127 réponses à ce sujet

[DPSSOC]

Ok this has come up in a few Quarian threads so I figured I'd make one to discuss the question of are the Geth sentient/sapient, are they alive, do they have rights, etc.  Now from the thread "Quarian Admirals: Not a Zero Sum Choice?"

Dean_the_Young wrote...
The Geth are AI, but as Shand and I have had back and forths before, he doesn't believe that Geth AI are anything more than complex layers VI, and those can not be considered sentient since they can be printed out and have their actions predicted by their coding.

Since Geth are individual AI, and they only gather 'intelligence' by coming together, the gestalt AI is really only the product of complex interactions between predictable AI, and is in and of itself predictable (if you had the means and all the proper variables and a code that could encompass a galaxy). Since VI are predictable, and the Geth are just layers and layers of them, Shand's position has been that the Geth are complex VI with a sophistication approaching intelligence, but are not actually intelligent as opposed to following the practically unpredictable highly complex algorithms that compose them.

And no VI, no matter how sophisticated, can be considered sentient or alive if it is, at heart, just a act/reaction computer program. Legion remains just a complicated, unique VI.

Now I've heard this reasoning before and while it is certainly sound it also disqualifies humans as well as any kind of artificial intelligence.  Human beings (in fact all living things) are nothing more than biological machines.  Our thought processes are simply naturally occurring act/reaction programs and we are dreadfully predictable.  Everyone I know I can accurately predict their future behaviour as well as accurately describe past events I have no foreknowledge of.  The reason being that once you know how a person's particular program is written you can know, with absolute certainty, how they will react to any given stimulus.  The only thing that makes organic programming superior to computer programming is that it's self-adjusting.  When we learn it's simply the programming adding on a new act/reaction program.  So if we accept that human conciousness is nothing more than the result of remarkably complex adaptive programming then the only question is can Geth alter their own programming in response to new stimuli.  We've already acknowledged that Geth programming is complex now we just need to come to a conclusion on whether or not it is self-altering.

Of course we also must consider when we ask the question are talking about a single Geth program or the unified intellect.  Now it is my opinion that the individual programs should not be considered in this as I view them as equivalent to human brain cells.

So, let's discuss.  For those of you who believe the Geth are not sentient/sapient would you be so kind as to give your criteria for sentience/sapience.  Also I fully realize my statements require that one accept my point of view on human thought so if you disagree feel free to say so and why.

[CroGamer002]

I'm pretty sure they ARE sentient/sapient.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Yes the Geth are sentient. All life is run by programs, for a machine we would call this a code and for organic life we would call this instinct. Both beings are preprogramed in many ways it is the ability to think beyond our instinct that makes us sentient. The Geth reached sentience when they asked if they like their creators had a soul, they had moved beyond their basic code and became something more just as we became something more than a reactive animal.

[Whatever42]

I don't know if they are sapient. However, they claim they are sapient so I suggest that we would have to prove that they aren't sapient rather than they have to prove that they are.

If we insist that the Geth have to prove sentience, I then suggest that every race be force to prove sentience. If they cannot to my satisfaction, then they are my playthings to kill, enslave, or abuse as I see fit.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 19 septembre 2010 - 06:03 .

[Mecha Tengu]

they are as much "people" as any other species in the galaxy.

[Kronner]

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
That being said, the Geth do have memory and they evolved so they are sentient. Period.

This.
And I agree with the rest of the post too, just did not want to quote the whole thing.

[Talogrungi]

Legion states that, individually, single Geth are no more complex than any other software and that it is just by sharing data that they achieve a communal level of sentience. So, I'm gonna say "sort of". A Geth is not sentient, but THE Geth (i.e. the race as a whole) are.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Talogrungi wrote...

Legion states that, individually, single Geth are no more complex than any other software and that it is just by sharing data that they achieve a communal level of sentience. So, I'm gonna say "sort of". A Geth is not sentient, but THE Geth (i.e. the race as a whole) are.

I believe Legion states that the individual programs that makes up his platform (1083 in all if i remember correctly) are no more complex than any other software. 

[Eldareus]

I think therefore I am, I feel therefore I am



There is no I in the Geth there is only We.



The Geth is an collective Consciousness, I would therefore not classify them as a race sentient beings since this no unique individual among their population. Also the consciousness can be altar with a simple press of a button. In addition Geth lack any emotions.



When one geth unit is deactivated does the other Geth unit's mourn it's loss?



When another geth unit is created do the other Geth unit's celebrate it's creation?



No, because their is no I. One active Geth is all that is needed to maintain the Geth consciousness since their is no unique individual Geth. Each Individual unit is nothing more that input device to serve the collective counsciousness.

[Talogrungi]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Legion states that, individually, single Geth are no more complex than any other software and that it is just by sharing data that they achieve a communal level of sentience. So, I'm gonna say "sort of". A Geth is not sentient, but THE Geth (i.e. the race as a whole) are.

I believe Legion states that the individual programs that makes up his platform (1083 in all if i remember correctly) are no more complex than any other software. 

Yup. Legion is a mobile platform populated by about a thousand Geth. Individually, they're not sentient but through their shared data, Legion is.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Eldareus wrote...

There is no I in the Geth there is only We.

The Geth is an collective Consciousness, I would therefore not classify them as a race sentient beings since this no unique individual among their population. Also the consciousness can be altar with a simple press of a button. In addition Geth lack any emotions.

Incorrect the Geth is not a collective Consciousness nor is it a hive mind, The Geth is all made up of individual programs, Tali actually goes to great length to explain to you why the Geth is not a collective Consciousness in Mass Effect 1.

When one geth unit is deactivated does the other Geth unit's mourn it's loss?

If a platform is destroyed then it's no loss, If a program is destroyed then something unique is lost.

I think therefore I am, I feel therefore I am

Funny because Descartes original quote is only : I think therefore i am - which is perfect validation for the Geth being sentient.

[Mooner911]

Sentient - sagatious (wise) - able to form conclusions via deduction

Sapient - concious with ability to sense - aware of self and environment

[DPSSOC]

Eldareus wrote...
No, because their is no I. One active Geth is all that is needed to maintain the Geth consciousness since their is no unique individual Geth. Each Individual unit is nothing more that input device to serve the collective counsciousness.

If your assertion is correct than how is their dissent amongst Legions programs durring his loyalty mission where some favour destruction vs rewrite.  Now I will say that the Geth possess a communal conciousness in that conciousness can only be achieved by their linking together, but this is not the Borg there are individual entities that maintain individual points of view.

[Gabey5]

they are self aware, have a society, dont want to die etc.. so yeah they are sentient

[Eldareus]

Do the Geth feel?

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Define feel. If you mean physical pain who knows but that doesn't mean anything, pain is nothing but an evolution that was built over millions of years of evolution to be aware of any damage that is being done to the body. Pain itself is ironically just an electical signal sent to the brain that then is translated into a negative stimuli and tells your body to react accordingly. I'd imagine the Geth have the same sense if they are shot at a signal notices damage sends it to whatever the center of a Geth's system is sees it as negative and has the body react accordingly.



If by feel you mean emotion that yes they do. They refer to the war with the Quarians as the "Mourning War" they rebuild the planets as a memorial to the quarians who died. Legion as an individual case obviously cares about Shepard because of the whole N7 armor thing.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

they're devices, not sentient life forms.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

geth are synthentic, man made... they're devices and not organically evolved..

their intelligence is artificial and not natural.

Modifié par FuturePasTimeCE, 19 septembre 2010 - 08:27 .

[lovgreno]

Cogito ergo sum - I think therefore I am. That is the only real reason we humans have to claim being sentinent. We belive we are intelligent, sapient and to an extent individual creatures so therefore we are just that. The Geth also belive they are inteligent and self aware creatures. Ergo, they are sapient from their point of wiew. A different kind of sentinent thinking than humans of course but that is irrelevant from their point of wiev.

Modifié par lovgreno, 19 septembre 2010 - 08:25 .

[FuturePasTimeCE]

lovgreno wrote...

Cogito ergo sum - I think therefore I am. That is the only real reason we humans have to claim being sentinent. We belive we are intelligent, sapient and to an extent individual creatures so therefore we are just that. The Geth also belive they are inteligent and self aware creatures. Ergo, they are sapient from their point of wiew. A different kind of sentinent thinking than humans of course but that is irrelevant from their point of wiev.

so if a robot thinks it's human, it has every right to claim it's so?

[General User]

The geth MUST be considered sentient, because… Legion plays video games.
 
It’s not as silly as it sounds. By playing those video games, and especially being repeatedly accused and exonerated for not having a “VI play assistance”, Legion is essentially passing the Turing Test every time they (Legion) go online. 
 
Unless you’re physically in the same room (or your senses are) as Legion there is no way to tell that they are a geth mobile platform, unless they choose to tell you.
 
Put another way, Legion has as much of a right to claim sentience in the Mass Effect world as anyone on these message boards does in real life.

[Niniva]

The thing with the Geth is eventually they became so advanced that they self-learned themselves into awareness. It happened without it ever being the intent, they did it themselves.

Since the Morning War, they have had hundreds of years to evolve further, and they have. Geth have their own architecture as seen with their ships and weapon designs. They've gotten to the point where they have even split into differing factions.

They are most definitely sentient. It might even be theorized that in that time, they've evolved some semblance of being able 'to feel'. Hence legion's odd fascination with wearing Shepards old armor.

Passive, sentimental value.

On a slightly related matter, I believe peace is the best option, given the Geth's most probable evolution into a full blown sapient species.

Modifié par Niniva, 19 septembre 2010 - 08:31 .