171 réponses à ce sujet

[Mad Method]

From Penny Arcade - [Comic] [Article]

A Truly Fascinating Phenomenon
Friday, November 6 2009 - 12:00 AM
by: Tycho



We spent quite a bit of time trying to determine how we felt about the Dragon Age situation described in today's comic - a character appears in your camp who offers a questline that is only available in downloadable content. The character is literally a salesman. Is this an act of abominable evil? Or is the mass of this evil sufficient to unfold itself - like a Popple - into a creature capable of love?

The very moment that the Collector's Edition became available for purchase, I did so. You might imagine that, having done an eight page project for the title, we might have received some kind of consideration in this respect - but as a site that does not offer numerical scores, indeed, as a site which finds the entire notion of numerical scores abhorrent, we don't manifest near the top of that particular queue. But there's never been a possibility that I would not purchase Dragon Age, from the moment we saw it in an elemental form at the Electronic Entertainment Expo five years ago. Then, in my mind, I set aside an inviolate amount which would always be oriented toward this purpose.

We are apparently at a point now where the Collector's Edition is not the ultimate manifestation of a game. Modern Warfare 2, which is the most important product ever, has offered up a Veteran Edition, a Hardened Edition, a Prestige Edition, and presumably a Tumescent Edition. Back when I purchased my Dragon Age, though, I think I had a reasonable expectation that it would be a definitive product. A trailer emerged for Warden's Keep, and something scratched at the base of my skull when it did so, something about what version would or wouldn't include it, but I felt confident that this didn't apply to me.

It turns out that this content comes with the quote Digital Deluxe edition - which they might consider calling the Complete Edition, or perhaps The Entire Game Edition, as it includes the Entire Game. You know perfectly well that I don't have a problem with the concept of "premium" game additions, I'm unique among amateur industry observers in that I don't ladle up populist bullshit in an effort to make myself appear a man of the people. I like buying things. But jeezy creezy, guys. The timing, execution, and decision making here are fucking cavalier.

Like Oblivion, the scope of the Dragon Age experience provides some built-in protection from assertions that the base experience is incomplete without the content. There was a time when companies demurred when discussing downloadable content at launch, other than the most routine assurances that maps - of some kind - would be forthcoming. Now, we've reached a new threshold, where Day One DLC and the promise of Two Years of unrelenting premium offers are the goal - where pitchmen emerge unbidden in our role-playing games and try sell us valor a la carte.

Incredible.

(CW)TB out.

Modifié par Mad Method, 11 novembre 2009 - 07:41 .

[Eoweth]

And now EA is shoving "Bioware Points" down our throat so that we get to buy those in order to get DLC on PC which for at least a few titles was free on PC but not consoles.



To be honest the amount of money whoring EA is doing is really really starting to diminish the awesome that is DA:O.

[Pseudo310]

Have you guys seen the follow-up news post about it? Tycho has expressed more sympathy than this post indicates.

[Mad Method]

Personally I don't like having salesmen in my game. Not to mention, Warden's Keep simply isn't worth the 7 USD Bioware is asking for it.

[Mad Method]

Follow-up from Penny Arcade - [Article]

At The Midnight Hour
Monday, November 9 2009 - 12:00 AM
by: Tycho

[snip]

I spent much of the weekend thinking about the in-game sales force Bioware leveraged in Dragon Age, mostly while playing Dragon Age itself, and I'm not unsympathetic to the challenge they face. They make games which take a billion years to develop, and represent the output of more than a hundred sentients, but when their competitors make a game where you shoot nazi zombies they're somehow able to parley that into tens of millions of dollars in DLC. Bioware is in the business of making more complex, more sophisticated entertainment and then harvesting a diminished return, which ain't no kinda bidness at'all.

Narrative games don't slot as easily into the DLC model. I complained about this with Mass Effect's DLC - and I loved Mass Effect. But I'd already played through it, and I don't need an expansion after the fact. I loved Fallout 3, as well, and I never bought any of the DLC. Offers for both games are out of sequence, from a narrative perspective. Even if I wanted to see this content, which I do, something with an almost physical presence keeps me from revisiting a story I've completed. Fallout 3's Broken Steel campaign - which behaved more like a traditional campaign expansion, a la Brood War - is probably the right model, but I still didn't bite. I like games too much. I had already moved on.

I think they handled it poorly this time, but there are workable models out there from people who are trying to manage some of the same problems. There's no question that the episodic model is impossible for most to adhere to, but Telltale sells the entire "arc" of the new Monkey Island as a chunk. That's all these pieces of content are, Episodes. That's more or less what I'd recommend here - "arcs" of content over the promised two year span, that I can choose to buy altogether. Let me sidestep the piecemeal aspect and commit; make one decision, and not five. That's what I thought I was doing with the Collector's Edition, more or less. There's a smart solution for this, a wholly new one, one that sews together the major franchise releases with hooky through lines of authentic storytelling. Offers which could never be mistaken for the one-off novelties that currently make up the bulk of the space.

(CW)TB out.

Modifié par Mad Method, 12 novembre 2009 - 10:32 .

[Molton4]

I thought DA:O was a great game, But them placing that "Virtual Sale's man" in the game is just wrong. You can call me a conspiracist, but i believe that was placed there by EA to trying to get some cash out of our loyalty we have for Bioware.

[Fershizzel]

Boooooooooo Hiiisssssssss to the DLC. i understand that cost go up in life but this just seems cheap and dirty. I feel Violated. all the games are trending this way and I dont like it. If they just said that this game was $65 or $70 or whatever i would have felt better about it. in a couple of months or less they will be trying to charge for content the users created. Look if your going to make a game i want the entire game from start. in 10 years i dont want to buy a half of a game and get the other half from DLC thats a scam and BS

[Dragon Age1103]

I don't see the problem if you don't like it or feel it is a rip off just don't buy it problem solved. $7 for an hour of gameplay seems unfair but I'm enjoying the chest for storage & my Commander armor so no real complaints here.

[Molton4]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

I don't see the problem if you don't like it or feel it is a rip off just don't buy it problem solved. $7 for an hour of gameplay seems unfair but I'm enjoying the chest for storage & my Commander armor so no real complaints here.

i would say the same thing, if there was a "virtual Sales man" pestering me everytime i was at camp and its not like you can just kill him or ask him to leave. Trust me ive tried both:?

[Gen-An]

The DLC part comes absolutely by EA emp0rium mandat0ry I asume...

[Pawel_P_73]

I will buy all DLC and second copy of the game as well to contribute to Bioware's success. What would I play without them and simillar companies? Games for mindless majority?

[Wolfva2]

Eoweth wrote...

And now EA is shoving "Bioware Points" down our throat so that we get to buy those in order to get DLC on PC which for at least a few titles was free on PC but not consoles.

To be honest the amount of money whoring EA is doing is really really starting to diminish the awesome that is DA:O.

Heh, that's the same arguement some people use for being obese..."I can't help it!  McDonalds is SHOVING Big Macs down my throat!!!"  No one is shoving anything down anyone's throat.  It's optional content and you won't suffer if you don't take it.  At least, I know I haven't suffered and I refuse to buy it.  Then again, ya never know, maybe EA's goons haven't gotten around to kicking in my door and busting my kneecaps for not getting it yet.  Or, maybe I'll wake up and there'll be a monitorless computer laying in bed ala the GodFather.

Question for Mad Method; are you Tycho, or just passing on information? 

[eastoreispos]

The questgiver doesn't 'pester' you, as stated above. He simply sits quietly in your camp until you decide to talk to him. On that note however, Warden's Keep was an ABSOLUTE joke. If I wasn't caught up in DAO hype at the time and thinking with a clear head I would never have bought it.



7$ for an area you visit once, which takes 20 minutes to clear. 30 if you have trouble finding the clues for the sword. As far as the 'powers', as a warrior I used them once. The storage space? What's the point when in the first 3 hours of gameplay you can have an inventory up to 90 slots? Warden's Keep was shameful profit whoring, and because all of us were caught up in the first week of DAO fever, we bought it.



If their future DLC is in any way similar to WK, then I say the hell with that. Same goes for playing DLC BEFORE the final events at Denerim. As was mentioned before, the story is over, why would I want to go back and live out some middle piece of the tale that should've probably been included with the main story?



Sadly, DAO seems lackluster to me in comparison to NWN 1 and 2. Aside from the amazing story, everything else is pretty superficial. It lacks the depth to characters that NWN has, and I don't mean storylines, I mean stats and abilities. If you don't believe me, compare the number of abilities and the character creation/level up processes in NWN 2 and DAO.



I'm not saying I hate DAO, quite the contrary I was actually moved by DAO's story and I don't remember a videogame ever doing that before. The characters are very well fleshed out and feel very alive. I simply feel that there's flaws in the game, which will hopefully be addressed with future DLC.



And don't get me started on stamina, absolutely terrible the way the mechanic works for an action rpg. Yes I know you can use stamina potions, but honestly, potion spam is the sign of a terrible game.

[apoc_reg]

Great comic but i couldnt give a crap about paying extra. damn the game can have plenty more of my money

... what i do care about is not being able to get back into my frigging castle/keep to finish that quest Grrrr

[Mad Method]

Wolfva2 wrote...

Question for Mad Method; are you Tycho, or just passing on information?

Definitely passing on information. I thought it deserved a discussion thread here.

[daem3an]

Pawel_P_73 wrote...
I will buy all DLC and second copy of the game as well to contribute to Bioware's success. What would I play without them and simillar companies? Games for mindless majority?

Sure, I like Bioware games too. I'm a huge fan, and I want to see more of them. They're one of the best and most talented teams in the business. That doesn't mean I have to like everything they ever do, and it looks like I may have to live with some really unfortunate decisions if I want to continue playing their games. Ii it worth it? We'll see. I haven't run into the salesman yet, but I think it's a pretty crappy move and part of an emerging trend I would not like to see continue. Not everyone shares this opinion but obviously a lot of people do.

Sometimes I think people act like Bioware is a charity set up to provide deep roleplaying experiences regardless of the cost. They know how to tell a good story, but in fact, they've said many times 'immersion' is simply not one of their priorities and likely never will be, and this in-game salesperson falls in line with that statement. As a business, Bioware will (and should) try to make their games as profitable as they can.

I support dlc, even on day one. It's just the methods that seem out of place. I love the game, have the CE, the CE game guide and bought Warden's Keep. Then I noticed the conscious decision to close Warden's Keep to the people who have paid for it after each character has used it once. Some won't care either way, but the simple question is, why was it done? If this was meant to encourage people to buy more dlc in the future by limiting the use of the content they purchase, it hasn't had the desired result on me. At least horse armor was good for more than one horse per playthrough.

Sure, as one dev said, it's only the price of two lattes and that only lasts 10 minutes. I'm not complaining about the price (although it doesn't make it right that coffee at Starbucks costs more than gas at the pump, and I make better-tasting coffee at home). I'll continue to buy dlc, or not, if I feel it's quality and worth the money. But as a smart consumer should, I'll hold off on buying any more until I'm sure of what the imposed limits are on its usage.

Modifié par daem3an, 12 novembre 2009 - 12:30 .

[eastoreispos]

The in-game salesman in DAO, while relatively un-intrusive in my opinion, could be the start of a worrisome trend. How long before companies start inserting characters promoting other companies. Don't be surprised one day to slay a dragon and find the Shield of Coke Refreshness +2, or to be exploring a dark dungeon and encounter a troll who's hide is covered by tattoos that say www.mykittygirl.com.



Or better yet, be sent on quests by King Toby Jones http://www.uniquedai...-legal-daycare/

[Wolf Northwind]

having steam-ified my DD Edition the moment it became available on steam (I love not having to maintain a physical copy of a game and had been waiting in hope for a steam release) I had all the DLC from the off - which meant that the NPC in question just slapped me in the face with a quest-filled mackrel and sent me on my merry, slightly fish-odorous way without me really giving it a second thought.



To be honest though, now that everyone is aware of the NPC's behaviour he can simply be avoided, and only interacted with when you have already purchased any DLC you may actually want via the interface from the start screen, where immersion is at it's least and therefore most resillient.



I dont in any way resent paying a few bucks for modular quests, so long as that remains a few bucks and does not become disproportionately expensive. In fact I will appreciate having any future DLC to play through when I get around to character 2 or 3, where having something entirely new to explore will truly add something to the games replayability.



So while I agree the NPC may be invasive, he is entirely avoidable.

[Eidolonn]

Molton4 wrote...

i would say the same thing, if there was a "virtual Sales man" pestering me everytime i was at camp and its not like you can just kill him or ask him to leave. Trust me ive tried both

No one is making you walk up to him and talk to him.  Ignore him.

[foxwood1084]

I named the dog barkspawn that is all.

[Raxxman]

it's not just the salesman at the camp,



Loot drops for a class that you can't obtain without DLC, and a random encounter gives you acess to a weapon but, only if you have DLC.



It's more intrusive than you make it out to be.

[eastoreispos]

If memory serves right crystals don't drop unless you have Shale installed. My first play-through didn't see any crystals drop until I installed Shale ( I waited because the servers were melting).  I also never got that encounter until WK was installed. 

Modifié par eastoreispos, 12 novembre 2009 - 01:24 .

[deastland0423]

People here are talking like $7 dollars is some huge amount of money - as if they chose to get Warden's Keep instead of make a car payment.



$7 is the price of a burger, fries and drink from a fast food chain. It's 1/2 the price of a movie ticket (1 hour of entertainment there). Jeebus...if you're struggling just to keep $7 in your pocket DLC from BioWare is the least of your problems.

[toggled]

I didn't have a problem with the in-game vendor. I went ahead and purchased Warden's Keep and would have been happy with the purchase, IF Warden's Keep had more content. But, it was only like an hour of play. I ended up with some armor which was much better than what I had previously, a weapon upgrade, a new skill line, and a little gold. It really felt like a bribe: we're sorry the module was so short, please take this "leet" gear and go away. I didn't purchase Warden's Keep for the leet gear, sorry.

[Nightmate]

I think the main issue is the storage space, without this you are not going to be able to keep all the items you need. Virtually every other game has released this as part of the content.

Complete rip off. Ive bought it, but as one poster commented its a choice. Its also a choice if you choose to buy future games from this Ripoware company if you know they pull off tactics like this..........