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[General User]

NewMessageN00b wrote...

Neofelis Nebulosa wrote...

HazelrahFiver wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...
Human emotions are also logical. They are stimulus responses to stimuli that are sufficiently common for the responses to become instinctive. Among other things this is why emotions can be invoked with good acting, both simulated (on the part of the actor) and invoked (in the responses of the audience).

Emotions aren't always logical.
The two do not go hand in hand.  The Geth do not have pure reactions that logic cannot interrupt.  There decisions are never out of rage, love or empathy.  This can be argued if you like, but it is how I see their world based on what we have been shown by Bioware.  In ME3 if this changes (as it easily could with the N7 armor) then I will no longer argue that the Geth could have emotion or not.

Biologically spoken, emotions are completely logical as already depicted various times. Feelings like rage, love, etc. are just as simply reactions to stimula and saved memory like everything else.

Pretty much like Geth have various programs in a single platform, humans have emotion, audio, visual, motor, logic and whatnot processes. 


<.<

>.>

Damn, we're Geth!

Here’s an interesting question: If someone on this message board was a robot and not a human, how would you tell? Could you tell?

I’m not sure I could, Legion’s fellow “Galaxy of Fantasy” players can’t. If two things are indistinguishable (organic and geth intelligence in this case) there is no logical reason to treat them as distinct

[Nightwriter]

The writers clearly intend for the geth to be both sentient and sapient. Isn't that what's important?

If the writers themselves anthropomorphize the geth, why shouldn't we?

[Nightwriter]

Fine. Then I’ll say this.

Sentience is not a lack of predictable computational behavior. It is merely such a complex interwoven network of programs, thoughts and thought patterns that behavior appears unpredictable.

By this definition the geth are quite sentient.

By the opposing argument’s definition of “robot”, humans are robots.

I trust this shows I am in agreement with your explanation on the previous page.

[MaaZeus]

Geth are not sentient lifeforms, they are sentient machines/synthetics. But yes, they are very sentient/sapient.

While they were originally desigend to be VI, Quarians pretty much accidentally made them a special kind of AI by allowing self adjusting and gathering more processing power and intelligence as they group up. The moment they started question the nature of their own existence, which they were not exactly programmed to do, showed signs of sapience and ability to think outside of their programming. And when they responded hostility with hostility which again was not part of their original programming, its obvious they even care about their own existence. They dont want to die and fight fiercely to prevent it.

And they keep learning new things and make logical conclusions out of them and react to it. And they have evolved from the time of Morning War and even developed things of their own. They even managed to make a new branch of technology that is totally alien to organics technology that strictly follows paths set by Reapers.


So yes, I think Geth are very sapient. A very different kind of sapience from organics and even from other AIs, but they are self-aware and capable to think outside of their own core programming (machine equivalent of instincts?).

Modifié par MaaZeus, 20 septembre 2010 - 06:32 .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Here's something that I find sort of funny that we've been debating on whether or not the Geth are sentient/sapient yet I don't think there would be any such argument if I were to make this claim.



The Geth are more humane then we are or any other specie in the galaxy (The core Geth not the Heritics) Think about it the Geth know that the entire galaxy hates them for no true reason besides that they are different and yet the Geth don't want to fight with us even though they could probably do a pretty good job of it. They could have wiped out the Quarians forever if they wanted to but they let them live. (Would we as people allow another specie to survive it it tried to kill us for no reason at all?) They are understanding and they don't discriminate against eachother or other life they have alot more respect for life than most organics do in the ME universe. The Geth's moral code seems to be what Legion said "Each specie should be allowed to self-determinate"



So ask yourself this if they are that accepting and understanding of other beings who hate them and want only to understand than doesn't that make them as sentient as any human has ever been?

[Flamewielder]

How do you program creativity? Answer: you can't. Geth creativity is show in-game in the form of Geth Armory weapons like the Pulse Rifle and the Plasma Shotgun. This creativity arises from the gestalt AI that arose from the basic runtimes programmed and designed by the Quarians.



As an analogy: a neuron is a binary tranmsmitter. It is either excited, or it isn't. A circuit is either opne, or closed. You can command muscles through electrical stimulation. The finer you can make the bionic interface, the finer motor control you get. The body is an organic machine.



If the platform is no longer relevant, and can be either organic or synthetic, then the mind becomes your only criteria of sentience, defined as self-awareness...



Geth are a unique, very different intelligence that that of organic individuals. Their reactions are not programmed like a mech's. Some of their basic processes and runtimes will be the same as a mech: fight-flight reflexes, body control, targeting, threat recognition/identification (FoF), etc... and this is the level where the hacker can interfere. Just as Cerberus could have "hacked" Shepard had Miranda installed her chip... Shepard's higher thought-processes, however, would have taken a fair bit of brainwashing/torture to be altered.



So the Geth are not even machines. They are a gestalt intelligence generated by simpler computational processes, just as human consciousness is a gestalt of electrochemical reactions in the complex circuitry of their brain.

[Nightwriter]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Here's something that I find sort of funny that we've been debating on whether or not the Geth are sentient/sapient yet I don't think there would be any such argument if I were to make this claim.

The Geth are more humane then we are or any other specie in the galaxy (The core Geth not the Heritics) Think about it the Geth know that the entire galaxy hates them for no true reason besides that they are different and yet the Geth don't want to fight with us even though they could probably do a pretty good job of it. They could have wiped out the Quarians forever if they wanted to but they let them live. (Would we as people allow another specie to survive it it tried to kill us for no reason at all?) They are understanding and they don't discriminate against eachother or other life they have alot more respect for life than most organics do in the ME universe. The Geth's moral code seems to be what Legion said "Each specie should be allowed to self-determinate"

So ask yourself this if they are that accepting and understanding of other beings who hate them and want only to understand than doesn't that make them as sentient as any human has ever been?

I'm definitely pro-geth, but I don't know if you could generalize them with a word like "humane".

They wiped out millions of quarians, they kill anyone who comes into their territory, they unleashed destruction on the Alarei.

The geth are kind of innocent in nature, and they value the sanctity of life and the freedom to self-determinate, but if something or someone gets in the way of their interests or their safety I don't think they would hesitate to destroy it.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Although they did wipe out billions of Quarians, I'm not sure how much the Geth have done since the Morning War. Legion seems to say that they rarely make contact with organics. Considering that Legion says "We are all Geth, and we have not met you," I think that every bad thing that Shepard encountered personally that geth did was done by the Heretics.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Nightwriter wrote...

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Here's something that I find sort of funny that we've been debating on whether or not the Geth are sentient/sapient yet I don't think there would be any such argument if I were to make this claim.

The Geth are more humane then we are or any other specie in the galaxy (The core Geth not the Heritics) Think about it the Geth know that the entire galaxy hates them for no true reason besides that they are different and yet the Geth don't want to fight with us even though they could probably do a pretty good job of it. They could have wiped out the Quarians forever if they wanted to but they let them live. (Would we as people allow another specie to survive it it tried to kill us for no reason at all?) They are understanding and they don't discriminate against eachother or other life they have alot more respect for life than most organics do in the ME universe. The Geth's moral code seems to be what Legion said "Each specie should be allowed to self-determinate"

So ask yourself this if they are that accepting and understanding of other beings who hate them and want only to understand than doesn't that make them as sentient as any human has ever been?

I'm definitely pro-geth, but I don't know if you could generalize them with a word like "humane".

They wiped out millions of quarians, they kill anyone who comes into their territory, they unleashed destruction on the Alarei.

The geth are kind of innocent in nature, and they value the sanctity of life and the freedom to self-determinate, but if something or someone gets in the way of their interests or their safety I don't think they would hesitate to destroy it.

They wiped out billions of Quarians because they were in a war with them. It was a war where one side was going to lose and lose badly, I don't blame the Geth for not losing the war. I give them credit for alowing the Quarians to leave even though they could have wiped out a real threat (They still want to destroy all the Geth) They allowed them to survive as a specie.

As for the Alarei... what would you do to a ship that was doing experiments on you trying to find a way of destroying your entire specie? The Geth defended themselves.

You have to remember that every specie hates the Geth so what would you have them do when a ship goes into their territory? Give them milk and cookies? Everyone knows that the Veil is Geth space if they go into than they're looking for trouble and I don't blame them for defending their territory when they go out of their way not to go into anyone elses space.

I said they are humane not pacifists they don't go out looking for trouble but when people actively try and destroy them or enter their territory then yes they are going to react just like any other specie in the universe.

[DPSSOC]

Ok from a few pages back (amazing how much you miss from one nights sleep and a day at work.

HazelrahFiver wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...
Human beings (in fact all living things) are nothing more than biological machines.

This
is unfortunately another overly used concept in current society.  The
label of machine to what human beings are is an unfair comparison that
doesn't quite make sense.  Yes, some signals have electronic signatures
and yes we are built like many of the creations our race has achieved. 
We are, however, biological.  There is a difference between having parts
resembling machines and being an actual machine.  The greatest thing to
point out at this moment is that the very concept of machines is
something humanity created.

What needs to be broken away from is the idea of "machine" refering to a physical constructed thing and move on to looking at it as a concept.  We have a power plant that consumes fuel to generate energy (digestive system), we have conduit networks to distribute that energy throughout the whole system (circulatory), we have gears, pulleys, pistons, hinges, etc that allow movement (joints, muscles, etc), finally we have a CPU that sends instructions to the different parts of the system (Brain/nervous system).  All of this is mounted on a substructure (skeleton) and placed inside a protective casing (skin).

The Geth are machines of metal and wires, we are machines of flesh and blood.

Suprez30 wrote...
and no we're not *machine* or whatever cheap ghetto term found on Wikepedia you have discovered
.Also if you really beleive you understand everyone and know how they will react .. You seriously need to consult..To discover about yourself.

See above about the machine thing and I never claimed I could predict everyone's reactions just people I know because I've observed their programming in action.  Think of it as music, if you listen to a song you could eventually learn to play it through repetition because it never changes.  Same thing with people, their behaviour doesn't change all it takes is enough repititions to figure it out.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 20 septembre 2010 - 09:21 .

[armass]

It's a different kind of sapience but yes they are.

[Fishy]

Each human are unique.Each time you meet someone , you meet something/someone unique.We're self aware of our self-identity and individuality.Unlike animals or monkey.


For instance   Vorcha  aren't sentient . Not because they can talk , that they're sentient.

Because they just are . Grunt say something to you at the beginning.He seek his own personality . The other tank grown Krogan are worthless to Okeer because they're not sentient.They're just Krogan.

[Fishy]

armass wrote...

It's a different kind of sapience but yes they are.

Exactly . Gethy alone aren't sapient . They're just machine.
But  their whole conciousness yes.If you destroy a geth , you're destroying a machine and not something unique .But  their though and program's actually a sentient being stuck into a non sapient machine.

[Anacronian Stryx]

I still wonder if the Geth completes their Dyson sphere like mega construct and upload all Geth into it what the result will be?



And was the Reaper being build at the collector base the one offered to the Heretics for their assistance?

[Zan51]

http://jhamrick.mit....1/01/sentience/
Very interesting arguments here from folk dealing with it daily. Worth reading, guys.

Remember, we evolved to Survive, and developing intelligence only gave us another tool to use to survive. A deep thought, that.

[Fishy]

Zan51 wrote...

http://jhamrick.mit....1/01/sentience/
Very interesting arguments here from folk dealing with it daily. Worth reading, guys.

Remember, we evolved to Survive, and developing intelligence only gave us another tool to use to survive. A deep thought, that.

Let's say i clone you and you don't know if you're the clone or the original . Are you just  the clone of the original or sentient and unique?.For me a sand worm it's just that  , a sand worm.

Human still have instinct and it's has nothing to do with sapience.Sure we evolved like every damn creature on earth. But that different .If we're really monkey why monkey are still monkey?So me i don't believe we're  evolved monkey but human being.Even if you clone me , my clone won't be me . Because i am the only me .If you don't agree with me go to  hell.We're all different.

[Nightwriter]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

They wiped out billions of Quarians because they were in a war with them. It was a war where one side was going to lose and lose badly, I don't blame the Geth for not losing the war. I give them credit for alowing the Quarians to leave even though they could have wiped out a real threat (They still want to destroy all the Geth) They allowed them to survive as a specie.

As for the Alarei... what would you do to a ship that was doing experiments on you trying to find a way of destroying your entire specie? The Geth defended themselves.

You have to remember that every specie hates the Geth so what would you have them do when a ship goes into their territory? Give them milk and cookies? Everyone knows that the Veil is Geth space if they go into than they're looking for trouble and I don't blame them for defending their territory when they go out of their way not to go into anyone elses space.

I said they are humane not pacifists they don't go out looking for trouble but when people actively try and destroy them or enter their territory then yes they are going to react just like any other specie in the universe.

I'm not saying that there's no explanation for what they did, or that it was even wrong.

I'm saying I think geth have the capacity to be quite inhumane, purely because of their ability to rationalize, and because of the great rift between organics and synthetics and our ability to understand each other.

[Moiaussi]

Suprez30 wrote...

Each human are unique.Each time you meet someone , you meet something/someone unique.We're self aware of our self-identity and individuality.Unlike animals or monkey.

The Geth do not consciously designate individuality simply because their communications are so efficient that there is no formal need for names. It is still one Geth, one vote. If there is no individuality, how can that occur? So far, it has never occured to any given Geth to vote twice, just as it didn't occur to them that the Heretics might act against them. Even so, the Heretics don't think the same way as the Orthedox Geth, and until the Heretics did plot to act against the rest, that was accepted. Thus we know that as long as any given individual doesn't actively threaten the majority, individuality and divergence does occur and is accepted.

For instance   Vorcha  aren't sentient . Not because they can talk , that they're sentient. Because they just are .

Not sure what you are saying there... are you arguing that Vorcha are sentient? Or that they aren't? And if you are arguing that they are not, shouldn't that be a separate thread?

 Grunt say something to you at the beginning.He seek his own personality . The other tank grown Krogan are worthless to Okeer because they're not sentient.They're just Krogan.

Actually he said they weren't perfect, not that they weren't sentient. In fact, he tells Shepard that they are acceptable as troops, and that an inability to lead them in the part of the merc leader is the problem. If they were considered 'perfect Krogan', their tank training would have continued, just as Grunt's did. Most of them were killed by mercs outside and all but one of the rest were killed by gas inside. The one outside seemed to have some semblance of 'self' but was 'waiting.' It will be interesting actually if it shows up in ME3...

[PWENER]

They are.



/thread

[EmperorSahlertz]

So Dean_the_Yougner how do you define sentience and sapience? (Some schools of thaught differentiate the two. The difference between intellegence and wisdom respectively). It sounds like, becuase they were told to evovle you dequalify them as truely sentient. Granted I have my doubts about their sapience, but I have no doubt about them being sentient.

[JPXD]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So Dean_the_Yougner how do you define sentience and sapience? (Some schools of thaught differentiate the two. The difference between intellegence and wisdom respectively). It sounds like, becuase they were told to evovle you dequalify them as truely sentient. Granted I have my doubts about their sapience, but I have no doubt about them being sentient.

The geth were not "told" to evolve. They just did.

[EmperorSahlertz]

JPXD wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

So Dean_the_Yougner how do you define sentience and sapience? (Some schools of thaught differentiate the two. The difference between intellegence and wisdom respectively). It sounds like, becuase they were told to evovle you dequalify them as truely sentient. Granted I have my doubts about their sapience, but I have no doubt about them being sentient.

The geth were not "told" to evolve. They just did.

In which case they are even more sentient, in my eyes at least.