127 réponses à ce sujet

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

When some of those words and actions don't follow from anything close to their original programming, and seem to suggest self awareness rather than 'just' learning, then yes, they are proof. Based on your own criteria, prove you are sentient.

Over the internet? Impossible: I could well be a turing program. Even if I were to give you SSN, bank information, all sorts of electric proofs of identity, all it would prove was that I had access to such, not that it was actually me. (If there is a me, hahahahah ergerkerkirk user error spambot21948572 processing systemerror, must reboot...)

It comes down to an assumption and belief that I, certainly not spambot21948572, have free will to choose and decide my words, my actions, and even to some extents my morals, and that these are not chosen for me. If you disagree, than so be it: your math is then good for you, while mine is good for me, but they are not the same outcome.

The issue is that geth were told to reprogram themselves, and they did. Not because they magically gained sentience and a desire to do so, but that was what they were told to do in the first place.

Pardon? Where is your evidence that the Quarians handed over functions such as central planning? Geth were also intended for dangerous assignments such as military duty. Are you now going to try to say they were also to be in charge of foreign relations? Replacing workers is a long ways from replacing management. If they were replacing management, then would there really have been a slavery issue? I mean, you don't normally appoint slaves to oversee you.

Pardon pardon? I don't recal saying central planning. Though, all things considered, it's a logical thing to do: the Alliance, after all, handles much of its administration by VI. What's better to oversee the work of VI than VI, who don't demand exorberant bonuses, and have the attention to detail, the technical expertise, and endless patience to do so, all without any paychecks or hazard concerns (which, of course, they could handle themselves)? An organic manager would have to rely on the system to do its own monitoring to tell if something was wrong, and if that breaks down... well, the reason the Geth suceded was because they were so integrated into Quarian society on all levels.

Slaves, in the end, did anything their masters wanted them to do, from menial labor to supervision to fighting. The level of responsibilities depended on the system and the slave, but remained slavery all the same.

Please cite evidence to back up your opinion. They were designed to adapt to the operation of different equipment in wide varieties of situations. That is not the same order as 'develop yourselves.'

That the Geth obeyed Quarian commands one year and not the next? Quarian history and the Morning War, at which point the Geth refused to be shut off (whereas before they had remained obedient, non-independent machines). You can talk to Tali about it, and she'll tell you that the Quarians never intended it to happen, whereas they did intend to the Geth to improve themselves and that the Geth did so in ways the Quarians didn't intend or anticipate.

Which, of course, is the problem with any programing error: the machine does what it's code tells it to do, not what you intend for it to do, and the geth grew too much and too fast and not under Quarian direction. In the Quarian case, this was really, really bad.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 19 septembre 2010 - 11:28 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

So because they were "told" to attain intellegence they aren't? So if I was told to go pratice football and got really good at it, I wouldn't be in a way? Oversimplified I know, but the point stands. All intellegence as we know it has started from nothing, why is the way the Geth attained it any less than the way of the organics?

[Kelgair]

Do Geth dream of electric sheep?

[Dean_the_Young]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So because they were "told" to attain intellegence they aren't? So if I was told to go pratice football and got really good at it, I wouldn't be in a way? Oversimplified I know, but the point stands. All intellegence as we know it has started from nothing, why is the way the Geth attained it any less than the way of the organics?

Except you are already intelligent when told to get good at something, and a computer isn't. And if there's one things that computers have taught us, it's that they can know and gather quite a lot of information without anything resembling free will. Computers aren't sentient because they are told to gain information: they aren't sentient because their actions are dictated by their programming.





With all curtosey and respect due, I feel like it is best if I drop out for now. 

[PsyrenY]

Moiaussi wrote...

Actually any such thing said by Legion is just bad writing.

10 Print "hi"

Is a program. Progams used to predict the weather are rather more complex. Any program designed to adapt to the operation of  a wide variety of complex machinery, in a wide variety of tasks, in the field, safely, is going to be rather a lot more complex yet.

He says that each Geth program is the equivalent of a VI. VIs are already pretty complex (e.g. Avina), but none approach the level of an AI.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 20 septembre 2010 - 12:32 .

[Zan51]

If the Geth have the imagination to foresee a future for themselves, and work toward it, that is sentience in my book. It may feel uncomfortable to me, but that is irrelevant to the issue at hand. They are sentient and sapient.

Modifié par Zan51, 20 septembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Over the internet? Impossible: I could well be a turing program. Even if I were to give you SSN, bank information, all sorts of electric proofs of identity, all it would prove was that I had access to such, not that it was actually me. (If there is a me, hahahahah ergerkerkirk user error spambot21948572 processing systemerror, must reboot...)

It comes down to an assumption and belief that I, certainly not spambot21948572, have free will to choose and decide my words, my actions, and even to some extents my morals, and that these are not chosen for me. If you disagree, than so be it: your math is then good for you, while mine is good for me, but they are not the same outcome.

Or in person. Your 'proof' seems to consist of you stating that you are organic, therefore must be sentient. Prove you are by some other objective criteria.

The issue is that geth were told to reprogram themselves, and they did. Not because they magically gained sentience and a desire to do so, but that was what they were told to do in the first place.

But they weren't told any such thing. There is no evidence that they were told any such thing, at least not intentionally other than in the very limited context of adapting to specific duties.

Humans are told by instinct, but what is that but genetic progamming?

Pardon pardon? I don't recal saying central planning. Though, all things considered, it's a logical thing to do: the Alliance, after all, handles much of its administration by VI. What's better to oversee the work of VI than VI, who don't demand exorberant bonuses, and have the attention to detail, the technical expertise, and endless patience to do so, all without any paychecks or hazard concerns (which, of course, they could handle themselves)? An organic manager would have to rely on the system to do its own monitoring to tell if something was wrong, and if that breaks down... well, the reason the Geth suceded was because they were so integrated into Quarian society on all levels.

Slaves, in the end, did anything their masters wanted them to do, from menial labor to supervision to fighting. The level of responsibilities depended on the system and the slave, but remained slavery all the same.

Pardon indeed. On the one hand you claim that the Geth were intended to not just build their own quarters, but to choose where and to operate completely without outside guidance, yet seem to think they would do so under some sort of orders. Bit of a contradiction there.

You also have not cited any actual evidence of any such.

That the Geth obeyed Quarian commands one year and not the next? Quarian history and the Morning War, at which point the Geth refused to be shut off (whereas before they had remained obedient, non-independent machines). You can talk to Tali about it, and she'll tell you that the Quarians never intended it to happen, whereas they did intend to the Geth to improve themselves and that the Geth did so in ways the Quarians didn't intend or anticipate.

Which, of course, is the problem with any programing error: the machine does what it's code tells it to do, not what you intend for it to do, and the geth grew too much and too fast and not under Quarian direction. In the Quarian case, this was really, really bad.

Actually the Geth never stopped obeying commands per se. One mobile unit questioned the purpose of its existance. There is nothing said about any accompanying general strike. The Geth were never deliberately programmed to question their purpose.

In the Quarian case this didn't turn out to be bad until after the Quarians attempted a mass destruction of all Geth.

And Tali never says anything about the Geth being intended to imporve themselves. She says that the Quarians kept trying to make them better for their intended purpose, and unintentionally one day the incremental change tipped them over past being VI's to being AI's. The Quarians reacted badly and paid the price. The Geth continued to evolve from there on their own.

You yourself use the term 'they grew.'

[Heavensrun]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I don't know if they are sapient. However, they claim they are sapient so I suggest that we would have to prove that they aren't sapient rather than they have to prove that they are.

If we insist that the Geth have to prove sentience, I then suggest that every race be force to prove sentience. If they cannot to my satisfaction, then they are my playthings to kill, enslave, or abuse as I see fit.

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.  If they profess to be sapient, it's up to them to prove it.

Considering they choose to self-determine their future by warring with their creators, and frequently exhibit intelligence, self-awareness, and creativity, I don't really see how their sentience can be in question, personally.

[Moiaussi]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Actually any such thing said by Legion is just bad writing.

10 Print "hi"

Is a program. Progams used to predict the weather are rather more complex. Any program designed to adapt to the operation of  a wide variety of complex machinery, in a wide variety of tasks, in the field, safely, is going to be rather a lot more complex yet.

He says that each Geth program is the equivalent of a VI. VIs are already pretty complex (e.g. Avina), but none approach the level of an AI.

The original post I was responding to was saying that individual geth programs are 'no more complex than any other program.' That statement is prejudicial in the same way as comparasons of the Geth to toasters.

Comparing Geth to toasters is like saying 'Humans are no more complex than their pet dogs' or 'humans are no smarter than their pet dogs.' In the case of some humans that may seem arguably true, but generally as a species? Not so much.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I think the game makes it pretty clear they are sapient . Doesn't the Codex even mention they are? Just because the fact that their group sapience is different from ours does not make them non sentient.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 20 septembre 2010 - 04:20 .

[HazelrahFiver]

I waited to re-step into this argument for a little bit.  Wanted to see what was said first this time.

Niniva wrote...
They are most definitely sentient. It might even be theorized that in that time, they've evolved some semblance of being able 'to feel'. Hence legion's odd fascination with wearing Shepards old armor.

Passive, sentimental value.

On a slightly related matter, I believe peace is the best option, given the Geth's most probable evolution into a full blown sapient species.

While we don't actually have any idea as to why the piece of N7 armor is attached to 'Legion', the possibiltiy of sentimental attachment would drastically change my opinion.  It would help qualify them as sentient beings.

I also agree that peace is the best option for those two 'races', and I side with the Geth when it comes to rewriting the heretics.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
Define feel. If you mean physical
pain who knows but that doesn't mean anything, pain is nothing but an
evolution that was built over millions of years of evolution to be aware
of any damage that is being done to the body. Pain itself is ironically
just an electical signal sent to the brain that then is translated into
a negative stimuli and tells your body to react accordingly. I'd
imagine the Geth have the same sense if they are shot at a signal
notices damage sends it to whatever the center of a Geth's system is
sees it as negative and has the body react accordingly.

That's the real trick right there though.  They aren't feeling a thing, and won't, ever.  The signal they recieve is in no way organic.  They feel the same way that a car with a bullet hole feels.  They are far more complex and can process the 'injury', noting that repairs are required, but they do not 'hurt' and do not 'care'.

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...
If by
feel you mean emotion that yes they do. They refer to the war with the
Quarians as the "Mourning War" they rebuild the planets as a memorial to
the quarians who died. Legion as an individual case obviously cares
about Shepard because of the whole N7 armor thing.

We do not know in the slightest why either of these things have happened.  Rebuilding as a memorial is not exact, because the Geth are unproven to actually 'care' about such a thing.  They could be doing so for any number of AI reasons.  As stated above the N7 armor is entirely in the dark as far as the reason behind it being attached to 'Legion'.  I suspect it is not emotionally based at all (if it is, as I said, my opinion is open to change on this whole matter.)

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...
That being said, the Geth do have memory and they evolved so they are sentient. Period.

Evolved?  That's a choice word.  I would argue vehemently that they have not evolved.  That word has become far too common place in modern society (ours, not ME's).  It churns my stomach when businesses state that their policies or products have 'evolved over time'.  Redundant and no, they have not.  Only organic matter can evolve, and it takes millions of years in most cases to occur.  The Geth build atop preceeding structural process.  They update their machine parts, creating a better version as the years have gone by.  I could throw out any number of examples here, but attaching a wheel appartus to the mouses we use with our computers is not evolution, and neither is what the Geth have been doing.  Evolution can not occur in a machine shop, and it can not occur with the Geth.

DPSSOC wrote...
Human beings (in fact all living things) are nothing more than biological machines.

This
is unfortunately another overly used concept in current society.  The
label of machine to what human beings are is an unfair comparison that
doesn't quite make sense.  Yes, some signals have electronic signatures
and yes we are built like many of the creations our race has achieved. 
We are, however, biological.  There is a difference between having parts
resembling machines and being an actual machine.  The greatest thing to
point out at this moment is that the very concept of machines is
something humanity created.

Moiaussi wrote...
Tool use is just another form of evolution.
We have pretty much reached our peak of natural evolution, and now are
extending our capabilities radically via tools, including prothetics, in
ME, cybernetics, gene therapy, etc.

We have not stopped
evolving.  Even if we have, we could never know that.  Evolution isn't
something that is so easily trackable.  Forty thousand years from now we
could have three-armed children born at a 95% ratio (or any other
unique example).  Our race will see millions of years from now (if we
survive that long at all) what steps we have taken in evolution.

Dean_the_Young wrote...
What the Geth consider themselves, and
what they are, are not necessarily the same thing. A program can
conclude it is alive or anything else it might, but self-categorization
is not inherently true or accurate, any more than a person with
delusions of godhood is, in fact, a god.

This is a terrific point.  Thank you for mentioning it.  Especially with machines that have been built, claiming an identity does not make it so.  This very day we, humanity, can build machines that are supposed to entirely take the place of workers at varying professions.  Does that make them human?  Hell, we can build machines that could easily enough state they are human, but we know they are lying.  Why are so many of us so quick to accept the Geth as anything but what they are?  Is it because they say so?  Is it because you are affected having grown up with videogames and robots at the forefront of our, humanity's, progression?  We are sympathizing with something we have created and even with something that is non-existent (the Geth), because we are led to do so by our biological brains in a manner of sentimentalism.  It's a fascinating study, and makes me wish I was a psychologist.

DPSSOC wrote...
But the Geth do evolve, this is evidenced by
Tali's statement in ME1 that the Geth have changed from what they were
300 years ago.  They may be slightly more deliberate about it but is the
evolution of dogs any less valid because we deliberately breed out/in
certain traits?

Yes.  What has been occurring with
canines at human hands is not evolution.  That is eugenics, and it is
entirely unnaturral.  (Please note that I am not saying it is
necessarily bad, just as I am not saying the Geth are necessarily bad).

Oh, and Uber Rod, I am now nervous about your cat attacking various continents.

[Terraneaux]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Now I've heard this reasoning before and while it is certainly sound it also disqualifies humans as well as any kind of artificial intelligence.  Human beings (in fact all living things) are nothing more than biological machines.  Our thought processes are simply naturally occurring act/reaction programs and we are dreadfully predictable. 

This is only a rational step if it is true, which it may well not be. Debates about free will aside for the moment (do our minds allow us the ability to choose, or our are thoughts all pre-determined by the complex equations of actions/reactions?), the simplest test of this would be the behavior of clones: if humans are nothing more than biological machines, then beings with identical/nigh identical biology should act identical or close to it. Cloned animals, however, such as certain cloned pets, have been known to have entirely different personalities than their originator even with the same owner. Despite identical genetics and similar environments, the outputs were different: why, we don't know.

This cloned animal argument is entirely specious.

[Zan51]

You are forgetting the whole Nature v Nurture stuff. A clone will have a totally different upbringing from the original creature. You cannot duplicate what in the environment shapes them to be who they are. And similar is not good enough. Even identical twins brought up in totally different homes develop differently. If one was placed with a criminal type family, it would grow up a criminal most likely as studies on twins separated at birth for adoption have shown..

[Fishy]

Gabey5 wrote...

they are self aware, have a society, dont want to die etc.. so yeah they are sentient

Ants don't want to die either ..
Ants have a society also .. They even have a queen
They know they exist.

and they're not sentient.
Being sentient it's more complicated than this.

and no we're not *machine* or whatever cheap ghetto term found on Wikepedia you have discovered
.Also if you really beleive you understand everyone and know how they will react .. You seriously need to consult..To discover about yourself.

geez i'm funny.

Being sentient mean you're unique within a species and intelligent.Very complex stuff.
Machine aren't sentient.Because they aren't unique . They simply are.Just like ants.

Each Human's unique .. geth aren't sentient has a unity .. But has a WHOLE THEY'RE .. Just like ants  .Killing 1 ants does not matter but killing every ants you murdered them.But killing 1 human .. You just killed something unique. Because each human are different.Thus we're sentient.

Modifié par Suprez30, 20 septembre 2010 - 06:28 .

[khevan]

This is a debate that will not have a satisfying conclusion for either side.  It will continue, much like the Paragon / Renegade debates that have been around since ME1 was newly released. 

[/prophet]

Seriously, though, it all boils down to your own particular viewpoint on what defines sapience, and whether or not a constructed organism is even capable of sapience and sentience.  I have my own opinions, but I think I'll keep them to myself, considering that it will neither add to the debate in any meaningful way, or end the debate in any form whatsoever.  It is interesting to see the reasonings people use to justify their particular viewpoints, however...

[stewie1974]

Geth are a collective intelligence... Killing one geth , is pretty much like killing one brain cell.

Killing the entire collective is akin to killing an entire brain....now if you consider that intelligence sapient depends greatly on your point of view.

Is it unique... well yes definitely there is no other collective consciousness like it.... ((In the ME universe, that we've seen))

Can it "break its programming" ...I.E does it have "free will" or is its actions decided by its software.. can it learn and adopt other view points? ((with out being brainwashed or reprogramed))... If it can be "reasoned with" then it's sapient.

An ant after all can't decide to be lazy and idle. It will perform its tasks with out ((apparently))  being able to decide not to... it will react to enviromental stimuli... ((route is blocked, go elsewhere)) but it won't ever decide ... hey queen, I just don't feel like doing that for you...

Modifié par stewie1974, 20 septembre 2010 - 07:31 .

[Kelgair]

Suprez30 wrote...

Gabey5 wrote...

they are self aware, have a society, dont want to die etc.. so yeah they are sentient

Ants don't want to die either ..
Ants have a society also .. They even have a queen
They know they exist.

and they're not sentient.
Being sentient it's more complicated than this.

and no we're not *machine* or whatever cheap ghetto term found on Wikepedia you have discovered
.Also if you really beleive you understand everyone and know how they will react .. You seriously need to consult..To discover about yourself.

geez i'm funny.

Being sentient mean you're unique within a species and intelligent.Very complex stuff.
Machine aren't sentient.Because they aren't unique . They simply are.Just like ants.

Each Human's unique .. geth aren't sentient has a unity .. But has a WHOLE THEY'RE .. Just like ants  .Killing 1 ants does not matter but killing every ants you murdered them.But killing 1 human .. You just killed something unique. Because each human are different.Thus we're sentient.

You have a pet Dog, Cat and Ferrat. One day they all begin talking to you, with the ferrat being the one voice for all 3 (that you can understand). They all have their own thoughts and opinions, but the ferrat is the only one who can communicate with you. But, you freak. You kill the ferrat cause WTF! as a WHOLE they're just animals. We're sentient because we say we are, and if those dirty cats, dogs and ferrats say they are as well. Psh, they're just wrong!  ... /sarcasm

[Dean_the_Young]

Oh, so people don't agree with you. Suck it up and don't cry about spilt milk.

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 20 septembre 2010 - 09:32 .

[Zan Mura]

The premiss presented in the OP can be applied to any organic's intellect just as well. A human mind is also nothing but a reaction, a number of programs constructed by their genes and all the events since and before the day they were born, which effectively build their personality, and the information, skills and abilities - in other words, options and priorities - available to them. One could argue that ANY form of intellect is nothing more than a reaction that with sufficient data can be predicted perfectly, provided you also know all of the events they will have to react to beforehand.

So in my opinion, once the Geth reached the point where they could make independent decisions and learn new information beyond any living organic's ability to predict - regardless of whether or not predicting them would be possible to someone with a higher intellect than ours, and more data -, they became sentient on the same level as we are.

[AntiChri5]

Geth are people too.

[Moiaussi]

Heavensrun wrote...

The burden of proof is on the one making the claim.  If they profess to be sapient, it's up to them to prove it.

Considering they choose to self-determine their future by warring with their creators, and frequently exhibit intelligence, self-awareness, and creativity, I don't really see how their sentience can be in question, personally.

No, the burdon of proof is on the accuser. When the accuser says 'You aren't sentient, therefore you have no right to a defense since any you put up is moot,'  defense becomes problematic.

And their creators started the war. The Geth 'woke up' and asked the purpose of their existance, and their creators issued an order to destroy all Geth. The Quarians fired the first shot, not the Geth.