209 réponses à ce sujet

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

Costin_Razvan wrote...

And once that army disbands because you cannot maintain it? Yes, attacking Fereldan just after Denerim is foolish, but waiting for Fereldan's army to disband then attacking would be a rather smart move.

What makes you think you can maintain it by setting them to invade Orlais? Why do you think the nobles will back you? It seems that's the start of this plan, so how can you even manage the support of your own people in invading a country that hasn't done anything?

I think he's planning to assasinate any of the nobles that don't support him, like he's planning to do to Eamon, and Anora, and Bhelen, etc.

So he plans on sweeping to power, and going to war against everyone else, while not starting massive rebellions at the same time? All while hoping that the other nations dont side against him?

Why would anyone rebell against such a trusting leader with a well thought out, clearly reachable goal?

And other nations?  Be concerned about a rash of assasinations, the casting down of the Chantry, freeing of mages, gathering of apostates and malificar, granting of human lands to knife eared subhumans?  No, why would they mind? 

[KnightofPhoenix]

Monica21 wrote...
Okay, my first thought was "How will beating Joe Frazier help him?"

LOL well it could, you never know.
I should have specified, I meant the mameluk leader. That M. Ali lol.

Well this thread is fun

[TJPags]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

To be fair, I don't recall him saying he would assassinate Bhelen, only that he had plans that Bhelen would not like.

Presumably, however, those plans would insure either Bhelen or his successor would not only agree to go along with this war, but also be able to convince the noble houses of Orzamaar to do so as well. (Unlike, you know, the Blight, where many of them didn't despite treaty obligations and the Blight itself.)

Exactly that, and that is how I plan to deal with the Leadership of Fereldan and the Bannorn.

To be specific. I do not plan on marching into Orlais once the Archdemon falls but rather into the Deep Roads to strike at the weakened Darkspawn. However the way I see it is that once I give the Circle freedom for their service in the Blight, and in the context of the story I am making a mage that took the US. Arguments would spark with the Chantry.

Since I refuse to bow down to the Chantry, then it would start an exalted march. What I plan for this is strike headlong into Orlesian land before they can march on Fereldan. While the other nations did provide aid against the Dales, Tevinter and the Qunari it should be noted that they did not provide it immediately against The Dales.

Exactly which?  Assasinate them, or somehow coerce them?  Because, you know, after the first few times that happens, the rest aren't likely to rebel, or get suspicious or anything.

And so, FIRST you fight the darkspawn, then while doing THAT, you antagonize the CHantry so that IT attacks, and then, what?  You pull out of the Deep Roads, leaving the Dwarves on their own against the now stirred up Darkspawn, and you expect them to leave the Deep Roads defenseless now to help you against a war of your own making?

And what about those 4 legions of chevaliers on the border, the ones that necisitated Loghain's retreat at Ostagar to defend against?  You're just going to take the army which was halved by events at Ostagar, weakened further by the Civil War, then the fight against the AD at Denerim, and THEN by the beginning of your campaign in the Deep Roads, and decimate them, then continue into Orlais and lay waste to the nation AND the Chantry?  While continuing to assassinate or coerce any Ferelden noble who questions you, of course.

Man, I thought Loghain was nuts - he was the model of sanity compared to this.

[Monica21]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Okay, my first thought was "How will beating Joe Frazier help him?"

LOL well it could, you never know.
I should have specified, I meant the mameluk leader. That M. Ali lol.

Well this thread is fun

Once I got to the "of Egypt" part I remembered that he took his name from someone, but I didn't know he was Egyptian or what he did.

And yes! This thread is like a history/military strategy/political science seminar!

Modifié par Monica21, 19 septembre 2010 - 08:49 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

To be fair, I don't recall him saying he would assassinate Bhelen, only that he had plans that Bhelen would not like.

Presumably, however, those plans would insure either Bhelen or his successor would not only agree to go along with this war, but also be able to convince the noble houses of Orzamaar to do so as well. (Unlike, you know, the Blight, where many of them didn't despite treaty obligations and the Blight itself.)

Exactly that, and that is how I plan to deal with the Leadership of Fereldan and the Bannorn.

Exactly what, pray tell?

I really am curious. What are you going to do, exactly, that would not only coerce the King of Orzammar to effectively vassalize himself to you (and not simply shut the doors in defense), but bring the Dwarven nobility in line as well, a feat that hasn't been accomplished in Orzammar outside of a Paragon's intervention?

Similar question about the Bannorn. They didn't need a central figure to rally behind when they opposed Loghain, who was an unquestionable military genius and was killing and arresting them in great carload lots. What will you do to coerce them that Loghain couldn't? Killing Eamon and the leadership of Redcliffe would incite them, but they never needed someone in particular to rally behind, only to rally against.

To be specific. I do not plan on marching into Orlais once the Archdemon falls but rather into the Deep Roads to strike at the weakened Darkspawn. However the way I see it is that once I give the Circle freedom for their service in the Blight, and in the context of the story I am making a mage that took the US. Arguments would spark with the Chantry.

Since I refuse to bow down to the Chantry, then it would start an exalted march. What I plan for this is strike headlong into Orlesian land before they can march on Fereldan. While the other nations did provide aid against the Dales, Tevinter and the Qunari it should be noted that they did not provide it immediately against The Dales.

And if the Chantry and Orlesian Empire don't simply capitulate after your capture of the Orlesian capital? (Which, given the ground distance involved, would almost certainly have to be by sea.)

Most groups that rely on a quick victory to win tend to lose the long war that occurs when their political enemies do not do exactly as they wish.

I'll be frank: this reads far too much like Imperial Japan's plans leading into WW2, in which victory depended on everyone doing just what Japan wanted to lead into a decisive battle Japan, of course, would win. A decisive battle which never happened, because the US battleship fleet never chose to engage Japan in a battle it knew it would lose, and simply turned and sailed away, and then left many of Japan's other problems (a stalemated war in China, starting the war with limited strategic reserves, planing their operation with transport ships stolen from their merchant marine which already couldn't support their economy as it was) overwhelm and collapse it.

[Herr Uhl]

Monica21 wrote...

And yes! This thread is like a history/military strategy/political science seminar!

I've never been to one (well, some history and political science, but nothing major), but if this was it I would be extremely disappointed.

[Giggles_Manically]

Monica21 wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Monica21 wrote...
Okay, my first thought was "How will beating Joe Frazier help him?"

LOL well it could, you never know.
I should have specified, I meant the mameluk leader. That M. Ali lol.

Well this thread is fun

Once I got to the "of Egypt" part I remembered that he took his name from someone, but I didn't know he was Egyptian or what he did.

And yes! This thread is like a history/military strategy/political science seminar!

This whole Iron fist model does remind me of what my Politics prof showed us.
He walked in with a pale of water and said  to get some out in your hand. I did it and with a cupped hand I held a good amount of water.

He then said grab the water as hard as you can, and when I tried to grasp it, it all fell out in the pale again. He ended by saying people are like water, with a gentle yet firm grasp you can hold them, with a iron grip they all slip out and away from you.

Nice demo he had there.

[Monica21]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Monica21 wrote...

And yes! This thread is like a history/military strategy/political science seminar!

I've never been to one (well, some history and political science, but nothing major), but if this was it I would be extremely disappointed.

Well, okay, we're clearly not talking to Rommel here, but it suffices for an interesting Sunday discussion.

[KnightofPhoenix]

TJPags wrote...
And so, FIRST you fight the darkspawn, then while doing THAT, you antagonize the CHantry so that IT attacks, and then, what?  You pull out of the Deep Roads, leaving the Dwarves on their own against the now stirred up Darkspawn, and you expect them to leave the Deep Roads defenseless now to help you against a war of your own making?

Let me try to sumarise it.

He becomes prince consort of Ferelden. All the problems of the bannorn and internal strife and economic collapse are fixed via assassinations and iron fist methods, because that worked so well in the past. 
Eamon mysteriously eliminated. Anora dies of natural causes that no one doubts. He becomes king with opposition strangely deciding to die the same week.
Creates a military alliance with dwarves, dalish and mages, all while trying to kill their leaders of course.
The Chantry is not happy, so he invades Orlais, while also manage to convince allies to follow him in the war that has nothing to do with darkspawn. And by convince, I mean coerce and assassinate.

Unexpectedely, all andrastrian nations join the fray, but that's not problem, he defeats all of them, conquers them, removes their governments and compeltely obliterate the Chantry, with little opposition, and all that managed by one of the poorest and weakest nations of Thedas. All while exploiting and stealing the conquered lands for ressources, because that's how ressources are best acquired, with little opposition.
And once he conquers all of  Thedas in a matter of days, he can finally start killing darkspawn. So he sends all his army underground, while at the same time making sure the countries he invaded and plundered for ressources won't take that opportunity to strike.
And thus ends the darkspawn threat. Forever.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
And so, FIRST you fight the darkspawn, then while doing THAT, you antagonize the CHantry so that IT attacks, and then, what?  You pull out of the Deep Roads, leaving the Dwarves on their own against the now stirred up Darkspawn, and you expect them to leave the Deep Roads defenseless now to help you against a war of your own making?

Let me try to sumarise it.

He becomes prince consort of Ferelden. All the problems of the bannorn and internal strife and economic collapse are fixed via assassinations and iron fist methods, because that worked so well in the past. 
Eamon mysteriously eliminated. Anora dies of natural causes that no one doubts. He becomes king with opposition strangely deciding to die the same week.
Creates a military alliance with dwarves, dalish and mages, all while trying to kill their leaders of course.
The Chantry is not happy, so he invades Orlais, while also manage to convince allies to follow him in the war that has nothing to do with darkspawn. And by convince, I mean coerce and assassinate.

Unexpectedely, all andrastrian nations join the fray, but that's not problem, he defeats all of them, conquers them, removes their governments and compeltely obliterate the Chantry, with little opposition, and all that managed by one of the poorest and weakest nations of Thedas. All while exploiting and stealing the conquered lands for ressources, because that's how ressources are best acquired, with little opposition.
And once he conquers all of  Thedas in a matter of days, he can finally start killing darkspawn. So he sends all his army underground, while at the same time making sure the countries he invaded and plundered for ressources won't take that opportunity to strike.
And thus ends the darkspawn threat. Forever.

Dont forget that the Qunari might decide to show up at any moment.
Or that the Crows might just murder you in your sleep.
Or that the Chantry wont throw every mage and templar at you.
Or that Orlais has the most elite calvary in the world.

[TJPags]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
And so, FIRST you fight the darkspawn, then while doing THAT, you antagonize the CHantry so that IT attacks, and then, what?  You pull out of the Deep Roads, leaving the Dwarves on their own against the now stirred up Darkspawn, and you expect them to leave the Deep Roads defenseless now to help you against a war of your own making?

Let me try to sumarise it.

He becomes prince consort of Ferelden. All the problems of the bannorn and internal strife and economic collapse are fixed via assassinations and iron fist methods, because that worked so well in the past. 
Eamon mysteriously eliminated. Anora dies of natural causes that no one doubts. He becomes king with opposition strangely deciding to die the same week.
Creates a military alliance with dwarves, dalish and mages, all while trying to kill their leaders of course.
The Chantry is not happy, so he invades Orlais, while also manage to convince allies to follow him in the war that has nothing to do with darkspawn. And by convince, I mean coerce and assassinate.

Unexpectedely, all andrastrian nations join the fray, but that's not problem, he defeats all of them, conquers them, removes their governments and compeltely obliterate the Chantry, with little opposition, and all that managed by one of the poorest and weakest nations of Thedas. All while exploiting and stealing the conquered lands for ressources, because that's how ressources are best acquired, with little opposition.
And once he conquers all of  Thedas in a matter of days, he can finally start killing darkspawn. So he sends all his army underground, while at the same time making sure the countries he invaded and plundered for ressources won't take that opportunity to strike.
And thus ends the darkspawn threat. Forever.

See, that's what I thought the plan was.  Silly me for getting confused.

I say someone should send this to Gaider as a plot for DA3.  The only thing it doesn't have is Morrigan, Flemeth, and OGB.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I'll be frank: this reads far too much like Imperial Japan's plans leading into WW2, in which victory depended on everyone doing just what Japan wanted to lead into a decisive battle Japan, of course, would win. A decisive battle which never happened, because the US battleship fleet never chose to engage Japan in a battle it knew it would lose, and simply turned and sailed away, and then left many of Japan's other problems (a stalemated war in China, starting the war with limited strategic reserves, planing their operation with transport ships stolen from their merchant marine which already couldn't support their economy as it was) overwhelm and collapse it.

Indeed, very astute observation.
Admiral Yamamoto:
“In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success.”

[TJPags]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
And so, FIRST you fight the darkspawn, then while doing THAT, you antagonize the CHantry so that IT attacks, and then, what?  You pull out of the Deep Roads, leaving the Dwarves on their own against the now stirred up Darkspawn, and you expect them to leave the Deep Roads defenseless now to help you against a war of your own making?

Let me try to sumarise it.

He becomes prince consort of Ferelden. All the problems of the bannorn and internal strife and economic collapse are fixed via assassinations and iron fist methods, because that worked so well in the past. 
Eamon mysteriously eliminated. Anora dies of natural causes that no one doubts. He becomes king with opposition strangely deciding to die the same week.
Creates a military alliance with dwarves, dalish and mages, all while trying to kill their leaders of course.
The Chantry is not happy, so he invades Orlais, while also manage to convince allies to follow him in the war that has nothing to do with darkspawn. And by convince, I mean coerce and assassinate.

Unexpectedely, all andrastrian nations join the fray, but that's not problem, he defeats all of them, conquers them, removes their governments and compeltely obliterate the Chantry, with little opposition, and all that managed by one of the poorest and weakest nations of Thedas. All while exploiting and stealing the conquered lands for ressources, because that's how ressources are best acquired, with little opposition.
And once he conquers all of  Thedas in a matter of days, he can finally start killing darkspawn. So he sends all his army underground, while at the same time making sure the countries he invaded and plundered for ressources won't take that opportunity to strike.
And thus ends the darkspawn threat. Forever.

Dont forget that the Qunari might decide to show up at any moment.
Or that the Crows might just murder you in your sleep.
Or that the Chantry wont throw every mage and templar at you.
Or that Orlais has the most elite calvary in the world.

Shhhhhh!!!!!
Stop bringing up silly little details.

The Qunari will clearly side with Ferelden, because we have cake and cookies.
The Crows will have been paid off - after all, who do you think is going to be doing all the assasinating here?
The Chantry won't have mages, because they will all flock to Fereldens banner once the announcement of mages rights goes out.
And Orlais' military might is no match for that of Ferelden.  Dogs > horses any day.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
I'll be frank: this reads far too much like Imperial Japan's plans leading into WW2, in which victory depended on everyone doing just what Japan wanted to lead into a decisive battle Japan, of course, would win. A decisive battle which never happened, because the US battleship fleet never chose to engage Japan in a battle it knew it would lose, and simply turned and sailed away, and then left many of Japan's other problems (a stalemated war in China, starting the war with limited strategic reserves, planing their operation with transport ships stolen from their merchant marine which already couldn't support their economy as it was) overwhelm and collapse it.

Indeed, very astute observation.
Admiral Yamamoto:
“In the first six to twelve months of a war with the United States and Great Britain I will run wild and win victory upon victory. But then, if the war continues after that, I have no expectation of success.”

The underestimating of your foes is one thing that always screws people up the most in war.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Dont forget that the Qunari might decide to show up at any moment.
Or that the Crows might just murder you in your sleep.
Or that the Chantry wont throw every mage and templar at you.
Or that Orlais has the most elite calvary in the world.

Qunari? Send them female fighters and they would be too busy scratching their heads as they die.
Crows? Shale will take care of them.
Templars and mages? Maleficar and dwarves of course.
Cavalry? lol who uses cavalry? Send the hounds.

[Giggles_Manically]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Dont forget that the Qunari might decide to show up at any moment.
Or that the Crows might just murder you in your sleep.
Or that the Chantry wont throw every mage and templar at you.
Or that Orlais has the most elite calvary in the world.

Qunari? Send them female fighters and they would be too busy scratching their heads as they die.
Crows? Shale will take care of them.
Templars and mages? Maleficar and dwarves of course.
Cavalry? lol who uses cavalry? Send the hounds.

Yes because doggies can take on a mounted, armoured and charging knight who weighs almost 1500 pounds all told.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Yes because doggies can take on a mounted, armoured and charging knight who weighs almost 1500 pounds all told.

Yes. It's called "overwhelm".
Plus, these would be Lyrium enhanced hounds. 

EDIT: or Golem hounds. hmmm....can we use mabari for golems?

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 19 septembre 2010 - 09:13 .

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

TJPags wrote...
And so, FIRST you fight the darkspawn, then while doing THAT, you antagonize the CHantry so that IT attacks, and then, what?  You pull out of the Deep Roads, leaving the Dwarves on their own against the now stirred up Darkspawn, and you expect them to leave the Deep Roads defenseless now to help you against a war of your own making?

Let me try to sumarise it.

He becomes prince consort of Ferelden. All the problems of the bannorn and internal strife and economic collapse are fixed via assassinations and iron fist methods, because that worked so well in the past. 
Eamon mysteriously eliminated. Anora dies of natural causes that no one doubts. He becomes king with opposition strangely deciding to die the same week.
Creates a military alliance with dwarves, dalish and mages, all while trying to kill their leaders of course.
The Chantry is not happy, so he invades Orlais, while also manage to convince allies to follow him in the war that has nothing to do with darkspawn. And by convince, I mean coerce and assassinate.

Unexpectedely, all andrastrian nations join the fray, but that's not problem, he defeats all of them, conquers them, removes their governments and compeltely obliterate the Chantry, with little opposition, and all that managed by one of the poorest and weakest nations of Thedas. All while exploiting and stealing the conquered lands for ressources, because that's how ressources are best acquired, with little opposition.
And once he conquers all of  Thedas in a matter of days, he can finally start killing darkspawn. So he sends all his army underground, while at the same time making sure the countries he invaded and plundered for ressources won't take that opportunity to strike.
And thus ends the darkspawn threat. Forever.

Have you ever read Stars and Stripes Forever?

[Dean_the_Young]

Giggles_Manically wrote...

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Giggles_Manically wrote...
Dont forget that the Qunari might decide to show up at any moment.
Or that the Crows might just murder you in your sleep.
Or that the Chantry wont throw every mage and templar at you.
Or that Orlais has the most elite calvary in the world.

Qunari? Send them female fighters and they would be too busy scratching their heads as they die.
Crows? Shale will take care of them.
Templars and mages? Maleficar and dwarves of course.
Cavalry? lol who uses cavalry? Send the hounds.

Yes because doggies can take on a mounted, armoured and charging knight who weighs almost 1500 pounds all told.

It becomes a lot less weight after the dog jumps up and removes the rider from the horse. The fall would presumably do some damage as well.

Of course, this assumes that those dirty Orlesians don't invent seatbelts!

[KnightofPhoenix]

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Have you ever read Stars and Stripes Forever?

No...and I am not sure I want to now lol

[Dean_the_Young]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...
Have you ever read Stars and Stripes Forever?

No...and I am not sure I want to now lol

Replace 'Ferelden' with 'America', 'Blight' with 'Civil War', and 'Chantry and Orlais' with 'British Empire and France'...

[Costin_Razvan]

EDIT: or Golem hounds. hmmm....can we use mabari for golems?

That's a rather scary idea...and you just reminded me of the Harvester, ugh.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 19 septembre 2010 - 09:18 .

[Dean_the_Young]

If they hadn't been stupid enough to build something that could kill them before they learned to control it, the Harvester could have been a great success. Really: why not practice the summoning/binding on something that couldn't have the power and strength to kill a nug, let alone a whole Thaig expedition? Alas, narrative-demanded idiocy.



Mind you, the same idiots would have likely insisted on using casteless and not killed Darkspawn for body parts, but the idea of using Harvesters to build more harvesters from Darkspawn dead, thus enabling them to kill more darkspawn and build more harvesters...



I just love double-win mechanics when they work out.

[Costin_Razvan]

They might as well have written a simple message for the whole DLC.



"Making Golems is bad!" It would have been the same thing story wise.

[Dean_the_Young]

Personally, I was most annoyed that my heavily-altered Golem companion got squished by a rock in the final cutscene.



I was all, like, "I can use you! You can make every remaining golem in Orzamaar more powerful! You can give magic to the magic-less! Stay with me!"



Forget the Harvester: I wanted my Runic Golem.