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[MassEffect762]

iakus wrote...

Reasons to be disdappointed in ME 2 In no particular order

1) Killing off Shepard in the beginning was a heavy handed reset button

2) Shepard is ressurected using a Phased Linear Oscillation Transducer device. Then the fact that he was dead for two years is completely shoved aside in favor of killing mercs.

3) The Collectors were a potentially cool villain. Similarly shoved aside in favor of killing mercs.

4) Combat is now apparantly armor-optional. Toxic enviroments too.

5) "Ah yes, 'Reapers'..."

6) Horizon meeting with Virmire Survivor. To a lesser extent, meeting Liara on Illium.

7) Shepard spends about 80% of the game killing mercs in various corridors instead of learning about the Collectors, the Reapers, the Omega IV Relay, etc.The rest of the time is spent killing mechs, geth, vorcha, etc.

8) Squadmates are windup toys. They're only really alive in their own personal missions. Otherwise they turn into mute robots who's only purpose is to shoot your enemies.

9) Terminator Kong. "Go for the eyes, Boo! Go for the Eyes!"

10) When revelation about Collectors is made, it should be a horrifying realization. Instead it 's barely a pause before shooting resumes. Same with the fate of the colonists. Depth is sacrificed for adreneline

11 "Kinder, gentler Cerberus" who put their insignia on everything they own.

12 two words "standalone games"

I agree, I couldn't have said it better myself.

I'm sure 12 is only the tip of the iceberg.

[Newnation]

Dionkey wrote...

IMO the feeling of coming to a climax (Your mom joke inc >_>) is gone unlike ME1. ME2 when you jumped the relay it was epic and the whole suicide mission was great but ME1 did it so much better. In ME2 you felt you were alone and no one else in the galaxy cared, its like playing by yourself at a park. The battle for the citadel had everyone giving 110% to fight off Sovereign and the geth fleet. There was that suspense and the question of how they were going to do it.

I don't get it. How is that any different from crashlanding on the enemy base with only your squad knowing that anyone including Shephard could die?

[Whatever42]

Dionkey wrote...

IMO the feeling of coming to a climax (Your mom joke inc >_>) is gone unlike ME1. ME2 when you jumped the relay it was epic and the whole suicide mission was great but ME1 did it so much better. In ME2 you felt you were alone and no one else in the galaxy cared, its like playing by yourself at a park. The battle for the citadel had everyone giving 110% to fight off Sovereign and the geth fleet. There was that suspense and the question of how they were going to do it.

It was a smaller story, but not necessarily worse. The ending of ME1 was epic, frankly it saved a rather mediocre game for me, but ME2 is not the epic struggle. Its a dark, down and dirty, in the trenches struggle. I agree they could have made the boss battle better but it was never going to parallel ME1 in its scope. 

[Nightwriter]

VanguardtoDestruction wrote...

Let me go ahead and disagree with you on most points. I'll start at the beginning.

1. Maybe it's just me, but millions of colonists being abducted made me feel threatened. And once we knew the Collectors were working with the Reapers, my feelings only grew.

I did not feel the same way. Millions is an exaggeration - we're told "tens of thousands". They need to make us feel connected to these colonists in some way. They're totally faceless. The one colonist we meet is a douche. The threat needs to be personalized at least a little, we need to care about who's being taken.

That is what I believe. You're free to disagree.

VanguardtoDestruction wrote...

2. The game is a crescendo, all leading up to the suicide run. If you did everything and put time in your teamates stories you will feel very emotionally invovled in the final sequences.  I admit at times some loyalty missions felt out of place in the bigger picture, especially in that void where you have 4 or 5 loyalty missions left and only one more story mission (Reaper IFF).

It is not a story. A story is a series of events. This game is about one event, but the pause before that event lasts for 25-30 hours of gameplay.

Don't get me wrong, I loved the characters and their stories. But they felt abysmally disconnected from the plot. You can't just stop the whole progression of the story to focus on unrelated characters.

It's like if the whole plot of the Order of the Phoenix had ground to a halt to tell the story of Luna Lovegood.

VanguardtoDestruction wrote...

3. It's a game about the characters, with the end goal being the destruction of the Collectors. I think they did a great job of letting you get your team together and making you feel like you were walking into hell once you went through the Omega 4 Relay.

If it's about the Collectors, make them a motivating enemy. If it's about the characters, have them speak up beyond the narrow scope of their own loyalty missions. Give them more to say.

VanguardtoDestruction wrote...

4. Maybe to you, but I felt like I had a lot of choices once I hit Illium.

TIM sort of walks us through the plot like a trainer at a dog show. That your character's name is "Shepard" is just irony.

VanguardtoDestruction wrote...

5. I thought the destruction of the Normandy was a great start to the game, one that I had no clue about when I popped the disc in. It tied the thread between ME1 and ME2 for me.

Ah, well, I already knew it would get destroyed pre-release. I'm at a disadvantage, I already saw it as a plot restart.

But you're no longer a Spectre, you're no longer working for the Council, you're no longer working with your old allies, your friends turn on you, everything you achieved in game one is reduced to nothing. The thread of the story is lost. It's very disconcerting.

VanguardtoDestruction wrote...

6. What do you mean it achieves nothing? I know people don't like the Human Reaper or what not, but everything in the game leads up to that moment. Everything you do in the game essentially is being done so that you can save it from a threat equal to Sovereign. Sure, ME2 didn't have a "lead villain" but if you did not stop the Collectors the result would have been the same as letting Sovereign waltz into the Citadel and activating it.

Beginning of ME2: the Reapers are coming. End of ME2: the Reapers are coming.

VanguardtoDestruction wrote...

7. They rebuilt you, they have the intel, they believe in the Reapers. If Paragon, you joined because you have no other options. If Renegade, you gladly join in order to take advantage of resources etc.

It's kind of stupid that I don't try anything else. I just agree. I would have LOVED it if I had been able to go to the Council first, and hear them tell me, "We can't help you, but here's a desk job." Then have TIM go, "See?" We could even explore Shepard's character a bit by TIM asking Shepard, "Will you really ever be able to accept a desk job, Shepard? Because that's all they're offering you. Your choice."

But... "no one else will help me"? Well why don't you show me that, first?

Instead, I agree to join Cerberus right away. Without trying any other options. Then when I beseech the Council, what's their reason for turning me away? "You're working with Cerberus!" Wtf. That timeline is all screwed up.

VanguardtoDestruction wrote...

9. I felt I learned more about my Shepard through his interactions with other characters. The character interactions made him seem more human.

If a character is never asked any deep questions, if they do nothing but react without really reacting, if they never engage in interactive two-sided conversations with the people around them, I don't feel like they're a person.

[Dionkey]

Newnation wrote...

Dionkey wrote...

IMO the feeling of coming to a climax (Your mom joke inc >_>) is gone unlike ME1. ME2 when you jumped the relay it was epic and the whole suicide mission was great but ME1 did it so much better. In ME2 you felt you were alone and no one else in the galaxy cared, its like playing by yourself at a park. The battle for the citadel had everyone giving 110% to fight off Sovereign and the geth fleet. There was that suspense and the question of how they were going to do it.

I don't get it. How is that any different from crashlanding on the enemy base with only your squad knowing that anyone including Shephard could die?

Becasue ME1 brought you to the brink. If they lost that battle its over. If you would have lost at the collector base it would be very hard to win but you never know, who knows what the collectors would have done with shepards body. ME1 is like a mother lifting a burning car off her child, it's the last push. It just seemed to me like ME2 made me feel like some insane guy with frizzy hair yelling "THEIR COMING!" while no one cares.

[Nightwriter]

That's because in ME2 you're not a hero anymore and the threat's not as global or epic.

No one really cares what you're doing - most of humanity doesn't even care what you're doing.

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter, I'm jealous of your eloquence. I feel much the same way even though I like that the basic idea is that morality isn't universal. Without getting into a debate, it's my personal belief that while the Council is supposed to be the 'good guys' they aren't acting in the benefit of it's member species whereas Cerberus a group that is the 'avowed enemy' of the Council and thus bad guys are.



I just feel that there could have been more done to make us see (perhaps even subtly) that our preconceived notions of right and wrong may not be enough (and I believe that this could be one of the messages of the series).



Take for example if you save the Collector Base. Every single one of your crewmates criticise your decision, but not one of them offered a workable solution to the problem. Not even Mordin who's whole loyalty was based off the concept of moral ambiguity.

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

Nightwriter, I'm jealous of your eloquence. I feel much the same way even though I like that the basic idea is that morality isn't universal. Without getting into a debate, it's my personal belief that while the Council is supposed to be the 'good guys' they aren't acting in the benefit of it's member species whereas Cerberus a group that is the 'avowed enemy' of the Council and thus bad guys are.

I just feel that there could have been more done to make us see (perhaps even subtly) that our preconceived notions of right and wrong may not be enough (and I believe that this could be one of the messages of the series).

Take for example if you save the Collector Base. Every single one of your crewmates criticise your decision, but not one of them offered a workable solution to the problem. Not even Mordin who's whole loyalty was based off the concept of moral ambiguity.

I think we can all agree the Collector base thing was a little bit botched in regard to squad comments. You generally shouldn't have characters going, "You should keep the base/that was the wrong decision!"

Personally, I never felt like the Council respresented the right or good way, but they were the way I wanted to stick with because they represented the galactic crush of species and cultures and morals and ideas. I dig that.

The Council was like a chorus of voices to me, and Cerberus was only one voice. It felt like a step down.

[Whatever42]

Nightwriter wrote...

That's because in ME2 you're not a hero anymore and the threat's not as global or epic.

No one really cares what you're doing - most of humanity doesn't even care what you're doing.

I don't think you can quite claim that. You spend almost the whole game in the Terminus systems, where you're not exactly a hero because you saved the citadel. But on the citadel, c-sec bends over for you, a merchant gushes at you, reporters want to talk with you. My colonist shepard is having his likeness put on the colony seal. Everyone and their dog emails you. 

Its simply that no one really know what you're doing (or even that you're still alive). The council and the alliance aren't telling them. And Shepard, quite wisely, isn't running around screaming the reaper are coming! When you run into Gianna, though, she assumes you're up to something important and asks about it. Its isolating but I don't think humanity has quite abandoned you.

[Nightwriter]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

That's because in ME2 you're not a hero anymore and the threat's not as global or epic.

No one really cares what you're doing - most of humanity doesn't even care what you're doing.

I don't think you can quite claim that. You spend almost the whole game in the Terminus systems, where you're not exactly a hero because you saved the citadel. But on the citadel, c-sec bends over for you, a merchant gushes at you, reporters want to talk with you. My colonist shepard is having his likeness put on the colony seal. Everyone and their dog emails you. 

Its simply that no one really know what you're doing (or even that you're still alive). The council and the alliance aren't telling them. And Shepard, quite wisely, isn't running around screaming the reaper are coming! When you run into Gianna, though, she assumes you're up to something important and asks about it. Its isolating but I don't think humanity has quite abandoned you.

It's not really about the recognition you get from people on the street (which, in reality, isn't much). It's about whether the game makes you feel like your mission is important and worthy of recognition.

The Council? Doesn't care. Alliance? Doesn't care. Most of the galaxy? Doesn't care.

You go from saving the galaxy to saving a few Terminus colonies. Big step down.

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...


Personally, I never felt like the Council respresented the right or good way, but they were the way I wanted to stick with because they represented the galactic crush of species and cultures and morals and ideas. I dig that.

That's true, I save the Council in the first game merely because of thoughts centered around the whole 'continuity of government' angle and theorized that should the worst come out of the Citadel (i.e., the Reapers) then at least the governing bodies would escape and we might have a better chance at a unified response.

When I say 'good' I take that as meaning it's because it's in the open (although it's still rather exclusive), and would maybe safe to assume that at least some transparency is involved while making 'galactic reaching' decisions.

[PWENER]

Aweasome... NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kusy]

@ the toppic name...



I don't see connection between ayone disliking Mass Efect 2 story and liking Mass Effect 3 story?

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Nightwriter wrote...

I think we can all agree the Collector base thing was a little bit botched in regard to squad comments. You generally shouldn't have characters going, "You should keep the base/that was the wrong decision!"

Nah, Night, I think you're too close in that you can't see the wood from the trees. They just basically feel that what is happening with the Illusive Man just isn't right and that is overall reflected in their comments.

When someone like TIM goes a little psycho (As he did at the end) then most people will say: "yeah, blow it, the guys gonna be more hassle than hes worth".

[Nightwriter]

Arijharn wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...


Personally, I never felt like the Council respresented the right or good way, but they were the way I wanted to stick with because they represented the galactic crush of species and cultures and morals and ideas. I dig that.

That's true, I save the Council in the first game merely because of thoughts centered around the whole 'continuity of government' angle and theorized that should the worst come out of the Citadel (i.e., the Reapers) then at least the governing bodies would escape and we might have a better chance at a unified response.

When I say 'good' I take that as meaning it's because it's in the open (although it's still rather exclusive), and would maybe safe to assume that at least some transparency is involved while making 'galactic reaching' decisions.

I saved the Council because I honestly thought it was more interesting to keep them.

The Council represents the interaction of all these different species. It's kind of like killing off the Federation. What's interesting is watching how all the different groups interrelate. Killing them is like killing everyone else in the room - you're making your story experience very lonely.

But yes, I do think the Council is "good" because of the reason you mention. I wouldn't say it's totally open, but it's at least more open than Cerberus. I like democracy. The Council is a far cry from democracy, but it's a lot closer to it than Cerberus. Another reason I'd support them over Cerberus is because their goal is galactic stability, and not the domination of any one race.

[Nightwriter]

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I think we can all agree the Collector base thing was a little bit botched in regard to squad comments. You generally shouldn't have characters going, "You should keep the base/that was the wrong decision!"

Nah, Night, I think you're too close in that you can't see the wood from the trees. They just basically feel that what is happening with the Illusive Man just isn't right and that is overall reflected in their comments.

When someone like TIM goes a little psycho (As he did at the end) then most people will say: "yeah, blow it, the guys gonna be more hassle than hes worth".

Something like that would've been nice. Instead you get a total 180.

There's no, "I say, after seeing TIM's megalomaniacal eye gleam, I have reconsidered my position, Shepard..."

[JohnnyBeGood2]

Nightwriter wrote...

JohnnyBeGood2 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I think we can all agree the Collector base thing was a little bit botched in regard to squad comments. You generally shouldn't have characters going, "You should keep the base/that was the wrong decision!"

Nah, Night, I think you're too close in that you can't see the wood from the trees. They just basically feel that what is happening with the Illusive Man just isn't right and that is overall reflected in their comments.

When someone like TIM goes a little psycho (As he did at the end) then most people will say: "yeah, blow it, the guys gonna be more hassle than hes worth".

Something like that would've been nice. Instead you get a total 180.

There's no, "I say, after seeing TIM's megalomaniacal eye gleam, I have reconsidered my position, Shepard..."

hmmm, true.

so without re-reading most of the thread... is your thought that it needed to be a meatier text under the game?

[Nightwriter]

What do you mean? Are you asking me if I thought the plot should be more substantial?

[Arijharn]

I thought the plot as a whole was good, I just thought it was just so divorced from each other. The only problem I thought was with the Collectors. Because I hadn't read the books or read the comics or any of that 'bonus' stuff, there introduction was completely left field for me.



I liked that when TIM contacted you you felt a degree of urgency about it, but the Collectors should of felt more insidious personally to not just the main storyline, but also reflected somewhat with the loyalty missions or the backstory with the universe at large.

[Nightwriter]

I didn't think the plot was good because everything it was built around was meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Ultimately it's about stopping the Collectors' plan, which is what? To make a human Reaper. This is the core of the whole plot, but they never tell you what the hell they were planning with this Reaper, and it comes out of nowhere. If the human Reaper is an impotent plot element, and the whole plot's built off of it, what does that say for the plot?

Compare this to ME1, where "using the Conduit to access the Citadel and open the relay" is a clearly understandable goal of the enemy's.

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

I didn't think the plot was good because everything it was built around was meaningless in the grand scheme of things.

Ultimately it's about stopping the Collectors' plan, which is what? To make a human Reaper. This is the core of the whole plot, but they never tell you what the hell they were planning with this Reaper, and it comes out of nowhere. If the human Reaper is an impotent plot element, and the whole plot's built off of it, what does that say for the plot?

Compare this to ME1, where "using the Conduit to access the Citadel and open the relay" is a clearly understandable goal of the enemy's.

But... what difference does it make? You know you have to stop it because you assume (correctly?) that it wants to do something bad™ and not because it wants to make the largest chocolate muffin in the galaxy that feeds all the orphans on Earth with love and tasty treats.

Considering we know what the Reapers plan to do (well, high level speaking at least) then I would suggest that intimate knowledge of what the Human Reaper's purpose was to be is largely unimportant in and of itself. Hell, maybe it was made to be human-like served primarily as a psychological warfare tactic.

[Nightwriter]

Put it this way - my disbelief was already strained as it was. The whole thread of the story had been lost and I was following this totally different trail with a "wtf" expression firmly in place. I never understood why my squadmates would even be interested in the Collectors or why I was doing anything.



So to arrive at the end of that road, waiting to see what it was all for, for it all to make sense, and instead witness a giant human Reaper popping out of nowhere, it's... well it doesn't do much for my "wtf" expression. I need for this to make sense because nothing had really made sense before that point.

[Arijharn]

Nightwriter wrote...

Put it this way - my disbelief was already strained as it was. The whole thread of the story had been lost and I was following this totally different trail with a "wtf" expression firmly in place. I never understood why my squadmates would even be interested in the Collectors or why I was doing anything.

So to arrive at the end of that road, waiting to see what it was all for, for it all to make sense, and instead witness a giant human Reaper popping out of nowhere, it's... well it doesn't do much for my "wtf" expression. I need for this to make sense because nothing had really made sense before that point.

Ahh, so your wtf moment is the same as my wtf moment when 'Necron' came along in FF9...

Well, maybe not quite, because up till Necron I was pretty comfortable with the story as it was.

[Nightwriter]

Sounds like they caught you with a surprise punch. But the human Reaper for me was like a kick when I was already down.

I kind of felt like I was on an acid trip of Shepard's or something. I realize I'm at a disadvantage because I played ME1 first.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 25 septembre 2010 - 04:56 .