209 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I could put aside my hatred for Orlais and help them fight this rogue state in exchange for economic and political concessions. Not to mention that this would please my population that would rightfully be appalled.

Assuming that your people would also put their hatred of Orlais aside after decades of war.

They would, if you're planing what you are planing.

And it's not only personal preference. I reject such radicalism because more often than not, it ends as a complete disaster.

[Costin_Razvan]

I am pretty sure the darkspawn won't abide by that.

I think this discussion reached its limit. It's going back and forth between "you can't" and "I can".

In the Deep Roads the Darkspawn would lose their advantage in numbers given they fact they would have to fight in tight spaces.

 They would, if you're planing what you are planing. 

And it's not only personal preference. I reject such radicalism because more often than not, it ends as a complete disaster.

My plans include a promise to the elven leaders for the lands in the Dales to be given back to them if we win, such talk would never leave the war room. As for the mages. The Chantry can claim Fereldan is harboring Blood Mages. I can claim that Orlais is seeking to find a reason to conquer Fereldan and I certainly have proof of that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:35 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I am pretty sure the darkspawn won't abide by that.

I think this discussion reached its limit. It's going back and forth between "you can't" and "I can".

In the Deep Roads the Darkspawn would lose their advantage in numbers given they fact they would have to fight in tight spaces.

They can win by sheer attrition. You would have to worry about disease, the taint, supplies, morale, numbers and dozens of things if you want to start a campaign that is going to last centuries (if you want to clear all of Thedas of darkspawn that is).
You assume that this campaign is going to be about pitched battles.

And it would be very funny if the darkspawn find an old God and they rise to the surface, while your army is underground.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:34 .

[Monica21]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

It helps with scouting properly. Seriously, advocating that you should ignore the Darkspawn in the Deep Roads is a fool's idea. It's not ideal to have to kill them all, but it is necessary to end the threat they pose.

I didn't say it didn't help, but it still gives you no idea about specifics. Stone sense doesn't magically mean that you know how many enemies you have and where they are and what's changed in the Deep Roads since the thaigs fell.

And I've never advocated ignoring them, but that's what Orzammar is for. If Orzammar is ever in need of aid in driving the darkspawn back then I would send it, but I certainly wouldn't volunteer to send wave after wave of Ferelden troops in specifically to try and kill every darkspawn once and for all.

You seems to forget that a great deal of nobles in Fereldan hate Orlais, many of the Arls and stronger Banns suffered greatly at their hands. What do you think their reaction will be once I reveal to them that Celene had plans to take over Fereldan?

Sure they hate Orlais, but why would they risk their troops to invade it? And while Celene's intention may have been to take over Ferelden eventually, her plan depended on Cailan, who is now dead. I don't think they're going to be willing to invade because of a marriage that never happened.

I repeat myself. It is beyond foolish in my mind to ignore the Darkspawn. I am certain the Lady would agree on this, if you believe differently then that is your opinion.

And I never said I was ignoring them.

I give them Land which they can settle, in return I ask for military support for them. Which means that many Dalish can start building in Ostagar while others fight in the Deep Roads.

And I still don't see a reason for the Dalish to trust you.

I believe I can. I also believe I can lose if I screw up. It is not certain either way, and as for having enough people. Well here is a shocker, armies aren't up of a majority of a country's population. There is no battle in known Ancient or Medieval history which involved more then 500.000 soldiers, and those are rather unique exceptions as most battles involved less then 100.000 men.

When I say "people who care about your cause" I mean "nobles who are willing to back you and risk their own troops." I mean, sure, defeating the darkspawn permanently would be great, but you have yet to convince me that you can actually do it, much less defeat any other nation.

[Costin_Razvan]

And your plan to deal with the Darkspawn is to leave them alone Knight, lovely. Did I ever claim it would be simple? no. It would be a massive undertaking, one which you do not agree upon and one that the other nations of Thedas could care less about, but it is one that needs to be done.

Also, clearing out some Darkspawn in the Deep Roads would give me a definite tactical advantage.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:39 .

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

You seems to forget that a great deal of nobles in Fereldan hate Orlais, many of the Arls and stronger Banns suffered greatly at their hands. What do you think their reaction will be once I reveal to them that Celene had plans to take over Fereldan?

Is this part of the same plot you mentioned earlier that ended with you assasinating Eamon?  The planted evidence you mentioned?  That's going to convince nobled whose lanfds have just been ravaged by Darkspawn to strap up and invade a much larger, much stronger nation?

And I think you forget - many nobles worked WITH the Orlesians during the occupation.  You make it sound like every noble and peasant in Ferelden - many of whom weren't born when Orlair occupied it - has a hatred for Orlaid that goes bone deep.  I find that doubtful.  Consider that Bryce Cousland had recently been visiting Orlais - doesn't sound like he hates them with an abiding passion.

[Costin_Razvan]

If Fereldan has such a strong chance of losing, then what makes you believe Celene won't eventually invade? Because of Nevara? Counting on Nevara to hold Orlais in check is a VERY bad idea to me.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And your plan to deal with the Darkspawn is to leave them alone Knight, lovely. Did I ever claim it would be simple? no. It would be a massive undertaking, one which you do not agree upon and one that the other nations of Thedas could care less about, but it is one that needs to be done.

Also, clearing out some Darkspawn in the Deep Roads would give me a definite tactical advantage.

No, I never said I would leave them alone. But to risk fighting a war with all Andrastrian nations? Hell no.

Besides, you say that you want to fight them so you can make sure you can fight the darkspawn in peace. Ok, assuming you can defeat all of them (highly unlikely), what's the guarantee that when your armies go underground, those same nations that you aggressed and attacked are not going to start fighting you again? Unless you want to exterminate them too? You know, so you can be sure that no one is threatening you from the back.
Or you may want to put garrisons all over Thedas to ensure that they don't. Assuming that Ferelden even has numbers to do that (it doesn't). You won't have enough men to clear the deep roads.

And tactical advantage is irrlevent in this case, it's all about logistics, the general strategy of this genocidal campaign. One that is based on you somehow being able to defeat all Andrastrian nations single handedly, deal with all opposition like it's eating breakfast, still being able to make sure that those you have wrongfully declared war against won't start attacking you when your armies are underground, and amidst all this mess still have enough forces to exterminate the darkspawn all over Thedas.

Yea, what did Sten say?
"One fool plan on top of another".

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:49 .

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If Fereldan has such a strong chance of losing, then what makes you believe Celene won't eventually invade? Because of Nevara? Counting on Nevara to hold Orlais in check is a VERY bad idea to me.

There is a big difference between an defensive war and an offensive one.

[TJPags]

Why does everyone assume Celene has all these grand plans to invade and conquer Ferelden? There's no evidence of this, except that Orlais had once done so - and Celene was not Empress then - wasn't even born then. Might not even have been born when Ferelden gained it's independance.

[Monica21]

TJPags wrote...

Why does everyone assume Celene has all these grand plans to invade and conquer Ferelden? There's no evidence of this, except that Orlais had once done so - and Celene was not Empress then - wasn't even born then. Might not even have been born when Ferelden gained it's independance.

I think Celene was planning on using Cailan so her heirs could take the Ferelden throne, but I don't think she is or was planning an invasion. Invasions are too messy.

[Costin_Razvan]

If victory was achieved against the Chantry, then there would be a need to create a new government so the recently conquered nations can be ruled. Once leadership has been set in place properly ( and whatever rebels remained dealt with ) only then can the efforts against the Darkspawn be resumed.

There is a big difference between an defensive war and an offensive one

If you are stuck on the defense, then you have already lost. I believe Sun Tzu said that.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 septembre 2010 - 07:57 .

[TJPags]

Monica21 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Why does everyone assume Celene has all these grand plans to invade and conquer Ferelden? There's no evidence of this, except that Orlais had once done so - and Celene was not Empress then - wasn't even born then. Might not even have been born when Ferelden gained it's independance.

I think Celene was planning on using Cailan so her heirs could take the Ferelden throne, but I don't think she is or was planning an invasion. Invasions are too messy.

Well, that's an assumption - a fair one, I grant you, given that it's unlikely Orlais would take a back seat in precedence in a Ferelden-Orlais marriage union.

But as you say, it's a far cry from that to an invasion.  And the threat of invasion seems to be the impetus for Costin's grand scheme here.

[Costin_Razvan]

The threat of an invasion which is very real if one seeks to free the mages of Fereldan from under the Chantry.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 septembre 2010 - 08:01 .

[Monica21]

Costin_Razvan wrote...
If you are stuck on the defense, then you have already lost. I believe Sun Tzu said that.

Sun Tzu also said "If the campaign is protracted, the resources of the State will not be equal to the strain" and "There is no evidence of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare."

How long do you think you can hold your country at war against an Exalted March, and then if you win, also against the darkspawn?

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

If victory was achieved against the Chantry, then there would be a need to create a new government so the recently conquered nations can be ruled. Once leadership has been set in place properly ( and whatever rebels remained dealt with ) only then can the efforts against the Darkspawn be resumed.

Ah yes, so you want to conquer all of Thedas first, instore puppet governments all over the continent and then go exterminate the darkspawn, with no fear of rebellions due to political and religious reasons when your armies are underground. 

So now, not only are you claiming that you can defeat all Andrastrian nations. You are saying you can conquer all of them, remove their governments and put puppet ones, destroy the religious and social institutions, weed out rebellion and opposition and exterminate the darkspawn all within your lifespan, all that based on one of the weakest and poorest nations of Thedas and with no plan or regards to the economy and how to fund this massive endeavour.
And you were saying I was thinking too much about the long term lol.

Sorry dude, that's unfeasible.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...
I believe I can. I also believe I can lose if I screw up. It is not certain either way, and as for having enough people. Well here is a shocker, armies aren't up of a majority of a country's population. There is no battle in known Ancient or Medieval history which involved more then 500.000 soldiers, and those are rather unique exceptions as most battles involved less then 100.000 men.

I am pretty sure the darkspawn won't abide by that.

I think this discussion reached its limit. It's going back and forth between "you can't" and "I can".

True enough.
 
What Ferelden, Orzamar, and the Dalish need is a couple decades if not a century to nurse their wounds, rebuild, and clean up.

The Blight is over, and now you have to clean up after the party. No one in Ferelden wants to march to war anymore most likely they want to go home, rebuild them, and be with their famalies again.

As a final note an invasion would fail, like they always do in the past, unless you have NUMBERS. Which Ferelden does not have. Orlais is many times over the size and population, you may win a few battles but there are not enough people to hold the ground you claim. That is one thing that invaders always trip on.

Really a war, right after a blight is not a good idea. For example after every plauge in Europe nations became isolationist and rebuilt instead of picking fights.

[Costin_Razvan]

The only way to win against an Exalted March is to crush Orlais and the Chantry. In which case I gain a great deal of land the resources from it. Resources which I would use for my war against the Darkspawn once I secure my hold on those conquered nations.

Dealing with the Darkspawn is not ideal from a military perspective.

 Really a war, right after a blight is not a good idea. For example after every plauge in Europe nations became isolationist and rebuilt instead of picking fights.

Except that in this situation only Fereldan has been hit by the Plague while Orlais has been untouched.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 septembre 2010 - 08:06 .

[Herr Uhl]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

There is a big difference between an defensive war and an offensive one

If you are stuck on the defense, then you have already lost. I believe Sun Tzu said that.

Because the words of him are infallible?

If you're stuck on attack there will be new frontiers that are even bigger that you'll need to attack, and that means that you'll need to spread out the armies to defend so that border raids become a problem and then comes the same thing again. With your tactics you'd have to conquer all of Thedas if you wanted to deal with darkspawn without any threats.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

The only way to win against an Exalted March is to crush Orlais and the Chantry. In which case I gain a great deal of land the resources from it. Resources which I would use for my war against the Darkspawn once I secure my hold on those conquered nations.

lol Well good luck I guess.
I wish reality was as easy as RISK too sometimes.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Herr Uhl wrote...
With your tactics you'd have to conquer all of Thedas if you wanted to deal with darkspawn without any threats.

Conquer and subdue all of Thedas. Which even the Qunari couldn't do.
But apparently he has it handled.

[Giggles_Manically]

Wow and I thought when I played Empire Total war I had issues with World Dominance.



Celene is a politician and Ferelden is on an glory high, with a hardened army the last thing she is going to do is attack it.



What Ferelden needs is time to rebuild, not take a war weary people into a protracted ground war against a neighbor who outnumbers them.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...
With your tactics you'd have to conquer all of Thedas if you wanted to deal with darkspawn without any threats.

Conquer and subdue all of Thedas. Which even the Qunari couldn't do.
But apparently he has it handled.

Once he builds a few ICBMs he should pull it off.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

Wow and I thought when I played Empire Total war I had issues with World Dominance.

I assume you're going to stop accusing me of wanting to conquer the world? Cause clearly some are more deserving of this

[Dean_the_Young]

Come on, KoP. All you need are a few blood mages with blood wound (those maleficar that will flock to this Brave New Ferelden), and then the rest is handing peasants some knives to slit all those paralyzed throats.



Oh, sure, you might need a few golems and knights to counter the templars who have those rare magic-resistance armors, but really, how many of them are there really?



Probably take, oh, fifty blood mages, five throat-slitters, and another 45 tanks to conquer all of Thedas.