30 réponses à ce sujet

[Thorne_underfoot]

I recently started playing a wizard Necromancer. 

However, am I the only one who thinks that there are some gaps?  I have not played PnP since 2nd edition, so I don't have a clue what spells currently exist now, but it seems to me that there should be some spells against Undead in the Necro arsonal.  The PW that I play on has a Graveyard where the dead walk and i would love to be able to go in and either dominate or destroy these "Rival" undead.  And particularly at lower levels, I am finding very little love of the dead arts. 

[M. Rieder]

I completely agree. My favorite play is as a necromancer and it would certainly make sense to have more. I have never taken the time to browse the vault to see if anyone has added any good necromancy spells

[dunniteowl]

I think there's a whole lot more to Necromancy than most realize, even as a complete fantasy element. Speaking with the dead, calling up spirits, raising the dead, creating undead, but also controlling them, dominating them and dispelling them. Additionally, it seems to me that those who specialize in the knowledge of death, should also be able to do things like regeneration spells, vampiric spells, healing spells, and resurrection spells. For what is the knowledge of things dead and dying good for if not used to find ways to prolong, preserve and call life back?

And then there's your whole, unleash a horde of undead and take over the regions gambit, that's always fun too.

dunniteowl

(I don't think too many folks have made too many necromantic spells and the D&D 2.0 to current 4.0 *(and everything in between) is really pretty sparse in that category of magic.)

[Weiser_Cain]

I haven't played in a long time but Necro is the hardest specialty to play as. Especially at those low levels where you're basically hiding behind your fighters and even your familiar sometimes.

Oh boy, I did like 3 cold damage.

[Thorne_underfoot]

LOL. Yeah. Am still low level on the PW where I play but getting past 4th level is really tough. And I can't tell you how much use I have gotten out of a simple wand of frost.



But then i went to the graveyard and got owned where a fighter or cleric, or even a rogue would have danced on their "Graves" so to speak. I just think that a simple 0 level spell in the vein of Frost ray and another at 1st level similar to MM, but both doing damage only/mainly to the undead would be an excellent start.



Admittedly False life at 2nd level and Death Armor are both awesome spells, but they are so defensive. There needs to be offensive stuff too. And the main strength of a Wizard is to be adaptable. So why not give some spells to allow to do that?

[MANoob]

Being a necromancer doesn't mean that you should be using only necromancy spells. Use those spells that work best for your current level. As it is, necro is probably the best PvM wizard school since it bans divination (which, apart from premonition, has little to offer to a PvM build). So if you're just a necromancy specialist there's nothing preventing you from using other spells. Necromancy focuses, if you are aiming for them, are better not taken early, since your 'big boom' spells are high level ones. Against undead it's undeath to death. Against living it's wail of the banshee. Finger of death, avasculate, cloudkill are good too. Circle of death is occasionally useful. Enervations/rays of enfeeblement should be used only vs very tough opponents worth debuffing.
Generally just use the spells that would work best for your situation, regardless of school, and you won't have any problems.

At levels below 5th you should be owning any living crature with sleep/color spray easily. Damage spell are lame. Won't work vs undead though.
 

Modifié par MANoob, 20 septembre 2010 - 07:07 .

[The Fred]

I am disappointed that Negative Energy Ray and Burst, at least, didn't make it from NWN1 to 2. They gave Necros some raw damage (and even though Burst was inferior to a plain Fireball in terms of raw damage and didn't hurt undead, it went through more non-undead resistances and did Strength damage, too, making it great for weakening those melee mobs) and a bit more utility... I can't remember whether Ray of Enfeeblement is in either, or if it's actually Alteration now I think about it...

Also, to what DNO said, I'm pretty sure the Cure spells used to be Necromancy (in BG, which means 2nd ed, anyway) but now apparently they're Conjuration for some reason. Crazy. Not that it makes much difference for arcane casters, but still.

It just seems silly that Necromancy is mostly taken for the opposition school (well, this always happens, actually) and that even if you want to build a necro-themed necro, it's hard to.

Modifié par The Fred, 20 septembre 2010 - 07:12 .

[MANoob]

Well, in nwn, specializing in a school gives you almost no bonuses for spells of that school (unless you go red wizard) so no wonder specialization is usually chosen for opposition school. However, necro has good high level save-or-dies (which are generally much better than damage spells) so if you're making a DC focused wizard (probably a red wizard) necro is a good school. But again, being a necro wizard doesn't mean that you shouldn't use spells from other schools. Use the best spells from all schools and be happy.

[nicethugbert]

NWN2 is lacking a lot of spells. Ask Kaedrin to make some.

Modifié par nicethugbert, 20 septembre 2010 - 07:50 .

[Thorne_underfoot]

MANoob wrote...

Being a necromancer doesn't mean that you should be using only necromancy spells. Use those spells that work best for your current level. As it is, necro is probably the best PvM wizard school since it bans divination (which, apart from premonition, has little to offer to a PvM build). So if you're just a necromancy specialist there's nothing preventing you from using other spells. Necromancy focuses, if you are aiming for them, are better not taken early, since your 'big boom' spells are high level ones. Against undead it's undeath to death. Against living it's wail of the banshee. Finger of death, avasculate, cloudkill are good too. Circle of death is occasionally useful. Enervations/rays of enfeeblement should be used only vs very tough opponents worth debuffing.
Generally just use the spells that would work best for your situation, regardless of school, and you won't have any problems.

At levels below 5th you should be owning any living crature with sleep/color spray easily. Damage spell are lame. Won't work vs undead though.
 

Conceptually, I here what you are saying.  However, what I am trying to express is that a school of magic shouldn't only be "Useful at high levels".  Evocation has spells that are usful at all levels.  Why not Necromancy? 

There is definitely room to show/express that with lower level spells.  Where is the harm in a 0 level spell that is "negative energy ray" doing 1-4 damage to target Undead (or even 1-6 since it only effects Undead)?  Or a first level spell that nukes/stuns all undead in a radius for a short time (similar to Turn Undead ability).  The offensive spells that they do get are Ray of enfeeblement which does very little and ghoul touch which requires a melee touch AND a saving throw to stun, an ability that other schools get at range at level 0.

In the end, Clerics have MUCH more power over the dead than a Necromancer and that just CAN'T be right (in my book).

And then there is always concept.  For me, I am old school and believe that focusing on a given school of magic means to FOCUS on that school to the exclusion of all others where possible.  In "Advanced" you only got an extra spell slot if you used it for a spell of that school.  This, I believe, was to encourage those who specialized to take spells from their own specialty.  So even if it isn't enforced, why can't it be encouraged with more spell choices?  where is the harm?

[MANoob]

Well, I see very little appeal in adding another kind of fireball or color spray, but just from necro school. Wizards have access to more than one school for a reason. If you want damage, chose evocation spells. Why doesn't divination have any damage spells? Those specialization slots in pnp are only 1 per level. So prepare at least 1 necro spell per level if you want to be more 'necro focused'. Just don't use necro spells only.

But if you want extra necro spells, I can make them for you lol. I just doubt you'll be able to convince your PW administration to use them.

Modifié par MANoob, 20 septembre 2010 - 08:07 .

[Thorne_underfoot]

MANoob wrote...

Well, I see very little appeal in adding another kind of fireball or color spray, but just from necro school. Wizards have access to more than one school for a reason. If you want damage, chose evocation spells. Why doesn't divination have any damage spells? Those specialization slots in pnp are only 1 per level. So prepare at least 1 necro spell per level if you want to be more 'necro focused'. Just don't use necro spells only.

But if you want extra necro spells, I can make them for you lol. I just doubt you'll be able to convince your PW administration to use them.

So thanks for the offer.  although I think I am not communicating properly.  I am not saying "Make another Fireball, only necro based".  That makes no sense and is not in concept.  I wouldn't expect Divination to have damage based spells (as for instance). 

However What I am saying is that, where it makes sense, some additional flavor/content can't hurt.  And I do think it is very in concept for a necromancer to be able to do damage or stun the undead at low levels as these are precursors to higher level spells.

As far as the Admin of the PW is concerned, I trust that if the content is made and generally approved/used, that they will implement.  Not asking for something "For me".  If I were, I would learn how to code it and implement myself.  

[nicethugbert]

I don't see why necromancy can't be fun at low levels. For the sake of fun, many people find it necessary to play the concept from the start. They expect real differences from start to finish, not empty labels. Unless it's save or die, necromancy is lame in NWN2 and that is boring.

[painofdungeoneternal]

i have already almost doubled the number of wizard spells, and have another of about 400 in various stages of implementation and importation ( many of this is using content from Kaedrin, the PRC and the fantastic work done by Syrus Greycloak, and i'm using many from the SRD, i try to rework em before i use em though. ).

You might want to hop onto dungeoneternal and do some wizard levels to see what is available. There is a cantrip 0 level which damages undead, not sure how much of what has been added is necromancy. Usually adding a new spell requires a bit more than a new damage type, it really should do something totally impossible to do before for a player. ( alarm, reaving dispel, benign transposition are examples of things which i think folks find interesting )

I don't think focusing on one aspect such as necromancy is a good idea though beyond adding one or two spells for flavor or to address key issues, there are far bigger gaps in other schools like diviners or illusionists, and of course this just boosts wizards compared to fighters. A few new things won't hurt, but don't just focus on one area as new things are added. I usually focus on areas which have a real imbalance and try to add things across the board soas to evenly build up everything at once.

There are a few PW's looking at using this system, well it needs a complete system to make some of the crazier things possible. You can also try using it on sea of dragons.

Even doing a new spell called mercy based on feedback from a player on Sea of Dragons who only wanted to use healing spells as a cleric. If you have ideas for new spells, and are willing to work with me to implement things in a way that works with the engine ( ie if you want a wish spell specify what 5 effects of it are going to be as subradials like they did in baldurs gate, i am not going to add AI that can figure out what you type in )

"Old school" player input helps me a lot.

Modifié par painofdungeoneternal, 20 septembre 2010 - 10:19 .

[nicethugbert]

Where do we post our suggestions?

[painofdungeoneternal]

Here if you want. Or on the citadel.



If it's already a SRD spell, or in a source book, it's likely already on my list. One of these days i am going to post the 400 i have started to see which portion should be focused on first.



( it's kind of overkill since a wizard can only memorize 255 or so spells before it messes up the character, i need to figure out a way to increase that limit somehow, perhaps by swapping things out using a spellbook )

[dunniteowl]

Honestly a good place to make suggestions can be here on these forums. There is also an area in the CItadel where painofdungeoneternal has a series of posts relating to this magic system he has been building where those types of suggestions and requests might be extremely helpful.

pain is very attentive to most suggestions and even if his answer sometimes sounds like he's not interested, I can assure you, that's just his wording. I've not yet met someone with more interest in making things more flexible or varied than pain does. Basically if he posts in a subject, you've already gotten his attention.

dunniteowl

[nicethugbert]

The Spell Compendium could be a place to look for more.

[moderator's edit: removed the link and made this a comment instead of a share point.  This is probably a bit too liberal a move for the forums, Mr. President.]

Modifié par dunniteowl, 20 septembre 2010 - 11:59 .

[M. Rieder]

Perhaps giving a necromancer an ability similar to turn undead which either paralyzes or dominates them. We could call it something other than "turn undead". Maybe "sway undead" or "dominate undead"?

[dunniteowl]

Control Undead? I dunno, but the idea of controlling them or holding them isn't out of the realm of a Necromancer type, I'd say. Let's say that the Undead come up out of the ground in response to an ages old geas/curse. The controlling force behind it is no longer actually directing the undead coming out for you. They are mindless husks and so are not affected by any mental or mind affecting spells,

A deific Turn Undead should cause them to back away or be destroyed (pending the level of the cleric waving his holy symbol and gesticulating for the Lord.) However, because there is no active control, I could easily see a Necromancer at least negating the force of the old curse and causing the undead to at least stop attacking or to (at high enough levels) exercise power over them and direct them to some degree.

I don't know how you'd account for that in a scripted fashion, but it would be pretty awesome...

My overall point of view on Arcane Magic (that which a wizard learns over say, Nature Magic or Deific Magic, which are granted by other means) is that most, if not all of the basic Arcane Magic is nothing more than the study, testing and experimentation by intelligent beings (arguably) to replicate exactly those effects seen in Nature and Deific Magic, and then proceeding on from there.

Necromancy is one of those areas that most people see as inherently evil and so not a lot of attention is given it. I see Necromancy as one area of magical study (clearly this is all just fantasy, so don't get the impression I sit at home in a darkened room with red candles burning and a cat on the altar, okay?) that is like a loaded gun.

The magic itself is neither good nor evil. It is just dangerous to toy with it and use it when not sufficiently prepared. Additionally, the use to which it is put determines the nature of good or evil to which it is attributed.

I know that's way off topic of the intent of the postm though, for purposes of creation of more spells, it should be looked at dispassionately to see, in painofdungeoneternal's words, "...focus on areas which have a real imbalance and try to add things across the board soas to evenly build up everything at once."



dunniteowl

[BigfootNZ]

Its funny in NWN1 I always played Necromancers, mainly since it was the best school for the bonus spells without sacrifcing anything important...

Thing is ive been putting together my own spell additions for my module over the last year and its quite amazing finding just how poor Necromancy spells were supported in NWN2, i knew they where sparce but not as sparce as I came to realise. I mean the first issue to me is the limit to the number of summons you can create, unless you go with a system that rather than summon, it creates then dominates the undead allowing you to control more than just one, and the fact the undead are just so damn weak, where in PnP you have nubers to make up for it (Think im gonna go with that for an Animate Dead rewrite, maybe even make it so you have to cast it on a corpse or a group of corpses and get 1 skeleton per 3 caster levels for 24 hours, ala a PnP rules meld).

Thing is when you throw in spells like Stone Bones and Iron bones, Incorporeal Enhancement (Id drop the incorporeal requirments and make it all undead), Vile Undeath (nothing like infusing a subserviant undead with a fiendish spirit) and feats from Libris Mortis like 'Unliving Weapon' which turn a single undead under your control into a walking time bomb of considerable power, necromancy or the spells you think of when you think Necromancy such as Animate Dead and Control Undead etc suddenly becomes a very strong school with a nice set of spells, take 3 zombies, drop an iron bones and a few undead only enhancment spells and you have some henchmen to strike fear into your enemies instead of a rather laughable pet...

Ive personally set my spell school 2da oppositions to 2nd edition, making Illusion spells inexcessable to Necromancers, heck NWN1/2 was always far too leniant with opposition schools I mean if your gonna give em a bonus spell per spell level for specialising, make the penalty a little more stronger so they need to make a tough choice, otherwise who wouldnt specialise every time?... I know ive never 'not' specialised and i play alot of wizards, cut out a whole school id actually miss and give the one I specialised in enough good spells to make up for it and id happily do so.

Looking over the wizard spells, broken down by school its actually rather annoying just how sparce some schools are... it wouldnt have been all that hard to add half a dozen more before release. Ive personaly been setting up my own spell2da hak, finnished entering and redesigning every spell i could get my hand on from PnP to fit within NWN... its up to about 600+ cleric/druid/wiz spells as of a week ago, never really counted so thats probably a low estimate (taken me nearly a year collating, re-tooling and inputting), the codings gonna be real dog, but damn it, it'll be worth it once its finnished just to get a little variety going.

Its deffinetly open my eyes as to just how woeful spells in NWN1/2 actualy are or were.

[Thorne_underfoot]

I have always felt that the disparity between Wizards and Sorcerers is/should be greater. With everything that sorcerers get (and I am not a huge fan of them to begin with), Wizards get skill points, special feats and diversity of spells. So the more spells out there, particularly different ones rather than clones of existing ones, the more diverse. Which is exactly (IMHO) how it should be.

[The Fred]

As pain says, illusionists and especially diviners suffer more than necromancers. Abjuration features many important spells, but few of these are DC-based, meaning Spell Focus: Abjuration is even more useless than the others. However, all of these *could* use some more spells, and further, there are a bunch of (almost) free-to-use, cannon, D&D spells in the SRD (System Resource Document) which could be included.



In terms of necromancers, when you subtract spells like Animate Dead which have no save DC, spell focus becomes pretty poor (Conjuration also has this problem since some of its best spells are the summoning ones, but at least there are enough conjuration ones that you can rationalise focusing in them).

[Thorne_underfoot]

Yeah, I bet all of the schools could use some work. Some more than others. Personally, my favorite two are Necro and Illusion. Unfortunately, a lot of Illusions are so fluid that they would be hard (at least for me) to conceptualize within a video game. I remember playing a gnome illusionist thief WAY back in the day. He had loads of fun with his illusions, using them almost exclusively to harry the party. So I could easily see this thread spreading to "More (insert specialty) Spells anyone?"

[Weiser_Cain]

I've only specialized as a necromancer. It's a flavor thing.

Have you tried a build like this?

Fighter 2/ Necromancer 8/ Eldritch Knight 10/ Pale Master 10

All this talk makes me want to play again...