209 réponses à ce sujet

[Viva la France]

I rp a napoleon like Cousland

[Costin_Razvan]

Uh, this. How is a plan to "crush Orlais" at all useful in defeating darkspawn? Not to mention that you can't defeat them, because you still have two Blights to go. Your Warden knows this.

Because as I mentioned, I find it unlikely Celene would not act if Fereldan allies Orzammar. If I am to crush the Darkspawn, then I need to make sure I can fight against them without having the threat of an Orlesian Invasion on my head.



As for the Blights, do you believe the Darkspawn will just vanish once the last Archdemon falls? No, they will remain, and become an even greater threat to the surface. There is only one way to defeat the Darkspawn: Kill them all.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Because as I mentioned, I find it unlikely Celene would not act if Fereldan allies Orzammar. If I am to crush the Darkspawn, then I need to make sure I can fight against them without having the threat of an Orlesian Invasion on my head.

Why would she start a war over this? Unles you plan to block off lyrium trade (making you the initiator of the conflict), I do not think Celene would care, at least as much as to start a war when there is Nevarra checking her in the north.

It's a good idea to fight darkspawn without having to worry about exterior enemies. What I see however is you declaring war on *potential* exterior enemies (made into real enemies only because of your aggression, otherwise they have no real reason to fight you) and wasting ressources instead of fighting the darkspawn. And expecting allies who have no business in these futile wars to help. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 septembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[Monica21]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
Because as I mentioned, I find it unlikely Celene would not act if Fereldan allies Orzammar. If I am to crush the Darkspawn, then I need to make sure I can fight against them without having the threat of an Orlesian Invasion on my head.

Doesn't Orzammar already have Ferelden, and other nations, as allies? Why do they only have to be allied with Ferelden? Orzammar has no incentive to stop trading with Orlais, so why would they?

As for the Blights, do you believe the Darkspawn will just vanish once the last Archdemon falls? No, they will remain, and become an even greater threat to the surface. There is only one way to defeat the Darkspawn: Kill them all.

No, I don't think they darkspawn will vanish once the last Blight is over, but a "plan" to charge the Deep Roads and kill every last darkspawn without even knowing where they are seems foolhardy. The dwarves couldn't hold their kingdom together and fell under the darkspawn invasion. Why do you think you can can kill them all after centuries underground?

If you have an actual plan to invade the Deep Roads, then you're far better off allying yourself with other nations to do so rather than starting wars that kill off your men and theirs.

Modifié par Monica21, 19 septembre 2010 - 06:04 .

[Costin_Razvan]

What of the Chantry Knight? What I forgot to mention was that I plan on giving the Circle freedom in Fereldan ( Just like it can happen to a mage PC at the end origins ), I do not believe the Chantry would ever accept it.



If the Chantry contemplates an Exalted March for the death of one priest in the riots in Orzammar, then I fully believe they would declare one on Fereldan for mages gaining Freedom, even more so since I believe Celene is the one who controls the Chantry.

[Costin_Razvan]

As for allies, it is not certain either way, but we shall see.



Monica: The Dwarves failed because of infective leadership. When they had Golems they were able hold the line without losing an inch despite that leadership



I now have effective leaders, Golems, Mages, a human army and potentiality Werewolves and Elves at my side. I fully believe I can go into the Deep Roads and crush them.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

What of the Chantry Knight? What I forgot to mention was that I plan on giving the Circle freedom in Fereldan ( Just like it can happen to a mage PC at the end origins ), I do not believe the Chantry would ever accept it.

If the Chantry contemplates an Exalted March for the death of one priest in the riots in Orzammar, then I fully believe they would declare one on Fereldan for mages gaining Freedom, even more so since I believe Celene is the one who controls the Chantry.

Gaider said it won't happen, the Chantry will reject it and it thus won't happen. What they might get is marginal freedom, but for them to be completely autonomous? Won't happen, unless you plan to make it so anyways in your ff.

So you want to risk war for mage freedom?
They can certainly be a valuable weapon but here, they are more trouble than they are worth.
If I had the power, I would defiantely try to reform the system. But since I don't, I won't start a war over it. But you are much much more aggressive than I am, so differences in personality I guess

[Monica21]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

As for allies, it is not certain either way, but we shall see.

Monica: The Dwarves failed because of infective leadership. When they had Golems they were able hold the line without losing an inch despite that leadership.

What in-game evidence do you have for this? In the scene played prior to the game there are dwarves and golems outside the gates of Bownammar and they couldn't hold it.

I now have effective leaders, Golems, Mages, a human army and potentiality Werewolves and Elves at my side. I fully believe I can go into the Deep Roads and crush them.

The only way you're going to get elves and mages to follow you into the Deep Roads is if they're Wardens. What do the werewolves have to gain by it? For that matter, what does a human army have to gain by it? When the darkspawn are underground then they're underground. Mostly held back by the Legion of the Dead, the dwarves, and some Wardens, but they're forgotten when they're underground.

You don't know what's underground. You can get maps of the Deep Roads and try to use those, but that won't account for the tunnels the darkspawn built or sections of road that are impassable. You'd be fighting an enemy on ground you can't effectively scout and an against an enemy that has numbers you aren't even aware of. You're fighting blind, and that's a bad way to crush an enemy.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I concur with Monica. A genocidal campaign against the darkspawn would require decades if not centuries and a lot of manpower and ressources that it's practically unfeasible. Not to mention logistics problems, supplying an army underground, clearing out chokepoints....etc

[Costin_Razvan]

The dwarves are not blind in the Deep Roads, stone sense and all. That's how I deal with the Deep Roads.



The Human Army is the Fereldan one. The werewolves want to find a place in the world, and the Lady of the Forest would probably see reason in seeking to destroy the Darkspawn once and for all. The Elves are trickier then the rest, but they might accept it for the lands at Ostagar.



As for Bownammar. That was a small number of Golems. They used to have Regiments of them until they lost the Anvil. When the First Blight began ( by what the codex says ), the reason the Dwarves lost so badly was because of nobles were in the middle of a civil war.



Obviously it would not be easy, and yes it would take many years to achieve this goal and that is why I need mages, and the get mages I need to give them a reason to join my force. I would never allow the Chantry to dictate my actions, it will mean war, but I won't back down from that.



One thing I believe Bhelen and the other dwarves want above all else is to reclaim their glory, and if a surface nation would stand in the way of that by wanting to deny them a powerful weapon, mages, then I can very well see the Dwarves willing to wage war against Orlais.

[Monica21]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The dwarves are not blind in the Deep Roads, stone sense and all. That's how I deal with the Deep Roads.

Stone sense means dwarves know north, south, east and west, and up and down when they're underground. At least that was my understanding. It doesn't tell them that there's a 200 meter long tunnel 5 kilometers ahead with 12 genlocks and an emissary. It's not a replacement for proper scouting, if that's what you're trying to say.

The Human Army is the Fereldan one. The werewolves want to find a place in the world, and the Lady of the Forest would probably see reason in seeking to destroy the Darkspawn once and for all. The Elves are trickier then the rest, but they might accept it for the lands at Ostagar.

Yes, and what incentive does the Ferelden army have for heading into the Deep Roads? Unless they're being invaded on the surface, human armies don't much care about the Deep Roads. I think the Lady cares less about what happens to the dwarves or humans than the elves do. Unless the darkspawn are directly threatening her existence, then I don't think it's possible. And, as KoP said, the elves aren't going to throw themselves underground for years for the possible promise of land. Land that has been given and taken away more than once by humans. They're better off letting you send your armies underground and just taking whatever they want.

As for Bownammar. That was a small number of Golems. They used to have Regiments of them until they lost the Anvil. When the First Blight began ( by what the codex says ), the reason the Dwarves lost so badly was because of nobles were in the middle of a civil war.

Well, they're not in the middle of a civil war now and they can barely hold them back. Duncan tells you that the armies of darkspawn underground are too vast to be defeated.

Obviously it would not be easy, and yes it would take many years to achieve this goal and that is why I need mages, and the get mages I need to give them a reason to join my force. I would never allow the Chantry to dictate my actions, it will mean war, but I won't back down from that.

It won't work. Ferelden will end up as a vassal state to the Chantry. You can't defeat all Andrastian nations.

One thing I believe Bhelen and the other dwarves want above all else is to reclaim their glory, and if a surface nation would stand in the way of that by wanting to deny them a powerful weapon, mages, then I can very well see the Dwarves willing to wage war against Orlais.

Since Orlais is a very powerful trading partner, I disagree.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Bhelen doesn't think like that. In fact, he doesn't like it when surfacers are fighting the war for them, it's clear in the Noble Origin, because he is smart. He knows that if the dwarves depend on surfacers too much in their war, they are going to be assimilated. So I don't think Bhelen would enthusiastically like having your forces in his deep roads.

Mages are not that decisive and I really don't see Bhelen participating in this mess tbh. He needs trade as much as he needs military victories. He'll probably look at you as a threat anyhow, and rightfully so.

[Costin_Razvan]

Stone sense means dwarves know north, south, east and west, and up and down when they're underground. At least that was my understanding. It doesn't tell them that there's a 200 meter long tunnel 5 kilometers ahead with 12 genlocks and an emissary. It's not a replacement for proper scouting, if that's what you're trying to say.

You forget that I have my own Wardens as well. Hell my cannon is a Dwarf Warden, so yeah.

Yes, and what incentive does the Ferelden army have for heading into the Deep Roads? Unless they're being invaded on the surface, human armies don't much care about the Deep Roads. I think the Lady cares less about what happens to the dwarves or humans than the elves do. Unless the darkspawn are directly threatening her existence, then I don't think it's possible. And, as KoP said, the elves aren't going to throw themselves underground for years for the possible promise of land. Land that has been given and taken away more than once by humans. They're better off letting you send your armies underground and just taking whatever they want.

I control Fereldan, don't forget that. The Fereldans DO send vast military aid if you are a DN and ask the queen, so it seems to me that your point is somewhat moot.



As for the Werewolves. The Darkspawn are a continuous threat to the existence of all life, the only solution for them is extermination.



And who said "possible" I would give them the land right there and then if they join my military alliance. Seems reasonable enough.

Well, they're not in the middle of a civil war now and they can barely hold them back. Duncan tells you that the armies of darkspawn underground are too vast to be defeated.

What Duncan says is not the universal truth. They are losing now because they lost too much during the First Blight to ever recover.

It won't work. Ferelden will end up as a vassal state to the Chantry. You can't defeat all Andrastian nations.

Nevara, Orlais, Antiva and Anderfels. Antiva has no army and I don't see the crows taking part in this unless hired. The Anderfels has few troops they can spare. Nevarra and Orlais would not be able to coordinate their efforts due the dislike they share for one another.



So yes, I believe I can defeat the Andrastian nations, especially when I consider that a great deal of apostate mages will flock to Fereldan.



As for Bhelen, I will deal with him. Let's just say he won't like it, at ALL.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
As for Bhelen, I will deal with him. Let's just say he won't like it, at ALL.

Ah of course.
So you'll deal with the bannorn, with Eamon, with Anora, with Bhelen, with Orzammar, with the Dalish, with Orlais, with the Chantry, with all Andrastian nations singlehandedly and still maintain a force strong enough to also exterminate the darkspawn.

I don't think even messianic cultures expect God to send them someone like that

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:01 .

[Costin_Razvan]

If you want I can go into more detail in PM, but I believe I have already discussed the matter of Fereldan leadership with you.

[TJPags]

Let me understand this.



You're advocating invading Orlais, the country whose possible invasion during Origins would have meant the end of Ferelden as we know it, and you're planning to do it with an army that's been partially decimated by the Blight?



And to make this highly risky proposition even remotely feasible, you're going to get the dwarves as allies? Ignoring the trade issue (which I think is a HUGE problem for you, but has been discussed above) your incentive to them is that you'll help them recover the lost Taigs? But only after you win your virtually unwinnable war against Orlais? You think they're going to go for this? After all, assuming you do defeat Orlais, even with their help, how torn up are your armies going to be? How long would that take? How much weakend will your forces be by the need to keep troops in Orlais to occupy that much larger nation? Or do you think you'll somehow kill Celene, and the rest of Orlais will surrender and greet your occupation with open arms?



Bold plans for a tiny nation whose sovereinty was threatened by a mere 4 legions of chevaliers on the border.

[Monica21]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
You forget that I have my own Wardens as well. Hell my canon is a Dwarf Warden, so yeah.

"So yeah" what? You're going to scout the entirety of the Deep Roads by yourself? Being able to sense darkspawn doesn't give you the detail you need. Even Utha didn't quite know numbers and particulars in The Calling. She had a sense of where she was going and a sense of darkspawn, but not much better than any of the other Wardens. You still have to know where you're going and what's in front of you. Being a Dwarf Warden doesn't give you much of an advantage.

I control Fereldan, don't forget that. The Fereldans DO send vast military aid if you are a DN and ask the queen, so it seems to me that your point is somewhat moot.

You control Ferelden as long as the Bannorn and the rest of the nobles let you. The moment you step outside your authority you've lost support and you've got nothing. It seems to me that freeing the mages, declaring war on Orlais and welcoming an Exalted March is about all the nobles would need to assassinate you.

As for the Werewolves. The Darkspawn are a continuous threat to the existence of all life, the only solution for them is extermination.

They survived just fine for 400 years. It could be 800 before the next Blight.

And who said "possible" I would give them the land right there and then if they join my military alliance. Seems reasonable enough.

Giving them land that they may never see because of the strong possibility of death in the Deep Roads is not the best incentive.

What Duncan says is not the universal truth. They are losing now because they lost too much during the First Blight to ever recover.

And your belief that you can defeat Orlais, and an Exalted March and have enough people left who care about your cause is also not a universal truth.

Nevara, Orlais, Antiva and Anderfels. Antiva has no army and I don't see the crows taking part in this unless hired. The Anderfels has few troops they can spare. Nevarra and Orlais would not be able to coordinate their efforts due the dislike they share for one another.

Nations are always willing to form pacts if it means weakening another nation. All they have to do is agree to invade Ferelden.

So yes, I believe I can defeat the Andrastian nations, especially when I consider that a great deal of apostate mages will flock to Fereldan.

Sure.

Modifié par Monica21, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:09 .

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Nevara, Orlais, Antiva and Anderfels. Antiva has no army and I don't see the crows taking part in this unless hired. The Anderfels has few troops they can spare. Nevarra and Orlais would not be able to coordinate their efforts due the dislike they share for one another.

So yes, I believe I can defeat the Andrastian nations, especially when I consider that a great deal of apostate mages will flock to Fereldan.

*rubs temples*

Since when doesn't Antiva have any army, who decided that? You would need to have Nevarra with you in order to even have a remote chance, and once you take Orlais, what is to stop them from taking it for themselves, and then taking Ferelden? Especially since you have shown yourself to be so trustworthy by assassinating every ally you've had. The Free Marches are Andrastian too, they'd probably take offense as well.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If you want I can go into more detail in PM, but I believe I have already discussed the matter of Fereldan leadership with you.

Not necessary. It's your FF, so go with whatever pleases you.

I have a very different vision in mind. and I think this difference is remarkably similar to the difference between Abd Al Rahman III and Ibn Abi 'Amer al Mansour.
Abd Al Rahman was the one who built and planned for the future and he was the one who ushered the Andalusian Golden Age. Al Mansour on the otherhand, despite his brilliance that I greatly admire, ended up destroying it presicely because he thought he could do everything and planned only for the short term. He led 50+ victorious military campaigns personally, and yet that did not prevent the fall of the Umayyad caliphate a few decades later because of his short term policies and because of him thinking he can take power and "deal" with opposition whenever he could (and he was largely succesful in the short run. But he was greatly responsable for the disaster afterwards). 

So that's why I find it very unappealing and too radical for my tastes.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:19 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
Since when doesn't Antiva have any army, who decided that? You would need to have Nevarra with you in order to even have a remote chance, and once you take Orlais, what is to stop them from taking it for themselves, and then taking Ferelden? Especially since you have shown yourself to be so trustworthy by assassinating every ally you've had. The Free Marches are Andrastian too, they'd probably take offense as well.

If I was the Nevarran ruler, I would free ride. I'd let Ferelden take most of the casualties and attack Orlais only when Orlais's armies are deep inside Ferelden territory. I would gain, Ferelden would gain nothing.

Now if this bold Ferelden now wants to create an elven homeland in Orlesian territory (which will likely involve the extermination or forced relocation of humans settled there) and wants to start a mage revolution and be a harbor for maleficarum. I could put aside my hatred for Orlais and help them fight this rogue state in exchange for economic and political concessions. Not to mention that this would please my population that would rightfully be appalled.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:17 .

[Monica21]

KoP, you realize that every time you throw out those names I have to pull up the Google, right?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...

KoP, you realize that every time you throw out those names I have to pull up the Google, right?

lol Yea, but I'd be careful. Some of the info is inaccurate (especially in wikia).
The best sources are still books in this field. Books written by Philip Hitti, Watt and other hsitorians.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:25 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Being able to sense darkspawn doesn't give you the detail you need. Even Utha didn't quite know numbers and particulars in The Calling. She had a sense of where she was going and a sense of darkspawn, but not much better than any of the other Wardens. You still have to know where you're going and what's in front of you. Being a Dwarf Warden doesn't give you much of an advantage.

It helps with scouting properly. Seriously, advocating that you should ignore the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads is a fool's idea. It's not ideal to have to kill them all, but it is necessary to end the threat they pose.

You control Ferelden as long as the Bannorn and the rest of the nobles let you. The moment you step outside your authority you've lost support and you've got nothing. It seems to me that freeing the mages, declaring war on Orlais and welcoming an Exalted March is about all the nobles would need to assassinate you.

You seems to forget that a great deal of nobles in Fereldan hate Orlais, many of the Arls and stronger Banns suffered greatly at their hands. What do you think their reaction will be once I reveal to them that Celene had plans to take over Fereldan?

They survived just fine for 400 years. It could be 800 before the next Blight.

I repeat myself. It is beyond foolish in my mind to ignore the Darkspawn. I am certain the Lady would agree on this, if you believe differently then that is your opinion.

Giving them land that they may never see because of the strong possibility of death in the Deep Roads is not the best incentive.

I give them Land which they can settle, in return I ask for military support for them. Which means that many Dalish can start building in Ostagar while others fight in the Deep Roads.

And your belief that you can defeat Orlais, and an Exalted March and have enough people left who care about your cause is also not a universal truth.

I believe I can. I also believe I can lose if I screw up. It is not certain either way, and as for having enough people. Well here is a shocker, armies aren't up of a majority of a country's population. There is no battle in known Ancient or Medieval history which involved more then 500.000 soldiers, and those are rather unique exceptions as most battles involved less then 100.000 men.

[Costin_Razvan]

I could put aside my hatred for Orlais and help them fight this rogue state in exchange for economic and political concessions. Not to mention that this would please my population that would rightfully be appalled.

Assuming that your people would also put their hatred of Orlais aside after decades of war.

 So that's why I find it very unappealing and too radical for my tastes.

It's a matter of personal preference then. 

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:28 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I believe I can. I also believe I can lose if I screw up. It is not certain either way, and as for having enough people. Well here is a shocker, armies aren't up of a majority of a country's population. There is no battle in known Ancient or Medieval history which involved more then 500.000 soldiers, and those are rather unique exceptions as most battles involved less then 100.000 men.

I am pretty sure the darkspawn won't abide by that.

I think this discussion reached its limit. It's going back and forth between "you can't" and "I can".