112 réponses à ce sujet

[Skyblade012]

Read the codex people. The codex entry for the Normandy SR2, when discussing potential upgrades, clearly lists the ability to mount an axial accelerator cannon as one of the things that could be added to the ship. It does not have one by default, it simply sticks to the Javelin torpedos.



Oh, and FYI, in-game data takes precedence over the wiki, since the wiki is not edited by a canon source. In game data says that it is more difficult to land the Normandy on higher gravity worlds, it never says it is impossible. Not that the discussion really matters, since 90% of the time the Normandy just sent down another vehicle rather than land as well, it just used the Mako instead of the shuttle.

[GnusmasTHX]

Skyblade012 wrote...

Read the codex people. The codex entry for the Normandy SR2, when discussing potential upgrades, clearly lists the ability to mount an axial accelerator cannon as one of the things that could be added to the ship. It does not have one by default, it simply sticks to the Javelin torpedos.

And thus a Thanix Cannon being Cruiser equivalent is superior to a frigate-length MAC. Unfortunately the 3D world is lost on some people, who are unable to realize the difference in size.

The wiki pretty much says the same thing, but sometimes in a different way. A lot of it is taken verbatim, so it usually suffices.

wulf3n wrote...


You've seen a picture that compares the SR2 and an Alliance Frigate? i'd be happy to see it. If you're talking about the skewed perspective shots from ME1 then you really have no basis for an argument.

I don't need one, the SR1 was an Alliance Frigate. The SR2 is twice the size. I don't need measuring tape to realize it's still nowhere near the size of a cruiser when the SR2 itself stops right beside the Collector Cruiser and isn't even half its length. Nor was the SR1 compared to any cruiser around it during the end of ME1.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 21 septembre 2010 - 09:25 .

[Shadowomega23]

I think we all agree that it is in the Frigate class, but back to the orginal posts comment about the need of the Thanix Cannon is to give enhanced killing power to a ship out classed by weight, armor, and size. Kind of like the tank Destroyers of WW2, they where medium to light class tanks fielding guns larger then most of their Chassie would cary, they also would use specialized mutions to deal with tanks only. The major down side is most tank Destories didn't have the armor needed to aditquitly defend them from anything their weight class or bigger. So pretty much with the Thanix its just a big gun needed for a Frigate class ship to fight ships of the Cruiser/Destroyer class.

[Burdokva]

Not that the Collector cruiser is a good measure for other Citadel races cruisers - Joker says [í]"that ship is massive!"[/i]. I highly doubt an experienced pilot, one who has fought in a large fleet engagement, would casually mention just how large a random cruiser was. To the contrary, it implies it's much larger than a cruiser.



I'm pretty sure I've another side-by-side scale comparison shot.

Shadowomega23, you're mising self-propelled assault guns and tank destroyers. Besides, why compare fleet classes to tank? We already have an fully functional system, and I maintain that the SR-2 is a destroyer-class vessel.

Modifié par Burdokva, 21 septembre 2010 - 09:41 .

[adam_grif]

The SR2 doesn't have any cruiser guns, even if it is cruiser length.

The Thanix gun corrects that issue.


ATTENTION PEOPLE:

THE COLLECTOR CRUISER IS NOT A CRUISER.

Why they call it a cruiser when it is CLEARLY over 1 KM in length (and thus into Dreadnought territory) is unknown. Once again the writers and art team fail to communicate.

Shadowomega23, you're mising
self-propelled assault guns and tank destroyers. Besides, why compare
fleet classes to tank? We already have an fully functional system, and I
maintain that the SR-2 is a destroyer-class vessel.

We have never heard of Destroyer class vessels in MEverse. The classification does not appear to be used.

In naval roles, Destroyers are primarily for destroying aircraft and submarines (the origin of the term "Destroyer" was a concatination of "Torpedo Boat Destroyer"). Sometimes they are general purpose vessels too, but I'm not sure why you would call the SR2 a destroyer. Frigate seems fine.

Modifié par adam_grif, 21 septembre 2010 - 09:47 .

[Skyblade012]

Burdokva wrote...

Not that the Collector cruiser is a good measure for other Citadel races cruisers - Joker says [í]"that ship is massive!"[/i]. I highly doubt an experienced pilot, one who has fought in a large fleet engagement, would casually mention just how large a random cruiser was. To the contrary, it implies it's much larger than a cruiser.



I'm pretty sure I've another side-by-side scale comparison shot.

Um, FYI, the Collector ship is identified as a "Cruiser" by scans done by the original Normandy, and that determination was likely made because of its size.

And any ship that is ten times the size of yours looks massive when you are flying close enough to touch it.

[GnusmasTHX]

No the Collector Cruiser is no where near Dreadnought size. Sovereign is Dreadnought sized, that cruiser is no Sovereign.

[Shadowomega23]

The reason I compared to the tanks is the Idea of weapon design, Something small but carring a gun one of its larger brothers would carry, but in doing so it scarfices armor and other things to do so. In the Case of the SR2 it now carries a Destroyer/Cruiser grade weapon but doesn't have the armor plating to match.

As for the Scans from the SR1 dunno if it was based on Size or was it Based on Mass. If they based it on Size it would likely be Dreadnaught how else would they have room to even potentially carry every human on earth. If it was based on Mass like I believe they did the scan would be thrown off by the amount of Empty space that ship had.

Little note Soverign was 2km long he would have been classed as a Super Dreadnaught. Most Dreadnaughts in MEU are about 1km.

Modifié par Shadowomega23, 21 septembre 2010 - 09:53 .

[Burdokva]

adam_grif wrote...

We have never heard of Destroyer class vessels in MEverse. The classification does not appear to be used.

In naval roles, Destroyers are primarily for destroying aircraft and submarines (the origin of the term "Destroyer" was a concatination of "Torpedo Boat Destroyer"). Sometimes they are general purpose vessels too, but I'm not sure why you would call the SR2 a destroyer. Frigate seems fine.

That we haven't heard of any doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Sorry, but I see no point in bashing our heads against a wall trying to find a non-existing ship class for the SR-2, when it's clearly a destroyer.

While your description destroyers (or escorts) is correct, it's an old, WWI-II era one. Since it seem Mass Effect's universe is more akin to old gun combat (Firaxen treaty = Washington treaty on fleet tonnage, even) that would apply well enough to the SR-2. 

Shadowomega23 wrote...

The reason I compared to the tanks is the Idea of weapon design, Something small but carring a gun one of its larger brothers would carry, but in doing so it scarfices armor and other things to do so. In the Case of the SR2 it now carries a Destroyer/Cruiser grade weapon but doesn't have the armor plating to match.

Battlecruiser? Sure, it's not small, but that's a byproduct of the limitations of naval technologies (long slender hull - greater sea speed). But in concept it's the same, largest possible gun in a fast, weak armored ship. 

Shadowomega23 wrote...

As for the Scans from the SR1 dunno if it was based on Size or was it Based on Mass. If they based it on Size it would likely be Dreadnaught how else would they have room to even potentially carry every human on earth. If it was based on Mass like I believe they did the scan would be thrown off by the amount of Empty space that ship had.

Little note Soverign was 2km long he would have been classed as a Super Dreadnaught. Most Dreadnaughts in MEU are about 1km.

Exactly! Even dreadnoughts don't have enough internal volume to hold millions of people. Volume-wise, the Collector ship is probably second only to the Reapers, if not larger. Zaeed's description of standard warships is clear enough that they're very cramped, just like modern submarines. There's really no sense in large internal volume. Scale-wise, based on Normandy next to it, it's also far too large for a cruiser.

Modifié par Burdokva, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:02 .

[adam_grif]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

No the Collector Cruiser is no where near Dreadnought size. Sovereign is Dreadnought sized, that cruiser is no Sovereign.

Dreadnoughts are Dreadnought sized, and Dreadnoughts start at 800 meters. Codex says so. The interior chamber that you GO INSIDE in the game is easily that long, and that's not even the entire length of the ship.

Sovereign is the largest ship on record, you don't have to be that size in order to qualify as a dreadnought.

The reason I compared to the tanks is the Idea of weapon design,
Something small but carring a gun one of its larger brothers would
carry, but in doing so it scarfices armor and other things to do so. In
the Case of the SR2 it now carries a Destroyer/Cruiser grade weapon but
doesn't have the armor plating to match.

I still don't see how that's a "destroyer". Like I said, destroyers are specialized for intercepting smaller craft, so maybe if it was like a dedicated anti-fighter ship or something that would make sense, but...

As for the Scans from the SR1 dunno if it was based on Size or was it
Based on Mass. If they based it on Size it would likely be Dreadnaught
how else would they have room to even potentially carry every human on
earth. If it was based on Mass like I believe they did the scan would be
thrown off by the amount of Empty space that ship had.

How could they have "scanned" the inside of the ship to determine that it was mostly empty space? If they could determine it's mass that wouldn't be helpful at all, because ship's mass is variable based on the ME fields being projected around, fields that are nearly perpetually on to get increased performance on ships.

While your description destroyers (or escorts) is correct, it's an old,
WWI-II era one. Since it seem Mass Effect's universe is more akin to old
gun combat (Firaxen treaty = Washington treaty on fleet tonnage, even)
that would apply well enough to the SR-2.

"Destroyers" have always been escorts for intercepting subs, small boats and aircraft. Navies that use destroyers as their only ship use them in more general roles (even ground attack thanks to cruise missiles etc), but they're by no means as he is describing them - that of unusually huge guns in small packages.

If the creators wanted Destroyers to mean that, then it would, but there is no logical reason for us to select that classification when it doesn't jive with the meaning of the term.

Modifié par adam_grif, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:03 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Must've been one large cruiser it slammed into in ME1 then, or turian ships over compensate. Still, the cruiser isn't as overwhelming as Sovereign was, and feels fine for a Cruiser classification. Also it was kind of ****ty. Maybe they knew that it'd be taken down quite easily in two years.

As for mass vs. size, I suspect size was used. It's said during that mission is that the Collector's were targeting Earth, not that they'd somehow make it there with one ship and intended to take everyone in a single trip.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:08 .

[Burdokva]

adam_grif wrote...

I still don't see how that's a "destroyer". Like I said, destroyers are specialized for intercepting smaller craft, so maybe if it was like a dedicated anti-fighter ship or something that would make sense, but...
 

Smaller craft like the occulus drones?

Plus, Mass Effect is clear that intercepting bombers is the role of frigates with dedicated GARDIAN systems. While destroyers, as in real navies, are anti-frigate and pinpoint attack ships, when used against larger vessels (cruisers, battleships etc.).

Modern destroyers are versatile, multipurpose vessels with the primary task of engaging surface or submersed vessels. WWII destroyers were escorts; neither is anti-aircraft. That would be dedicated AA cruisers, which all large navies employed in WWII.

Modifié par Burdokva, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:08 .

[adam_grif]

Must've been one large cruiser it slammed into in ME1 then, or turian ships over compensate.

The turian SHIP which we do not know is a cruiser (may well be a dread) would be lucky to get to 1/3 of the LENGTH of Sovereign, and is significantly smaller in other dimensions.

[GnusmasTHX]

adam_grif wrote...

Must've been one large cruiser it slammed into in ME1 then, or turian ships over compensate.

The turian SHIP which we do not know is a cruiser (may well be a dread) would be lucky to get to 1/3 of the LENGTH of Sovereign, and is significantly smaller in other dimensions.

It's a cruiser. Dev said so in the old forum, and also that the only Dreadnoughts participating were the DA and Sovereign.

But yeah, I forgot that Sovereign was exceptionally large even for a Dreadnought, it puts the size in proper perspective.

[Burdokva]

The movies are messed Codex-wise, the devs confirmed it a while ago. Turian ships even more so, you have a model in Shepard's cabin that's a cruiser and the exact same one (even scale-wise) is the frigate Verrakan in Zaeed's quarters.

[adam_grif]

Sov really dwarfs all the other Geth ship too, which is the only really good perspective shot we get in the whole scene for scaling (everything else is on funny angles, like the Turian ship that gets crashed into is far closer than Sov is and we can't really see either of them properly).



But we don't know how large those Geth ships were, whether they are frigates or cruisers and so on.

[GnusmasTHX]

Burdokva wrote...

The movies are messed Codex-wise, the devs confirmed it a while ago. Turian ships even more so, you have a model in Shepard's cabin that's a cruiser and the exact same one (even scale-wise) is the frigate Verrakan in Zaeed's quarters.

That just sounds like them being lazy efficient with their resources.

[Shadowomega23]

@GnusmasTHX I think that was intended to be a Turian Dreadnaught, but it could easily be listed as a cruiser due to lower height profile and wide width profile.



@adam_grif

As for being Call Destoryer grade weapon, currently all Cruisers are built on Destroyer Frames, the differeance is Cruisers today are being used for higher speed and anti-air specialities, most fielding a 5 inch deck gun with the rest fielding Cruise Missiles or Harpoons Missiles. Where as Destroyers still field that 5 inch Deck gun for close in ship combat, they also use Torepedo system in addition to the multi missile system. Though as of now in the US navy no Destroyer is left in Operation. Solo relaying on Cruiser and Frigates as escort.



Though overall I think the best place to compare ship classes to would be from Homeworld series or Freespace series.

[adam_grif]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

That just sounds like them being lazy efficient with their resources.

It's by no means an isolated screwup.

The ships that came through the Citadel relay in ME1 were supposed to be Dreadnoughts, except there wasn't a propper communciation between artists and writers, so they put like 10 of them in the shot, and there are only supposed to be <6 human dreadnoughts in existence... so they said they were "Cruiers", even though they use the model and textures designed for Dreads.

The whole battle of the citadel is screwed up colossally. Missiles aren't supposed to be used for fighting, but that's practically all they use in the battle. The ships don't bother shooting at extreme range, they just close the distance, ram other ships (!), wallow around like beached whales and lob slow moving fireballs at each other.

Then there was a bunch in ME2 that will raise my bloodpressure if I think about too much. FIrst that comes to mind is the GARDIAN "Laser" on the colony that is DEFINATELY not a laser, even though the techie explicitly says that it is a laser.

Though overall I think the best place to compare ship classes to would be from Homeworld series or Freespace series.

... but why bother? Frigate is already a fine classification, or Cruise if it's too large for that. Why not use Babylon 5 classifications, where destroyers are the biggest ships there are? Or Star Wars, where Star Destroyers are the largest ships in common service? 

Frigates like anything else in MEverse aren't all the same size. Some are larger than others, so SR2 being larger than SR1 isn't really a problem in classification terms.

Modifié par adam_grif, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:25 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Homeworld Destroyers would dwarf the SR2. I'm pretty sure I'm thinking of the right unit, at least.

And last I heard, devs said that the Alliance and turian ships were all Cruisers. Though that was way back when we used the old forum, maybe they changed their minds.
It makes sense too, given the importance all races place on their dreadnoughts.
EDIT: Oh well, guess what adam said is what happened.

I thought it was funny that the turret on Horizon was just an oversized turret.... From everywhere else that had turrets.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:27 .

[Shadowomega23]

Humans actually seem to love the Carriers more then the Dreadnaughts, as we are the only race with them, the only race to even think of them, and their not affected by the Treaty. Yet they are the same size as a Dreadnaugh, and could in theory bring enough firepower to bare from their strike craft to bring down the DA, though none where used in the Battle of the Citadel something BW should have done. Maybe in ME3 the Devs will have someone sit and watch the team making the Cut scenes and slap them on the back of the head when they screw up.



As for the Homeworld Destroyers:

Homeworld 2 Hiigaran Destroyer





Homeworld 1 Revelation class Destroyer

[Arijharn]

Talking about Destroyers and all is way too academic isn't it, as in the codex/books it only lists these craft types:



Corvettes

Fighters/Interceptors

Frigates

Cruisers

Dreadnoughts/Carriers

[GnusmasTHX]

I only played Homeworld 2 enough to remember the units, Homeworld 1 and Cata not so much. I suddenly have an urge to play it again, the story was so epic.So sad when you had to leave the Pride of Hiigara.

Back on topic: the SR2 is a frigate. It doesn't need the Thanix cannons, but they're still an upgrade over the Javelins, and would still be better if over a mass accelerator cannon.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:41 .

[Burdokva]

God, why do people try to use other, even messed up sci-fi classifications than real-world one?!

....................(SR-1).............(SR-2)..................... /->Helicopter carrier cruiser
...................................................................../
Corvette -> Frigate -> Destroyer/Escort -> Cruiser -> Heavy Cruiser -> Battleship
................................................................................\\
.................................................................................\\->Battlecruiser

.........................................................................................-> Aircraft Carrier

Sorry, looks really messed up when I posted it. Should be more clear now.

By the way, I love both FreeSpace and Homeworld, but they're pretty messed up in ship class terminology. Esp. FreeSpace. 

Modifié par Burdokva, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:51 .

[Shadowomega23]

*Double post*

Modifié par Shadowomega23, 21 septembre 2010 - 11:03 .