130 réponses à ce sujet

[MrnDvlDg161]

Well you could always make a scenic blood bath where Shepard takes his machine gun and mows down hundreds of passengers waiting for a flight at the Citadel, he can have Grunt, Garrus, and Thane each with sub-machines guns, one in each hand while they cooly walk from station to station blowing unarmed aliens and humans alike --- just like Modern Warefare 2.

[Dean_the_Young]

ReconTeam wrote...

Yeah and what are the chances that you will encounter Samara again after the mission is over? If Nihlus managed to escape from Samara, Shepard could too.

What are the chances that one of the most prominent actors in the galaxy will running across the view of someone like Samara?

Now Morinith is more likely to kill you via snu-snu.

Just say no.

[Xilizhra]

Samara's bound to oppose you in the future regardless of if you're on overall renegade or paragon. It's the actions, not the trends, that dictate a Justicar's actions, and it's very easy to think up Paragon delimma points that would violate the Justicar code.

This isn't really a fair comparison. Actions taken that would violate the justicar code if taken by a justicar don't qualify as things that would make a justicar kill you (consider that among those are having possessions or a family). Paragon Shepard, by my knowledge, doesn't kill any innocents or act with sufficient dishonor to make her a target.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 septembre 2010 - 11:46 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Samara's bound to oppose you in the future regardless of if you're on overall renegade or paragon. It's the actions, not the trends, that dictate a Justicar's actions, and it's very easy to think up Paragon delimma points that would violate the Justicar code.

This isn't really a fair comparison. Actions taken that would violate the justicar code if taken by a justicar don't qualify as things that would make a justicar kill you (consider that among those are having possessions or a family). Paragon Shepard, by my knowledge, doesn't kill any innocents or act with sufficient dishonor to make her a target.

Sure it is. Samara and the Justicars don't care how great a person overall you are, but what they catch you doing. It isn't even about killing innocents, but any Justicar-questionable crime (which in itself is a separate standard from the Paragon standard). And given that not only is it impossible to be a 'pure' Paragon (as in no Renegade points) in the first place, most players never even try, mixing Paragon and Renegade actions, plus various things that don't even register on that scale.

Like, say, stealing and looting. If Samara weren't sworn to serve you for good and evil, she'd be all over you for such crimes. And that's positively pedantic to some risks you can take as a Paragon.

[Xilizhra]

I can only assume that I did your perfect lawful good Paragon run without even knowing it, because Samara has more-than-friendly feelings for me (but doesn't feel she can express them) and has never breathed a word of criticism about anything I've done. Quite frankly, I think I'm safe from her.

[AntiChri5]

The Morinth defenders never cease to amuse me.



The initial act of trusting Morinth with your life when she tried to kill you less than a minute ago is absurd. Samara walks in the door and saves your life from Morinth, so what do you do? Kill her, leaving yourself vulnerable to someone who you have no reason to trust.

[Xilizhra]

Well, you do have one reason, though you might not know it; Morinth is in love with you if you save her. I personally suspect that she's not lying about you surviving a Union with her; she doesn't know if it's true or not, but she really, really wants it to be.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Dean_the_Young wrote..]What are the chances that one of the most prominent actors in the galaxy will running across the view of someone like Samara?

And why would Samara leave asari space (where she usually works) just to hunt down a Spectre? Even if your renegade it sounds like Samara would prefer not to encounter you again, and won't be hunting you down. So your looking at a chance encounter, although given Shepard's record that may be pretty likely.

If Nihlus got away, why can't Shepard? Hell it might even be fun if Shepard is bored and crazy enough. Also I rather doubt the Council would approve if Justicars went around hunting down all of their agents.

Just say no.

She does that mind control space rape thing, so easier said than done.

[Inquisitor Recon]

Xilizhra wrote...
Well, you do have one reason, though you might not know it; Morinth is in love with you if you save her. I personally suspect that she's not lying about you surviving a Union with her; she doesn't know if it's true or not, but she really, really wants it to be.

You give her too much credit. That look on her face if you agree shows you've been fooled, and she knows it. There isn't a shred of dignity in her.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I can only assume that I did your perfect lawful good Paragon run without even knowing it, because Samara has more-than-friendly feelings for me (but doesn't feel she can express them) and has never breathed a word of criticism about anything I've done. Quite frankly, I think I'm safe from her.

Samara doesn't let the Code decide her emotions and feelings for her. Even with a Renegade she's quite capable of being friendly, of wanting/desiring the same sort of connection that a Paragon who tries a romance can fail at, and otherwise forming a personal connection with a Renegade.

What Samara does do is let her Code dictate her actions. It's why she would hunt down a Renegade if she saw him do something the code does not tolerate, even though she so rarely utters any sort of protest for most in-game actions. It's why she would hunt a Paragon if they did the same.

Or do you intend to argue that Samara would not confront you because she's a hypocrite and plays favorites about applying her Code?

[Dean_the_Young]

AntiChri5 wrote...

The Morinth defenders never cease to amuse me.

The initial act of trusting Morinth with your life when she tried to kill you less than a minute ago is absurd. Samara walks in the door and saves your life from Morinth, so what do you do? Kill her, leaving yourself vulnerable to someone who you have no reason to trust.

Samara didn't save your life if you resisted Morinth. And you were only in that position in the first place because of Samara. You sought Morinth out, not the other way around, and yet you hold her solely responsible?

[Xilizhra]

I'll bet you are also convinced Legion has emotions.

Subjective opinions.

Well, it's a step beyond "Renegade pessimism always leads to solid facts," so, hey, progress.

Samara doesn't let the Code decide her emotions and feelings for her. Even with a Renegade she's quite capable of being friendly, of wanting/desiring the same sort of connection that a Paragon who tries a romance can fail at, and otherwise forming a personal connection with a Renegade.

What Samara does do is let her Code dictate her actions. It's why she would hunt down a Renegade if she saw him do something the code does not tolerate, even though she so rarely utters any sort of protest for most in-game actions. It's why she would hunt a Paragon if they did the same.

Or do you intend to argue that Samara would not confront you because she's a hypocrite and plays favorites about applying her Code?

IIRC, Samara will shut you down if you're a Renegade and say she doesn't feel the same connection. Also, I don't think she'd see Paragon Shepard as a criminal worthy of actually hunting down, when she can go back to asari space and find much worse (and much easier) prey.

Samara didn't save your life if you resisted Morinth. And you were only
in that position in the first place because of Samara. You sought
Morinth out, not the other way around, and yet you hold her solely
responsible?

Well, Morinth didn't know you sought her out when she aims to kill you.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2010 - 12:21 .

[Dave of Canada]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

You sought Morinth out, not the other way around, and yet you hold her solely responsible?

She still took interest in you, she wanted to "feed" off you. If you weren't seeking her attention by doing things she liked, she would've killed some other poor sucker instead. She only begged for her life when you put her in a corner, like most criminals would.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 septembre 2010 - 12:22 .

[Dean_the_Young]

ReconTeam wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote..]What are the chances that one of the most prominent actors in the galaxy will running across the view of someone like Samara?

And why would Samara leave asari space (where she usually works) just to hunt down a Spectre? Even if your renegade it sounds like Samara would prefer not to encounter you again, and won't be hunting you down. So your looking at a chance encounter, although given Shepard's record that may be pretty likely.

Why would I assume my duties will forever keep me out of Asari space?

He's a Renegade. He not only goes where he wishes, he doesn't intend to either stay away from Asari space in the name of chance, or take that chance either.

If Nihlus got away, why can't Shepard? Hell it might even be fun if Shepard is bored and crazy enough. Also I rather doubt the Council would approve if Justicars went around hunting down all of their agents.

Why should my Shepard want to have to 'get away' and then stay away?

My Shepard isn't Nihlus.

She does that mind control space rape thing, so easier said than done.

Morinth doesn't rape. Her persuasion is force of personality and natural Asari attractiveness, nothing more, and those have already been proven to be resisted by Shepard.

Biotics have never had a foundation for actual mind control.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Morinth is way more dangerous to you than Samara. Samara comes to respect Shepard even when he or she is renegade, and would prefer not to kill them either way. She suggests that she should leave before she is compelled to do so. Morinth is literally addicted to murdering people. Just because they don't include any way in the gameplay for her to do so doesn't make it logical for Shepard to assume that Morinth won't still try to find a way to get her fix. Even if you aren't worried about Morinth killing Sheppard personally, then taking her along anywhere is a ridiculous liability. Samara is bound by a strict code of honor and therefore is predictable. Morinth is a crazy death drug addict.

Morinth isn't crazy, at least not in the sense that she's random. She's addicted, but even Samara admits she's more than capable of laying low for decades at a time, if not longer. In many ways, she's more predictable than Samara: Samara admits that she will have to kill you if you meet again, but not how, while Morinth's MO is pretty established.

Morinth isn't a rapist: it's a large part of her additiction ritual. She seduces, but her victims are pretty much willing by the time of consumation. Shand has the right of it: if you don't succumb to her temptations (as you already prove prior to having the choice), Morinth isn't that dangerous to you.

Well ok fine. She's not crazy. That makes her even more dangerous. It still means there is no way to predict anything about her except how she wants to kill you.

It is completely and utterly ridiculous to assume that there is no way she can hurt you anymore, as if she'd just give up after attempting to murder you once.

[Dave of Canada]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Biotics have never had a foundation for actual mind control.

I suspected the  whole ability to make people her slaves was an Ardat-Yakshi thing.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...
IIRC, Samara will shut you down if you're a Renegade and say she doesn't feel the same connection. Also, I don't think she'd see Paragon Shepard as a criminal worthy of actually hunting down, when she can go back to asari space and find much worse (and much easier) prey.

You remember incorrectly.

Justicars don't do the whole 'relative goodness' thing. Its why they'll wipe out entire police stations and will kill any cop they catch doing dirty deeds, regardless of how good that person may be overall.

Well, Morinth didn't know you sought her out when she aims to kill you.

So? How does that make her entirely responsible for the situation you knowingly put yourself in?

[Dave of Canada]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So? How does that make her entirely responsible for the situation you knowingly put yourself in?

If I went out to lure a murderer and he / she kidnapped me, that doesn't make me feel bad for the murderer. Sorry.

Modifié par Dave of Canada, 21 septembre 2010 - 12:31 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Well ok fine. She's not crazy. That makes her even more dangerous. It still means there is no way to predict anything about her except how she wants to kill you.

No, it doesn't mean that either. You're simply trying to list her as crazy without the identifier. She's ammoral, not insane.

She isn't a random actor. Samara calls her such, never implies her as such, and nothing in-game implies it. She has her way of doing things, and she's simply very good at them. She's good at seduction. She's good at acting. She's good at biotics. But she isn't crazy or psycho or prone to unpredictable action and tastes and values. Otherwise Samara's entire coaching would have been pointless.

It is completely and utterly ridiculous to assume that there is no way she can hurt you anymore, as if she'd just give up after attempting to murder you once.

I'm surprised you'd say this, given the nature of most literature and other bioware games.

I'm not surprised at the strawman hyperbole.

Morinth can hurt you. Then again, EDI can onen an airlock and throw you into space. Morinth isn't a violent killer: she doesn't shoot people for giggles, or suffocate them in their sleep, and as shown in Shepard's case she doesn't even want to drug you to weaken your mind. You are a challenge and Morinth wants you in a particular way, and all you have to do is not be that way with her, ie don't sleep with her.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So? How does that make her entirely responsible for the situation you knowingly put yourself in?

If I went out to lure a murderer and he / she kidnapped me, that doesn't make me feel bad for the murderer. Sorry.

Not saying you should.

[Dean_the_Young]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Biotics have never had a foundation for actual mind control.

I suspected the  whole ability to make people her slaves was an Ardat-Yakshi thing.

There's no real basis for Ardat-Yakshi myths being anything but that: myths. Ardat-Yakshi kill when they mate and get stronger, but nothing else is really implied about them.

Samara says it best herself: Morinth is an actor who can play your emotions and empathies like a violin. People unprepared will, of course, be swayed, but it's just that: persuasion. Dominate is a cool gameplay mechanic, but not backed by lore.

[Xilizhra]

Well, if you're a Renegade, that's different; Morinth would likely be less dangerous.

Samara says it best herself: Morinth is an actor who can play your
emotions and empathies like a violin. People unprepared will, of course,
be swayed, but it's just that: persuasion. Dominate is a cool gameplay
mechanic, but not backed by lore.

The village under Morinth's control implies differently.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2010 - 12:38 .

[ObserverStatus]

Xilizhra wrote...

Well, you do have one reason, though you might not know it; Morinth is in love with you if you save her. I personally suspect that she's not lying about you surviving a Union with her; she doesn't know if it's true or not, but she really, really wants it to be.

I hate to rain on your parade, but I think it's just an act.  According to Samara, she'll say whatever it takes to get Shepard to sleep with her.

[FuturePasTimeCE]

that's not a option for my sheperd....