211 réponses à ce sujet

[termokanden]

That's because the ranges in ME2 are so short I think and shotguns are supposed to be different somehow. Never had much to do with realism.

Sinosleep, the comparison to the Viper is great and all, but these are really just different weapons. The Widow is meant to one-shot one-kill, the Viper isn't. The latter is more like a scoped battle rifle.

So I still like the Widow. The Claymore WAS to shotguns what the Widow is to sniper rifles, the slow one-shot one-kill beast. It's difficult to argue that this is best, but at least it's fun. But now a charged GPS does more damage than a claymore. A lot more. And it can follow up with quick shots without requiring weird tricks.

As for the old Revenant vs Vindicator discussion, I never understood why people preferred the Vindicator, particularly with Adrenaline Rush. The delay between shots is unbearable with the time dilation.

Modifié par termokanden, 21 septembre 2010 - 11:36 .

[Hootie719]

This may be somewhat of an afterthought at this point, but it may bear mentioning that an unpatched Claymore lends a hand in killing a level of role-playing. If I'm going for full paragon, I don't want to be using, one, a shotgun taken off the corpse of a geth, whom I've been fighting for the past two games, and two, a weapon given to me by cerberus, whom I *spoiler warning* gave the boot by the end of the main quest (I'll just use their ship, crew, resources, and body instead).



It may be nit-picking, but that, in addition to what everyone has said about how the Claymore should be a reward for getting far enough in the story, not just a piece of jewelry to sit in the ship's armory, is why I advocate a patch to make the Claymore the useful, albeit balanced, shotgun it deserves to be.



Not that they'll do anything about it.

[sinosleep]

termokanden wrote...

That's because the ranges in ME2 are so short I think and shotguns are supposed to be different somehow. Never had much to do with realism.

Sinosleep, the comparison to the Viper is great and all, but these are really just different weapons. The Widow is meant to one-shot one-kill, the Viper isn't. The latter is more like a scoped battle rifle.

So I still like the Widow. The Claymore WAS to shotguns what the Widow is to sniper rifles, the slow one-shot one-kill beast. It's difficult to argue that this is best, but at least it's fun. But now a charged GPS does more damage than a claymore. A lot more. And it can follow up with quick shots without requiring weird tricks.

As for the old Revenant vs Vindicator discussion, I never understood why people preferred the Vindicator, particularly with Adrenaline Rush. The delay between shots is unbearable with the time dilation.

One, I was being sarcastic, and two my point is that the logic of "collector ship weapon isn't leaps and bounds better than the other weapons" isn't exclusive to the claymore. It wasn't pre-dlc and it isn't post dlc. Otherwise I agree with you, the DLC weapons have robbed the claymore of it's niche. Both the gps and evicirator can perform one shot kills while providing utility the claymore simply doesn't offer. Hell, even a reload trick claymore has a hard time keeping up with the gps, it's a ridiculous weapon.

Modifié par sinosleep, 21 septembre 2010 - 12:13 .

[termokanden]

You got me, didn't watch the video



I don't think the Collector ship weapons need to be a league of their own, I just think there should be some kind of point in upgrading other than just thinking "hey, this can break a normal human's arm".



I'm using the Claymore, but only because I want to like it. It's sort of working

[PsyrenY]

I'm a biger fan of "damage/clip" than "damage/shot" - reloading is the bane of Shepard's existence, both in cramping his dps and getting him killed.

Is it cool having a BOOMSTICK and totally wasting a varren or collector with one shot and a punch? Sure. But if that kill costs me a clip, but I can kill two collectors with one Scimitar clip (and an extra punch) then I'd rather do that.

It's all down to player preference. I wouldn't mind if the Claymore was stronger but I understand Christina's point in not changing it.

TheodoricFriede wrote...

I dont know what the devil game your playing but everything in ME2 is pretty well explained to me

Why do the Hugo Gernsback crew have thermal clips if they crashed 10 years ago?

[krimesh]

^^

Well, maybe all the clips have to do is to cool down. Everyone just throws them away, because it is kinda awkward to have 1000 K hot pieces of metal on your person. That's my theory anyway.

[OniGanon]

You would think someone would try and make use of all that heat. Find some way to convert heat energy to power your shields or something.

Or make a super heat ray heavy weapon of dhewm.

Modifié par OniGanon, 21 septembre 2010 - 03:41 .

[Omicrone]

TheodoricFriede wrote...
That
doesnt change the fact that the Claymore is ONLY useful with the reload
trick. I understand that PC gamers have it easy, but the way the trick
works seems to be spasifically for the PC gamers. Anyone playing a
vanguard on a console basicly has a crappy weapon.
Not to mention that the reload trick isnt explained in the game. It has to be found.
You have to understand the comparisons here,
The Widow is liquid death.
The Revenent is a meat grinder.
The Claymore is...a slow shotgun that only works if you know the trick.

Claiming that claymore is only useful with the reload trick is like claiming the widow is only useful while zoomed in. Both are incorrect. The widow can still perform one hit kills without zoom, and claymore can one shot thugs without needing reload trick. Reload trick simply makes it better. Without it, it's just as good as the other shotguns, which aren't bad at all. This has been backed up by numbers, whereas your post is backed up by nothing.

termokanden wrote...

Oh it's that myth again.

It's easier to aim with a mouse and keyboard, but it's hardly impossible on a console.

I'm not saying it's impossible, but the PC certainly offers faster reaction times and enables you to multitask much better while aiming. And that's what this thread is about - it's about performing the reload trick and being effective with it (aiming well while doing it).

OniGanon wrote...
Also I don't know what no-pause gaming has
to do with being able to pull off crazy stuff in combat. Pause
effectively gives you impossible reaction speed, which makes doing the
improbable much easier.

It also looks way less impressive on video. All the crazy combat stuff in ME2 that's put on youtube is taken up a notch by non-paused gameplay. Funny enough, I can't recall even 1 video using pause that's noteworthy or shows skill. Apart from Gatsby's guide videos, but they're hardly what I would call crazy combat displays.

godlike13 wrote...
Ya, no. Just no. Console players can
perform the reload trick, but at the cost of quick and accurate aiming.
So it makes it pretty ineffective for us. It's not the actual shooter
gameplay consoles have problems a with, not at all. Its begin able to
aim and hit the melee button at the same time consoles have problems
with. Charging into hordes of baddies and coming out victorious is far
from a "PC-exclusive" because of all that bla bla bla. Consoles can, and
do, do that just fine regardless if they can take advantage of the
reload trick or not. Just not as effectively with the Claymore as the
PCs can because of a trick they can take advantage of due to where there
melee button is located.

I didn't argue one can reach the same level of combat proficiency on a PC and on a console. So what you're doing is basically re-iterating my argument, thanks for that. Bottom line is, however, that reload trick is possible on a console - whether it's as effective as on PC remains questionable. However, you should keep in mind a lot more people on PCs make youtube videos than people on console, so that might be why the common conception occurs.

[OniGanon]

Omicrone wrote...
It also looks way less impressive on video. All the crazy combat stuff in ME2 that's put on youtube is taken up a notch by non-paused gameplay. Funny enough, I can't recall even 1 video using pause that's noteworthy or shows skill. Apart from Gatsby's guide videos, but they're hardly what I would call crazy combat displays.

Omicrone wrote...
Charging into hordes of baddies and coming out victorious is almost only
PC-exclusive because of the faster turning, faster aiming, no-pause
gameplay that the PC allows.

This is what you said, and is what I responded to. Impressiveness on video is utterly irrelevant. Pause is irrelevant. PC players having an edge in ME2 combat has nothing to do with pause or how good they look on YouTube (looking good does not give you skill; it's having skill that makes you look good), and a great deal more to do with the mouse/keyboard controls.

Playing without pause is a handicap, not an advantage. It requires more skill and therefore looks more impressive, but it doesn't give you an edge in combat.

[Christina Norman]

I tuned the reload trick for consoles, if it is significantly easier to do on PC that was not intentional (but I wouldn't patch that away). What makes it significantly easier on PC so I can try to replicate it and tune them separately for ME3?

[Kronner]

Christina Norman wrote...

I tuned the reload trick for consoles, if it is significantly easier to do on PC that was not intentional (but I wouldn't patch that away). What makes it significantly easier on PC so I can try to replicate it and tune them separately for ME3?

You can aim/turn around with the mouse, use "W" key to move Shepard and "F" to trigger melee. It can get you easily killed if you do not do it correctly, but after some practice, it should not happen very often and it becomes natural after some time.

On a console, people can't turn and use melee at the same time, apparently.
Though I have read some posts saying it is not a problem with a "southpaw" controller.

I can't tell if it is harder to do on a console, but considering there is a pause function, it should not be.

Modifié par Kronner, 21 septembre 2010 - 07:37 .

[Christina Norman]

The reload trick is an example of canceling animations. This is a pretty common technique though it is primarily used in fighting games:



Here is an example of it in use in street fighter

http://www.eventhubs...3-third-strike/



If you don't like the reload trick, by all means don't use it! It is supposed to reward coordination and timing.

[Christina Norman]

About the reload trick and documentation.



99% of players will have no interest in the reload trick, it's a very advanced feature, that is only useful with certain playstyles and weapons. It doesn't make sense to present that information to all users in documentation. Documentation is generally for core gameplay concepts that you need to understand to play the game.



I purposefully mentioned this trick on the forums because I did want players to be aware of it and evidently it worked (everyone here at least seems aware of it). In my view the forums are a great way to distribute gameplay information that it doesn't make sense to include in the game.



With that said, I am not excusing myself for any situation where players are confused by information presented in game (i.e. charge not benefiting from biotic cooldown reducers). That was an error on my part, and for ME3 I will do a better job of communicating vital information that does matter (like cooldowns, and the effects of upgrades).

[Christina Norman]

Kronner wrote...

You can aim/turn around with the mouse, use "W" key to move Shepard and "F" to trigger melee. It takes some practice, and can get you easily killed if you do not do it correctly, but after some practice, it should not happen very often.

On a console, people can't turn and use melee at the same time, apparently.
Though I have read some posts saying it is not a problem with a "southpaw" controller.

On console what I generally do is

• Charge someone
• shoot them with the claymore (lets assume they live)
• begin reload animation
• Cancel animation by hitting B
• Aim and shoot

While it is definitely faster to go B -> RT sure you will sacrifice accuracy that way, there is still a  pretty good time saver.

My timing isn't that great, so I usually don't even bother to try the reload trick unless I think I'm in danger of dying.

I could see how PC players could get faster/accurate reload trickery I'll try to tune that separately in ME3 to make things a more equivalent experience.

[Kronner]

Well, considering a PC player can have a mouse with X buttons in one hand, and a lot of keyboard buttons covered with the second hand, unless you implement some kind of handicap (ie delay - which would imho only make sense in PvP mode where both PC vs console players play against each other) PC (more like mouse+keyboard) will always be better/faster/more accurate for any shooter mechanics.

Same goes for using power/hotkeys, I do not have ME2 for xbox360, but I do know you can map 8 powers on a PC and only 3(?) on a console, which also means it is easier(and better) to play without pause on a PC than it is on a console. Would it make sense to limit PC to 3 hotkeys just because console has only 3 too? I doubt it.

Modifié par Kronner, 21 septembre 2010 - 07:47 .

[PsyrenY]

Christina Norman wrote...

I purposefully mentioned this trick on the forums because I did want players to be aware of it and evidently it worked (everyone here at least seems aware of it). In my view the forums are a great way to distribute gameplay information that it doesn't make sense to include in the game.

I agree completely, please feel free to dispense any and all tidbits of wisdom/gameplay data here to the forums. We can then mine the boards for your info and include it in the Wiki as sourced material to ensure it reaches a wider audience.


(Many of us here on the boards contribute to the wiki, and more importantly many players who do NOT post on the forums will still read the wiki for strategy information.)

Christina Norman wrote...
With that said, I am not excusing myself for any situation where players are confused by information presented in game (i.e. charge not benefiting from biotic cooldown reducers). That was an error on my part, and for ME3 I will do a better job of communicating vital information that does matter (like cooldowns, and the effects of upgrades).

Could you also look at the nonfunctional cooldown reducers in DLC characters and items? For example, the Archon Visor from the Equalizer Pack, and Kasumi's passive; tests from forum members here indicate that neither of them is working as intended. I know it is harder to patch DLC, but isn't there a way?

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 21 septembre 2010 - 07:46 .

[OniGanon]

I've seen in some MMO power descriptions, they give the basic description of what it does, then a little button to show an advanced description with far more detailed stats. Something like this would be nice for ME3, to have a menu without too much intimidating clutter for the casual gamer, but still provides optional access to all the little numbers for those of us who like to play Math Effect.

Or you could just shove this advanced information in the Codex.

Modifié par OniGanon, 21 septembre 2010 - 08:12 .

[PsyrenY]

OniGanon wrote...

I've seen in some MMO power descriptions, they give the basic description of what it does, then a little button to show an advanced description with far more detailed stats. Something like this would be nice for ME3, to have a menu without too much intimidating clutter for the casual gamer, but still provides optional access to all the little numbers for those of us who like to play Math Effect.

Or you could just shove this advanced information in the Codex.

Ha! Math Effect. I like that.

I'm not sure there's really a place for some of this though. The Codex is written "in-universe" - it wouldn't include something as meta as the reload trick, or even what a "cooldown" is.

As for MMOs, the primary problem I see with taking pages from them is that MMOs are PC Games. Small elements that are very helpful in a PC interface (e.g. tooltips or hyperlinks) can be much more difficult to use on a console, create excess clutter, or otherwise be more annoying than helpful.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 21 septembre 2010 - 08:04 .

[swk3000]

Kronner wrote...

Well, considering a PC player can have a mouse with X buttons in one hand, and a lot of keyboard buttons covered with the second hand, unless you implement some kind of handicap (ie delay - which would imho only make sense in PvP mode where both PC vs console players play against each other) PC (more like mouse+keyboard) will always be better/faster/more accurate for any shooter mechanics.

Same goes for using power/hotkeys, I do not have ME2 for xbox360, but I do know you can map 8 powers on a PC and only 3(?) on a console, which also means it is easier(and better) to play without pause on a PC than it is on a console. Would it make sense to limit PC to 3 hotkeys just because console has only 3 too? I doubt it.

Actually, we 360 users only have 2 hot-keys: the Shoulder buttons. The Y button is perma-mapped with the class power. We can have up to 3 powers mapped, but only two of them are our choices.

[OniGanon]

I've looked up the 360 controller scheme and concluded that you all need to learn how to hold your controller properly. Use your right thumb on the thumbstick, middle finger in the space between the RT and RB, and your index finger is curled so that it lays diagonally between the coloured face buttons. From this position, every button is accessible at all times. It takes a little getting used to, but if you're going to play a shooting game on a console, this is the only way to do it.

[Kronner]

OniGanon wrote...

I've looked up the 360 controller scheme and concluded that you all need to learn how to hold your controller properly. Use your right thumb on the thumbstick, middle finger in the space between the RT and RB, and your index finger is curled so that it lays diagonally between the coloured face buttons. From this position, every button is accessible at all times. It takes a little getting used to, but if you're going to play a shooting game on a console, this is the only way to do it.

I agree. That or use pause function. Should not be too hard to pause, turn/aim and then do the reload trick.

[PsyrenY]

crumbsucker wrote...

There is a way around the Y button being class power only.If you retrain your powers and only put points in the power you want mapped to Y, it assigns it automatically to the Y button.After that distribute points normally.

Of course this only works for powers that dont have to be unlocked.I prefer having warp mapped to the Y button instead of singularity and this is how I figured out how to do it.

You are my hero! I didn't even think of trying that!

My Vanguard and Engineer both have their armor powers (Barrier and GSB) mapped to the left bumper - with this, my Sentinel's Tech Armor can follow suit, and I won't end up accidentally overloading when I mean to put my shield back up.

[sinosleep]

Christina Norman wrote...

The reload trick is an example of canceling animations. This is a pretty common technique though it is primarily used in fighting games:

Here is an example of it in usein street fighter

http://www.eventhubs...3-third-strike/

If you don't like the reload trick, by all means don't use it! It is supposed to reward coordination and timing.

You have no idea how validated I feel right now, lol.

Optimystic_X wrote...

You are my hero! I didn't even think of trying that!

My Vanguard and Engineer both have their armor powers (Barrier and GSB) mapped to the left bumper - with this, my Sentinel's Tech Armor can follow suit, and I won't end up accidentally overloading when I mean to put my shield back up.

Yeah, I can see how that could lead to many an infuriating death.

Modifié par sinosleep, 21 septembre 2010 - 08:42 .

[swk3000]

Kronner wrote...

Christina Norman wrote...

You can aim/turn around with the mouse, use "W" key to move Shepard and "F" to trigger melee. It can get you easily killed if you do not do it correctly, but after some practice, it should not happen very often and it becomes natural after some time.

Unfortunately, most of the human race is right-handed, as I understand it. For me, at least, I use my right thumb to move the right stick, and to press the four buttons. I only have one thumb, and the claw approach is rather painful on the hand. This means that I can either move the stick or hit a button; not both. I actually had similar problems with [Prototype]'s Devastator attacks: I could charge one up, but charging one up while moving, jumping, etc. was impossible because of the sheer number of buttons involved.

Modifié par swk3000, 21 septembre 2010 - 08:39 .