112 réponses à ce sujet

[Shadowomega23]

Actually Freespace got it right at least from an older aera of sailing. Back when the only ships crossing the Highseas where powered by sails Cruisers where small vessels ment to Harass Merchant ships, so they ended up being off shots of Frigates. Homeworld got it also right as Destroyers are ment to take on other ships in ship to ship combat, Destroyers can face down any ship below their class with ease except strike craft (unless you have PDS or Complex mods) even take on their own class. Homeworld 2 Core has a Heavy Cruiser and Complex allows to people to turn that Heavy Cruiser into a Battlecruiser with new weapons systems. It even adds in a Juggernaught and Dreadnaught class ship. Though the Hiigarran Juggernaught is a suicide fire ship with 4 200 Megaton Thermal Nukes built inside.

[Moiaussi]

wulf3n wrote...

 I have been reading up on the codex entries about the thanix cannons, due to a recent discussion, and somethings don't make sense.

The codex entry about the thanix cannons states "rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate" now that's an impressive piece of new technology i admit, and could prove invaluable in a battle against the reapers, but the part that concerns me is "rivaling a cruiser's firepower" which to me means that a standard cruisers firepower is approximately equal.

Now even though i've yet to find any written classification of the Normandy SR-2, the available evidence points to it being a cruiser.

So i ask. Why do we need the thanix cannons?

1) Because we are up against a higher tech race that uses similar tech to the Thanix cannon.

2) More importantly, because the Normandy is still a warship. You could just as easily ask 'why does the Normandy need any guns at all?'

3) It rivals a cruiser's firepower... until the navies start outfitting cruisers with larger versions, and building ships of all size classes with much larger spinal mount versions. The Normandy is likely undergunned for the potential of that tech.

[Mondo47]

Because there's not enough room on board for a stellar converter?

Modifié par Mondo47, 21 septembre 2010 - 11:09 .

[Moiaussi]

adam_grif wrote...

The SR2 doesn't have any cruiser guns, even if it is cruiser length.

The Thanix gun corrects that issue.


ATTENTION PEOPLE:

THE COLLECTOR CRUISER IS NOT A CRUISER.

Why they call it a cruiser when it is CLEARLY over 1 KM in length (and thus into Dreadnought territory) is unknown. Once again the writers and art team fail to communicate.

Actually it is not that the cruiser isn't a cruiser, but that the models are not all to an identical scale. Compare any of them with the DA model for proof.

[Breakdown Boy]

SR2 is not a cruiser, it is piloted by one person and if you listen correctly, EDI states that it is dificult to land on HIGH GRAVITY worlds, which I assume are not like Earth which is moderate.



THus the SR@ could land on other world with lesser gravity but would consum more energy because of encreased size, hence the Kodiak is there.



The thanix works on the SR2 because of the huge Mass Effect Core it has, which is bigger then normal firgates (see save burning ship side quest.).

[Annihilator27]

wulf3n wrote...

 I have been reading up on the codex entries about the thanix cannons, due to a recent discussion, and somethings don't make sense.

The codex entry about the thanix cannons states "rivaling a cruiser's firepower but mountable on a fighter or frigate" now that's an impressive piece of new technology i admit, and could prove invaluable in a battle against the reapers, but the part that concerns me is "rivaling a cruiser's firepower" which to me means that a standard cruisers firepower is approximately equal.

Now even though i've yet to find any written classification of the Normandy SR-2, the available evidence points to it being a cruiser.

So i ask. Why do we need the thanix cannons?

To punch a hole through that collector ship.

[wulf3n]

wow, 4 pages. good work people, this has been quite amusing.



Now im curious, if the lack of information is prudent evidence to the non existence of the SR2 MAC. Why would TIM not include such a standard armament.



Hey shepard, look at this new ship i've got you, It cost us a fortune getting the material for that stealth drive core, that doesn't seem to work against the enemy im sending you against, but don't worry i've given it a butt load of armour so it can take a pounding, unfortunately its got less bite than a small frigate, but hey, you were gonna go buy stuff for it any way right?

[adam_grif]

Moiaussi wrote...

Actually it is not that the cruiser isn't a cruiser, but that the models are not all to an identical scale. Compare any of them with the DA model for proof.

Why are you talking about models? I am talking about the fact that the collector cruiser is easily over a K in length, as you can tell when you're inside the thing on the mission.  Which makes it as big or bigger than most dreadnoughts.

wow, 4 pages. good work people, this has been quite amusing.



Now
im curious, if the lack of information is prudent evidence to the non
existence of the SR2 MAC. Why would TIM not include such a standard
armament.

I have no idea. But it's possible that it does have wing mounted mass accelerators, which might have been what you shoot at the Oculus / Cruiser in the final battle if you don't have the Thanix gun.

The two competing explanations are Mass Accelerator guns and Javelin missiles. Both have good arguments for and against. The visual effects look nothing like any missiles or MA's we've previously seen, EXCEPT that it looks exactly like a geth pulse weapon and has a similar sound.

Modifié par adam_grif, 21 septembre 2010 - 12:43 .

[Burdokva]

Well, that's a nice paradox - the mass accelerator cannons at the Battle of the Citadel were portrayed as missiles or slow moving projectiles by the cutscenes, while SR-2's Javelin torpedoes look like MAC rounds in the assault of the Collector base.

[Itkovian]

Once thing I've learned watching ME1 and 2 CGI sequences is to not trust the CGI artists to get the technology and lore of the ME world right.

The battle of the citadel is the perfect example of the CGI team and the storytelling team not being at all on the same page. Or, at the very least, an example of the CGI Team throwing away continuity for the sake of spiffy visual effects (though I think MAC rounds can be quite as spiffy).

In short, don't pay too much attention to how weapons look in the big CGI sequences. Odds are it does not match what is actually written in the ME lore.

Itkovian

[PsyrenY]

Anacronian Stryx wrote...

Normandy SR1 was a Frigate, what SR2 is.. well ask TIM but i guess it's a Frigate as well.

Jack agrees when you recruit her.
"D'you know what kind of damage I can do aboard a frigate?"

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:56 .

[Moiaussi]

adam_grif wrote...

Why are you talking about models? I am talking about the fact that the collector cruiser is easily over a K in length, as you can tell when you're inside the thing on the mission.  Which makes it as big or bigger than most dreadnoughts.

Mostly because others were comparing the model sizes. As for the length of the collector cruiser, most of the internal space is collection pods, so maybe it is designated a cruiser based on assumed armament? Or maybe that is what the collectors call a cruiser?

Or more likely, the writers were simply being inconsistant.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 21 septembre 2010 - 04:19 .

[TuringPoint]

I'm still not convinced the codex is wrong, especially when all your arguments use the codex, or unsupported evidence from the Wiki.

In other words, you may be right about the size of the ship - maybe it's a smallish cruiser, or maybe it's a largish frigate.  That is elementary, and while the wiki/codex mention size and ability to land on different planets, that may only be a point of reference for describing the different types of vessel.  It stands to reason that however it is classified is probably due to its purposes as a military type of vessel.  In terms of purpose, it is the same as the Normandy SR1, with some extended capabilities that make it larger.  It doesn't have the same firepower as a cruiser to begin with, and the implication of a cruiser weight vessel as seen in the codex is a vessel with the firepower of several frigates, but nowhere near the maneuverability.  The SR2 clearly has great maneuverability, rivaling the fighter-sized oculus.  So functionally it is still a frigate and always will be.

Modifié par Alocormin, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:45 .

[Burdokva]

Too lazy to do it, plus math is not where I'm best, but you know how to find at the bare minimum for the size of the Collector cruiser? There was a log (or was it one of the comics?) that stated the precise number of human colonists abducted so far, plus the population of other large colonies. Shepard and EDI believe the population of human colonies won't be enough to fill a single Collector cruiser. Take average human size and volume of all of those colonists and we can get the minimum volume of that ship. Minus engines, weapons, armor etc. Just the bare minimum.

[Aedan_Cousland]

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

The Normandy is a Heavy Frigate at best. Besides the fact that it's comparitvely small size and crew compliment marks it as a frigate, humans have naming conventions for military grade vessels. Frigates, like the Normandy, are named after famous battles in human history. Cruisers on the other hand are named after cities on Earth. If the Normandy SR2 were in fact a Cruiser, it wouldn't be called the Normandy. It would be called the  Canberra or the Madrid, or something similar.

The SR2 is a Ceberus vessel, not Alliance. Those conventions don't apply. In the end Shepard just named it after his old ship.

If all the evidence pointed to the SR2 being a cruiser rather than a frigate, I'd agree with you that Cerberus must have just thrown the Alliance naming conventions out the window when building the Normandy SR2. But the opposite is true, and it appears that Cerberus stuck with the Alliance naming conventions. Besides the Normandy bearing a name that normally would mark it as a frigate, it's size, combat role, and crew compliment suggest it is a frigate as well. Jack also refers to the Normandy as a frigate.

wulfn wrote...

Normandy applies to both naming conventions, so it could still be either.

The name Normandy wouldn't apply to the naming conventions for both frigates and cruisers, as Normandy is a region in France but not a city. Cruiser names are taken specifically from the names of cities, rather than general geographic regions. If Normandy were a cruiser and it borrowed it's name from the same region of France (Normandy), it would probably be called the Caen or the Rouen instead. (the two biggest cities in Normandy)

Modifié par Aedan_Cousland, 21 septembre 2010 - 09:26 .

[GnusmasTHX]

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

GnusmasTHX wrote...

Aedan_Cousland wrote...

The Normandy is a Heavy Frigate at best. Besides the fact that it's comparitvely small size and crew compliment marks it as a frigate, humans have naming conventions for military grade vessels. Frigates, like the Normandy, are named after famous battles in human history. Cruisers on the other hand are named after cities on Earth. If the Normandy SR2 were in fact a Cruiser, it wouldn't be called the Normandy. It would be called the  Canberra or the Madrid, or something similar.

The SR2 is a Ceberus vessel, not Alliance. Those conventions don't apply. In the end Shepard just named it after his old ship.

If all the evidence pointed to the SR2 being a cruiser rather than a frigate, I'd agree with you that Cerberus must have just thrown the Alliance naming conventions out the window when building the Normandy SR2. But the opposite is true, and it appears that Cerberus stuck with the Alliance naming conventions. Besides the Normandy bearing a name that normally would mark it as a frigate, it's size, combat role, and crew compliment suggest it is a frigate as well. Jack also refers to the Normandy as a frigate.

Cerberus didn't name the SR2, Shepard did. I'm not saying it's a cruiser (I've been saying the opposite this entire thread), I'm just saying that it's the ALLIANCE that has those naming conventions, they don't  necessarily apply to Cerberus vessels (or any other non-Alliance humans). Cerberus just let Shepard name it, and he named it the Normandy, not because he needed to adhere to Alliance conventions, but because he liked it.

He could've named it the Intrepid Cow and the Alliance couldn't and wouldn't do anything about it. It's not their ship.

Modifié par GnusmasTHX, 21 septembre 2010 - 10:40 .

[Chiyeko]

considering all we see in the game are frigates, cruiser and dreads/carriers.



It is very easy to give the answer here: It is a frigate.



Dreads/carriers are listed at 800 to 1000M in length. This is the only information ever given on ship sizes.

Cruisers are around 400-500M in length fitting their role and purpose and this can been seen in the citadel battle. The destiny asention is HUGE, but it not the the mass that matter nut the length as that is what the main gun is all about and thus 800-1000M (more likely the last)



This puts frigs in the 100-250m territory. So the Normandy with 218M would be a big frigate no doubt, but still a frigate. Not to forget cruisers cannot land on any planet, frigates can.



Also a note on the dreads it show again that humans are smart, instead of building dread with one huge gun they build dreads with a lot of still huge, but much smaller guns so they can broad side the enemy cruisers which are the real threat in any space battle. It is the cruisers that make up the fleets dreads are just big guns to scare people of.

[brfritos]

People are arguing about class ships, fighters, gravity and such, but the OP question still stands: why the SR-2 needs the Thanix cannons?

They clearly aren't needed to destroy the Collector Ship.

[robtheguru]

The Thanix Cannons are the latest development of high powered weaponry in the galaxy. It is a scaled down version of a Reaper weapon so it's going to be pretty awesome. I see no reason why not use it? It allows the Normandy to fire from a further range than its basic Torpedos and it has much more power. Everything points to 'USE IT!'



If you mean literally why is it needed within the purpose of the game, then it is to stop one of your crew getting killed.

[brfritos]

robtheguru wrote...

The Thanix Cannons are the latest development of high powered weaponry in the galaxy. It is a scaled down version of a Reaper weapon so it's going to be pretty awesome. I see no reason why not use it? It allows the Normandy to fire from a further range than its basic Torpedos and it has much more power. Everything points to 'USE IT!'

If you mean literally why is it needed within the purpose of the game, then it is to stop one of your crew getting killed.

I didn't said you don't have to use it and the answear is pretty much yours: to been able to kill the ship from a further distance.

But then why the shockwave disable Normandy's mass effect fields generators if I'm at a safe distance?

[Chiyeko]

brfritos wrote...

People are arguing about class ships, fighters, gravity and such, but the OP question still stands: why the SR-2 needs the Thanix cannons?

They clearly aren't needed to destroy the Collector Ship.

because bigger guns are always better, you are not going to use a smg against a big boss when you can use a heavy weapon (generaly speaking)

so why use weaker weapons, get in closer and thus take more damage to destroy the target when you can just blast the thing to smithereens from a save distance (that was if Joker wasn't such a show off.....)

Just like you are not going to put 200mm guns on an Iowa class if you can place 406mm guns on it.  (yes today they are worthless, back in the day they where not)

[Shadowomega23]

Actually Direct fire weapons are on the return thanks to GPS guided shells, and also with the tests of the Rail Gun. The current Rail gun fires a 5 to 6 inch solid mass shell, but I can't even guess at what the projectile speed is.

[Anacronian Stryx]

brfritos wrote...

robtheguru wrote...

The Thanix Cannons are the latest development of high powered weaponry in the galaxy. It is a scaled down version of a Reaper weapon so it's going to be pretty awesome. I see no reason why not use it? It allows the Normandy to fire from a further range than its basic Torpedos and it has much more power. Everything points to 'USE IT!'

If you mean literally why is it needed within the purpose of the game, then it is to stop one of your crew getting killed.

I didn't said you don't have to use it and the answear is pretty much yours: to been able to kill the ship from a further distance.

But then why the shockwave disable Normandy's mass effect fields generators if I'm at a safe distance?

well it's really simple :
 
story explanation= you don't know what your going up against at the other side of the omega relay, It makes sense to bring the guns that packs the biggest punch that's the Thanix.

Out of story explanation = to save a crewmate.

Now why on Earth Garrus had access to the Thanix plans is the part that makes no sense what so ever.

[Lord_Tirian]

Burdokva wrote...

God, why do people try to use other, even messed up sci-fi classifications than real-world one?!

....................(SR-1).............(SR-2)..................... /->Helicopter carrier cruiser
...................................................................../
Corvette -> Frigate -> Destroyer/Escort -> Cruiser -> Heavy Cruiser -> Battleship
................................................................................\\\\
.................................................................................\\\\->Battlecruiser

.........................................................................................-> Aircraft Carrier

Sorry, looks really messed up when I posted it. Should be more clear now.

By the way, I love both FreeSpace and Homeworld, but they're pretty messed up in ship class terminology. Esp. FreeSpace. 

Good ol' Starfleet Battles used the same classification as you posted... And having a DD with the punch of a CR is hefty.