly not. They are spears and horses, but you don't see them in the game. Does that mean they don't exist in the world? Certainly not.

That and there is no current conflict with the Anders since the end of the last Exalted March. Qundalon is not part of Anders territory -- it's a Qunari colony.

And are the white spots in the sea near Val Royeaux remnants of a former super-bridge, an Imperial Highway shortcut?

Correct.

Burnheart wrote...
I don't see the shining sea marked on that map. In the ending it says that darkspawn warbands cross the shining sea through the deep roads.

Interesting. A mistake, I imagine. Probably meant the Waking Sea... we do get the occasional errors creeping into the Codex and such over the years. That's what you get when you change the map and the plot and so forth a dozen times over six years. 

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 19 septembre 2010 - 01:50 .

[Obadiah]

Thanks for that. For such a detailed game the designers sure are coy on the map scale. I mean, what are we supposed to do? Take the kilometers square of England (or the UK?) and then just sort of shape that into Ferelden, and use that to figure out the scale? Or just take the width of both?

[Herr Uhl]

Well, maps weren't very precise in medieval times. The codexes are supposed to be written by scholars in the world, I'd suspect the same goes for the maps. As far as that goes, that map is incredibly detailed.

[Costin_Razvan]

In my opinion the distance between Redcliff and Denerim is about 460 miles. That's what I base it upon.



As for my plan: Create a political and military Alliance between Dwarves/Dalish/Fereldan to bring war to the Darkspawn in reclaiming the Deep Roads. Eventually start a war against Orlais after killing Eamon, Isolde, Connor and Teagan and bringing my foot down on the nobility.

[Giggles_Manically]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

In my opinion the distance between Redcliff and Denerim is about 460 miles. That's what I base it upon.

As for my plan: Create a political and military Alliance between Dwarves/Dalish/Fereldan to bring war to the Darkspawn in reclaiming the Deep Roads. Eventually start a war against Orlais after killing Eamon, Isolde, Connor and Teagan and bringing my foot down on the nobility.

Except that the Dalish may not want to go to war or form many alliances while they are rebuilding a new home, or want to go to war in what they see as a purely human war. Also if you have the werewolves instead they run off into the woods and no one can find them in the epilouge.

The Dwarves under Harrowmont wont help, under Bhelen why would they risk annoying the more powerful nation they border on? He may side with Ferelden, but than again its not like anyone can force things on him. Maybe you can extract golems from Branka instead.

Also if you try and use an Iron fist on the Bannorn they fight very hard against you, and even Loghain took a very long time to bring them under his sway and it killed thousands of his men to do it.

[Brockololly]

I think the future map of Ferelden or Thedas for that matter will be largely impacted by whatever "change" Morrigan was talking about at the end of Witch Hunt and the whole "Chantry collapsing" and "world on the brink of war" thing in DA2.

[Dean_the_Young]

The circumstances under which the Werewolves run off, and how long they will remain unfindable, is more than open-ended enough for roleplay purposes. My Cousland, for example, went out to the Dalish camp and warned the werewolves to run away and learn to control themselves, and that he would make the Brescellian forest a preserve for them if they promised to come to the aid of Ferelden whenever it was attacked. The Werewolf fleeing was by the direction of the King himself.



The option doesn't exist in-game, but for King-Consort Cousland it seems reasonable enough to be played as that. The Brescellian forest remains largely untouched, deemed 'too dangerous' for settlements (and a prime area for magical research).

[Costin_Razvan]

Except that the Dalish may not want to go to war or form many alliances while they are rebuilding a new home, or want to go to war in what they see as a purely human war. Also if you have the werewolves instead they run off into the woods and no one can find them in the epilouge.

The condition for them getting Ostagar in the first place would be to join the alliance I am creating. If they refuse they can take a hike, the land is mine to give or take back and they have no claim to it whatsoever.



Also, the elves would surely know that if Fereldan falls then they will lose their land even if they get it.

under Bhelen why would they risk annoying the more powerful nation they border on? He may side with Ferelden, but than again its not like anyone can force things on him. Maybe you can extract golems from Branka instead.

If Bhelen thinks the war can be won, then he would very likely join. The military alliance he would enter would far outweigh the loss of the Lyrium Trade to the Chantry ( assuming it even comes to that mind you ). Bhelen knows the importance his city has for the Chantry, so he can stress things quite a bit. Only Dwarves can refine Lyrium, and the Chantry surely knows this.



He is in a strong position, and he knows it. And joining an Alliance, whose ultimate goal would be to crush the Darkspawn mind you, though defeating Orlais is something that must be done to ensure their future, is something that would be beneficial to him.

Also if you try and use an Iron fist on the Bannorn they fight very hard against you, and even Loghain took a very long time to bring them under his sway and it killed thousands of his men to do it.

Loghain crushed their forces, and what else could they hope to bring against me? I would also really like to see who would rise up once I present Cailan's letters to the Landsmeet and demand Eamon's execution. Circumstantial evidence is still evidence and it would be enough to be able to sway the Landsmeet into accepting your ruling.

[Obadiah]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Well, maps weren't very precise in medieval times. The codexes are supposed to be written by scholars in the world, I'd suspect the same goes for the maps. As far as that goes, that map is incredibly detailed.

Every map, even crappy ones, has a scale assigned to it - even if the map is completely wrong, because a map is largely useless without it. The map reader would at least want to know that the map-maker thought the distances were. The missing scale on these maps is conspicuous.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Using Dalish and Dwarven heathens to fight your war is a sure recipe for exalted marches. Assuming they are stupid enough to actually go through with this and invade a country they have no business and interest in invading. Why would Bhelen want to lose a rich trading partner and settle only with a poor Ferelden that instead of improving its economy is busy fighting useless wars, is beyond me.

[Bruddajakka]

Or it could just be some pipe dream Loghain was working on in his spare time seeing as how it was his map.

[Costin_Razvan]

Why would Bhelen want to lose a rich trading partner and settle only with a poor Ferelden that instead of improving its economy is busy fighting useless wars, is beyond me.

Above all else, Bhelen needs military support not a stronger economy. The alliance is mutually beneficial as my ultimate goal is to kill the Darkspawn off. Commit genocide on them, something that you cannot agree upon.



You think like a politician, I think like a General. You might be content to just ignoring the Darkspawn until the next two Blights come around and then let the Dwarves to deal with them while you send some military support to them, and maybe hope the Architect keeps the in check, but I do not.



You make long term plans for improving Fereldan's future, and I make plans that will either bear fruit or fail while my Warden lives. If history has taught us anything is that even the best long-term plans fail.



For me that means crushing Orlais or getting crushed. War is not without risk but I perfectly willing to do whatever it takes to win that war.



The Elves resent Orlais and the Chantry. Do you really believe they would NOT want to reconquer the Dales? Cause that is what I am offering them: A chance to reconquer their long lost Kingdom, a chance to actually be able to revive their nation. I find it very unlikely that they would not take it.



Exalted Marches? If the Chantry believes it can cow me then it has another thing coming. I will wage war against their Circles and Templars, I will turn the Apostate Mages against them as I am quite certain many would jump at the chance for Freedom from the Chantry in return for joining my cause.



Then I will ask Nevarra for aid, a country which hates Orlais just as much as Fereldan does. I would be surprised if they refused to ally against their mortal enemy.



Does my plan carry risks? Certainly, heavy ones at that. If it fails ( and it can most certainly fail ) then Fereldan, Orzammar will be subjugated, but if it succeeds then I crush Orlais and the Chantry. I am perfectly willing to take those risks that it might.



"Nothing is certain." Elrond.

[Herr Uhl]

Obadiah wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Well, maps weren't very precise in medieval times. The codexes are supposed to be written by scholars in the world, I'd suspect the same goes for the maps. As far as that goes, that map is incredibly detailed.

Every map, even crappy ones, has a scale assigned to it - even if the map is completely wrong, because a map is largely useless without it. The map reader would at least want to know that the map-maker thought the distances were. The missing scale on these maps is conspicuous.

There is a scale of sorts at the edges, the black and white things. What distance they are, I don't know.

[Herr Uhl]

Costin, what would you gain by waging war on a much larger country, even with the dwarves and elves at your side, when all you do is to kill their soldiers. It isn't even certain that the populace wont lead revolts against you even when conquered. The only way you can gain anything by that is in the long run.



In short, why invade Orlais?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Above all else, Bhelen needs military support not a stronger economy. The alliance is mutually beneficial as my ultimate goal is to kill the Darkspawn off. Commit genocide on them, something that you cannot agree upon.

Bhelen needs as much economic support to bolster his reforms and by implication secure his throne. Him throwing dwarves to die in a pointless war is not only going to alienate warrior and noble houses, but lose very important trading partners, thus weakening his alliance with merchants.

Bhelen is a politician and he certainly doesn't think like a general.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
You think like a politician, I think like a General. You might be content to just ignoring the Darkspawn until the next two Blights come around and then let the Dwarves to deal with them while you send some military support to them, and maybe hope the Architect keeps the in check, but I do not.

Hence why I think generals have no business in running nations really.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
You make long term plans for improving Fereldan's future, and I make plans that will either bear fruit or fail while my Warden lives. If history has taught us anything is that even the best long-term plans fail.

If one cannot react and adapt, sure. But if I can help it, I am adamant on avoiding a win or lose everything gambit, especially when it's not clear what we woulde win anyhow. A military victory that cannot act as a foundation for future development is useless to me.  Even more so when it will likely cause economic collapse.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
For me that means crushing Orlais or getting crushed. War is not without risk but I perfectly willing to do whatever it takes to win that war.

War is nothing but a political tool. And politics doesn't work like that.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
The Elves resent Orlais and the Chantry. Do you really believe they would NOT want to reconquer the Dales? Cause that is what I am offering them: A chance to reconquer their long lost Kingdom, a chance to actually be able to revive their nation. I find it very unlikely that they would not take it.

Well seeing how they've already allied with humans and they got crushed by them, why do you think they are going to trust humans again?
Do they even have the numbers needed to revive their nation and actually maintain it?
Why would they even think Ferelden is strong enough to help them or even care when the **** hits the fan (exalted marches).

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Exalted Marches? If the Chantry believes it can cow me then it has another thing coming. I will wage war against their Circles and Templars, I will turn the Apostate Mages against them as I am quite certain many would jump at the chance for Freedom from the Chantry in return for joining my cause.

Because you think you can fend off all Andrastrian nations right?
That's not even mentioning the amount of dissent you would be creating domestically. So civ8il war on top of all that. 

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Then I will ask Nevarra for aid, a country which hates Orlais just as much as Fereldan does. I would be surprised if they refused to ally against their mortal enemy.

Neverra allied with Orlais to fight the Dalish and the Qunari. Think again. They might hate Orlais, but they will answer the call for exalted marches.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Does my plan carry risks? Certainly, heavy ones at that. If it fails ( and it can most certainly fail ) then Fereldan, Orzammar will be subjugated, but if it succeeds then I crush Orlais and the Chantry. I am perfectly willing to take those risks that it might.

"Nothing is certain." Elrond.

Yes, just like me running in the street doesn't have to cause my death, that doesn't mean I do it.
Besides, who would you be in Ferelden anyways? Anora's Consort? You think a consort can do all this and Anora actually agree to that?
Or do you plan on alienating or assassinating her? Because that would be perfect for even more internal strife. Exactly what we need.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 septembre 2010 - 05:16 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
In short, why invade Orlais?

What really confuses me is how one can convince allies that invading Orlais is useful to fighting the darkspawn.
Eh.

[Costin_Razvan]

Bhelen needs as much economic support to bolster his reforms and by implication secure his throne. Him throwing dwarves to die in a pointless war is not only going to alienate warrior and noble houses, but lose very important trading partners, thus weakening his alliance with merchants.



Bhelen is a politician and he certainly doesn't think like a general.

I disagree on the pointless war, and also there are other nations to the Dwarves have trade relations with. Orlais might be the strongest nation, but it is not so strong as to control trade in Thedas. Antiva does that.

Hence why I think generals have no business in running nations really.

Ignoring the Darkspawn is downright foolish. You believe you can, I beg to differ. My reasoning for starting a war with Orlais has everything to do with the fact that I do not believe for a second that Celene would NOT start one herself if Fereldan and Orzammar enter in a strong military alliance to destroy the Darkspawn.



I would rather strike first then wait for her to make her move. She clearly has plans for Fereldan.

If one cannot react and adapt, sure. But if I can help it, I am adamant on avoiding a win or lose everything gambit.

And once your Warden dies there is no certainty that your plans will not fall apart as they did for many other leaders throughout history. That is a fact.

War is nothing but a political tool. And politics doesn't work like that.

Obviously so. In this situation I believe diplomacy cannot prevail. It is not a question if a war will be sparked between Orlais and Fereldan eventually. It is a question of when and how.

Well seeing how they've already allied with humans and they got crushed by them, why do you think they are going to trust humans again?

Do they even have the numbers needed to revive their nation and actually maintain it?

Why would they even think Ferelden is strong ernough to help them or even care when the **** hits the fan (exalted marches).

You are right in that the Dalish might not accept might deal, but I also believe they might do so. Especially for the chance of reviving the Dales. You don't care for more then Fereldan itself, I have a greater goal then that.

Because you think you can fend off all Andrastrian nations right?

That' not even mentioning the aount of dissent you would be creating domestically

There is nothing to suggest any nation other then Orlais itself joined the Exalted Marches as a country. People from other countries? Certainly. Mage Circles in their full might to deal with the Qunari, yes. A country with it's full military might? No evidence to support this.



As for dissent at home, well I have plans to deal with that ( as with Anora ). This is the same plan I am going to go in my fanfiction, and I don't want to spoil it.

[Monica21]

Obadiah wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Well, maps weren't very precise in medieval times. The codexes are supposed to be written by scholars in the world, I'd suspect the same goes for the maps. As far as that goes, that map is incredibly detailed.

Every map, even crappy ones, has a scale assigned to it - even if the map is completely wrong, because a map is largely useless without it. The map reader would at least want to know that the map-maker thought the distances were. The missing scale on these maps is conspicuous.

The developers aren't cartographers. The lack of scale in game maps or book maps isn't unusual.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I disagree on the pointless war, and also there are other nations to the Dwarves have trade relations with. Orlais might be the strongest nation, but it is not so strong as to control trade in Thedas. Antiva does that.

Antiva only controls maritim trade (we don't know that, but let's assume for the sake of argument).

Let's think for a second what products Bhelen can export. Lyrium is the most important ressource and Orlais being the heart of the Chantry is going to be the number one importer. Losing that would be foolish on his part.

Second, what else are dwarves good at? Expensive high quality smithing. Antiva has no army, so they won't be a lucrative market. Orlais and others? Definately. 

And if you start an exalted march with all Andrastrian nations fighting you, Bhelen would lose all economic partners.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Ignoring the Darkspawn is downright foolish. You believe you can, I beg to differ. My reasoning for starting a war with Orlais has everything to do with the fact that I do not believe for a second that Celene would NOT start one herself if Fereldan and Orzammar enter in a strong military alliance to destroy the Darkspawn.

I would rather strike first then wait for her to make her move. She clearly has plans for Fereldan.

Ok how does fighting darkspawn translate into invading Orlais? Makes no sense whatsoever.
Fighting the darkspawn with the dwarves is a good idea, but why expect them to fight your pointless surface war? 
You cannot expect a military alliance created to fight darkspawn, agree to fight a surface war with no relation to the darkspawn just because you ask them to.

And no, I do not think Celene plans to start a war, unless civil war breaks out in Ferelden, which is probably the outcome of your policies. Nevarra is checking Orlais. Once you give reason to Nevarra to side with Orlais, that check is gone.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
And once your Warden dies there is no certainty that your plans will not fall apart as they did for many other leaders throughout history. That is a fact.

Nor is it necessary for them to fall apart. So?
I should live in the moment and not give crap about the long term? That's not how it works.

The leaders who thought like that and failed miserably are more so than those who succeeded in shaping their nations and securing their long term properity.  Institutions and foundations can outlive their creators.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Obviously so. In this situation I believe diplomacy cannot prevail. It is not a question if a war will be sparked between Orlais and Fereldan eventually. It is a question of when and how.

As late as possible, once all problems inside of Ferelden are delt with.
Just because war can start doesn't mean we go start it when the nation is on the verge of economic collapse.

You are right in that the Dalish might not accept might deal, but I also believe they might do so. Especially for the chance of reviving the Dales. You don't care for more then Fereldan itself, I have a greater goal then that.

You are telling me that you actually give a damn about the Dalish Costin? Please lol
You are telling me that you are willing to risk everything just for their sakes?

To fight the darkspawn? What I see is you fighting against everyone except darkspawn.

There is nothing to suggest any nation other then Orlais itself joined the Exalted Marches as a country. People from other countries? Certainly. Mage Circles in their full might to deal with the Qunari, yes. A country with it's full military might? No evidence to support this.

Historical evidence. All exalted marches had several Andrastrian nations in them. The exalted Marches against the Dalish had many countries fighting alongside Orlais.
Add the fact that you want to start a mage revolution, and you give them even more reason.

Costin_Razvan wrote...
As for dissent at home, well I have plans to deal with that ( as with Anora ). This is the same plan I am going to go in my fanfiction, and I don't want to spoil it.

Sure.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 septembre 2010 - 05:44 .

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
In short, why invade Orlais?

What really confuses me is how one can convince allies that invading Orlais is useful to fighting the darkspawn.
Eh.

Uh, this. How is a plan to "crush Orlais" at all useful in defeating darkspawn? Not to mention that you can't defeat them, because you still have two Blights to go. Your Warden knows this.