528 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

The topic tends to come up vaguely in the plures thema about Paragon/Renegade choices, but it's never had quite as much discussion as I'd like, so here goes.

I don't think her begging for mercy was an act, precisely. She said that she joined in part to shoot up bad guys; the volus who sold her and her compatriots a lethally toxic drug without informing them of its  toxicity may well have counted as that. Morally, it's no different from  the Renegade choice of forcing the batarian bartender who poisoned you to drink his own medicine, and not a whole lot worse than the Paragon one of goading the nearby turian into shooting him.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:20 .

[coinop25]

Interesting argument, but kind of hard to buy it given the other evidence we have about her.



She claims she never shot anyone. She wouldn't be wearing that uniform if she hadn't. That's not an evil-level offense in Shepard's world, as you point out, but we never get the impression that she's killing out of some sense of justice. She kills in pure glee, referring to her victim as "that ridiculous volus," completely dehumanizing (... devolusizing?) him.

[PsyrenY]

I think she's a jerk, but I still think outright blowing her away as a Paragon is metagaming.

[Xilizhra]

Actually, she never claims that she didn't kill anyone. What she says is that she didn't fire her weapon once, in a context definitely meaning that she never tried to shoot you. I also think that when she made the recording, she was on a major whatever-the-asari-equivalent-of-adrenaline-is rush; her tone certainly implied it. I'm not saying that she's innocent or that she shouldn't be arrested, but I don't think that she deserves to die.



Also, I seriously doubt Zaeed's comment about Eclipse uniforms is referring to their murder habits, considering that Zaeed's murdered many more people than Elnora. I think he just wants to kill an enemy.

[wizardryforever]

coinop25 wrote...

Interesting argument, but kind of hard to buy it given the other evidence we have about her.

She claims she never shot anyone. She wouldn't be wearing that uniform if she hadn't. That's not an evil-level offense in Shepard's world, as you point out, but we never get the impression that she's killing out of some sense of justice. She kills in pure glee, referring to her victim as "that ridiculous volus," completely dehumanizing (... devolusizing?) him.

Yeah, but Renegades should be consistent, since saving Morinth is also a Renegade option.  If you're going to punish somebody on suspicion of murder, then why save somebody who has obviously killed many innocents and tried to kill Shepard?  Killing Elnora isn't as cut and dry as people try to claim, since you already know that the volus and his partner were cheating the Eclipse by selling them toxic drugs.  While she does call him a ridiculous volus, she also calls him a little bastard, which could imply that he was chosen simply because of his actions against the merc band.  There's no evidence either way.  Besides, if you let her go, she's still a rookie without any support, easily catchable by the authorities.

Modifié par wizardryforever, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:33 .

[Barquiel]

Xilizhra wrote...

I don't think her begging for mercy was an act, precisely.

I agree.

So far she has killed a drug dealer (to impress her friends). I don't think she deserves to die for that...and since Shep can't arrest her, she gets a second chance.
Samara tells Shep that she was a member of some mercenary gang, too. Maybe Elnora will reconsider her career choice as well

Modifié par Barquiel, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:46 .

[Ashrite]

meh she try to shoot me imo she deserve to die no 1 shoots me and live to see another day!!!

[Xilizhra]

Do note that drawing your gun isn't the Renegade interrupt; you do that either way.

[MrnDvlDg161]

Wouldn't you say anything when 3 individuals who are heavily armed that just took out half your Merc squad come bushing through and they draw their high powered weapons at you? Don't know about anyone else but that whole " I smoked but I didn't inhale/ I had a gun but didn't pull the trigger" deal would sound just about right in an attempt to tug on those paragon strings.



The woman would have probably shot you dead if the roles were reversed and judging by the recording you find, it was more of a thrill-kill affair, very adolescent in terms of how she spoke about killing another Alien --- and a harmless Volus at that. Think about it. She chose a slow moving --- easy target to brag about. Not like she engaged a Turian Merc or a Krogan. It was a niave game to the woman.



In some ways shooting her was aiken to shooting a young somali faction rebel with a rusty AK and not enough years behind him/her to understand nor be in such a role.

[Kid_SixXx]

We all know beforehand that Eclipse sisters don't earn their uniforms unless they have killed someone, but we don't know the details of Elnora's case.

For all we know at the time, she could be a cold blooded killer or she could've killed someone under duress after being threatened with death herself if she did not murder an innocent and earn her colors.

We don't know for sure that Elnora is telling a lie until after  we hear the audio file. Therefore I have to believe that the reason so many people kill Elnora is because they reload the game and take the Renegade option after "their Shep" gets played for a sucker so that they can "avenge" themselves.

Sure, the act of drawing her SMG probably warrants a lethal response, but listen to the Renegade Shep's comments before he kills her. Renegade Shep plans to kill her simply because she is an enemy combatant. I think Renegade Shep would've killed her even if she hadn't drawn her weapon.

I tend to go with the Paragon route because Samara seems favorably impressed when Shep figures out on his own that she is after an Ardat-Yakshi after gathering the information from Elnora..

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:50 .

[Xilizhra]

The woman would have probably shot you dead if the roles were reversed and judging by the recording you find, it was more of a thrill-kill affair, very adolescent in terms of how she spoke about killing another Alien --- and a harmless Volus at that. Think about it. She chose a slow moving --- easy target to brag about. Not like she engaged a Turian Merc or a Krogan. It was a niave game to the woman.

She could have tried to kill you when her side had the advantage of numbers, but didn't. And the volus may not have been a good combatant, but again, he knowingly sold them lethal poison without informing them of the fact. I don't doubt she enjoyed it, but it doesn't clash with her stated desire to shoot up bad guys.

We don't know for sure that Elnora is telling a lie until after we hear the audio file. Therefore I have to believe that the reason so many people kill Elnora is because they reload the game and take the Renegade option after "their Shep" gets played for a sucker so that they can "avenge" themselves.

It's interesting, and also misleading. The audio file is the last impression you get of Elnora, and thus may be the one that sticks most in the players' minds, despite the fact that it's the past Elnora and not the current one.

In some ways shooting her was aiken to shooting a young somali faction
rebel with a rusty AK and not enough years behind him/her to understand
nor be in such a role.

Kind of like the Omega would-be merc whose gun Paragon Shepard breaks?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2010 - 05:57 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

Look your wearing a uniform. Right? You just did heavy combat with individuals wearing that same uniform so you already know the order went out to go ahead and engage your team.

She shouldn't have been wearing the uniform and knowingly stood in the combat zone. She wanted the Merc life and she got it, its just not what it was cracked up to be as reality hit. Sure she walks away perhaps....then what? She'll be back getting more death points --- and maybe, possibly finding you again.

In that particular mode, there's no time to 2nd guess so you either drop the person who is wearing the same uniforms that you've been in firefights previously to get there or you hesitate and risk getting killed --- possibly a team mate either getting critically injured.

In the end that's how I see it, the story afterward is the sad part of the circumstance.

Modifié par MrnDvlDg161, 21 septembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

"It's interesting, and also misleading. The audio file is the last impression you get of Elnora, and thus may be the one that sticks most in the players' minds, despite the fact that it's the past Elnora and not the current one."



So in some magic wand like manner, the audio of her somehow doesn't concern the current Elnora because....



...she was caught unprepared and then decided to see if she could save her own self?



I call that self-preservation to kill another day.

[Xilizhra]

Pfeh.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 21 septembre 2010 - 06:21 .

[Xilizhra]

Xilizhra wrote...

In that particular mode, there's no time to 2nd guess so you either drop
the person who is wearing the same uniforms that you've been in
firefights previously to get there or you hesitate and risk getting
killed --- possibly a teammate either getting critically injured.

You draw your weapon either way; the renegade interrupt is simply saying you're going to kill her. You don't risk yourself unduly by not taking it.

So in some magic wand like manner, the audio of her somehow doesn't concern the current Elnora because....



...she was caught unprepared and then decided to see if she could save her own self?



I call that self-preservation to kill another day.

No, I think that she genuinely didn't know what she was getting into and what all of this would entail. If I had to guess, I'd say she joined Eclipse because of the war between them and the Anhur People's Liberation Army, or that slaveholding mini-empire that got up to some extremely nasty things. Eclipse has genuinely done good work in the past, so... yeah.

[MrnDvlDg161]

In some ways shooting her was aiken to shooting a young somali faction

rebel with a rusty AK and not enough years behind him/her to understand

nor be in such a role.





Kind of like the Omega would-be merc whose gun Paragon Shepard breaks?



==================================================================



In a situation where Shepard had more control over and had a better position to act, having not been in any prolonged extent of combat before entering the room.



That kid and the Asari kid were two very different events.



But in a sense that is also the same comparison --- that guy was obviously in over his head and he telegraphed being clumsy if not unfit for combat.

[MrnDvlDg161]

"No, I think that she genuinely didn't know what she was getting into and what all of this would entail. If I had to guess, I'd say she joined Eclipse because of the war between them and the Anhur People's Liberation Army, or that slaveholding mini-empire that got up to some extremely nasty things. Eclipse has genuinely done good work in the past, so... yeah."



Well if you support Eclipse that settles it, but those are many assumptions non the least because your adding things in to it to justify it. There isn't some smoking gun answer here either, I would focus my self on the physical moment of it all as the door opens and Shepard meets this unknown Eclipse person after having battled previous Eclipse members in fire fights.

[Whatever42]

I play my renegade as success at any costs with no patience for crooks or idiots. However, I don't have the Judge Dread mentality that I can just shoot down anyone. Elnora isn't in my way, she is not a threat, She is so ridiculously out of my league she will never be a threat, so I just leave her.

On my paragon runs, I have no idea that she is not some stupid kid in over her head and I let her go as well.

I think you really need a judge, jury and executioner type mentality to kill Shiala, Elnora, etc. I just don't have that, even my renegade. Besides, Volus annoy me. I might find shooting one entertaining too.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 21 septembre 2010 - 06:26 .

[Xilizhra]

It's not like I support Eclipse; I'm just giving reasons as to why Elnora might have done so before she found out what they were really like.

[wizardryforever]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Look your wearing a uniform. Right? You just did heavy combat with individuals wearing that same uniform so you already know the order went out to go ahead and engage your team.

She shouldn't have been wearing the uniform and knowingly stood in the combat zone. She wanted the Merc life and she got it, its just not what it was cracked up to be as reality hit. Sure she walks away perhaps....then what? She'll be back getting more death points --- and maybe, possibly finding you again.

In that particular mode, there's no time to 2nd guess so you either drop the person who is wearing the same uniforms that you've been in firefights previously to get there or you hesitate and risk getting killed --- possibly a team mate either getting critically injured.

In the end that's how I see it, the story afterward is the sad part of the circumstance.

Wow, that's a very "take no prisoners!" way to look at it, and needlessly bloody.  She obviously hadn't been shooting at you, since she was hiding in that room, and she leaves her weapon and runs if you let her go.  She obviously isn't a threat to you at that point, so unless you have metagame knowledge or choose to judge her for doing the same types of things you do (for different reasons), there's no reason to kill her.

Also I couldn't help but think of the following situation when I read your post, it illustrates the folly of shoot first, ask questions later attitudes:
Shepard: "We need to make a sweep for that lost operative, who knows where the Eclipse are keeping her."
[Operative comes out, wearing a pilfered uniform] Operative:  "Over here!"
Shepard: "Die scum!"  [Shepard blows her to smithereens]
Miranda: "uh, Shepard, that was her."
Shepard: "Shouldn't have been wearing a uniform then."

Modifié par wizardryforever, 21 septembre 2010 - 06:27 .

[PsyrenY]

Xilizhra wrote...
No, I think that she genuinely didn't know what she was getting into and what all of this would entail. If I had to guess, I'd say she joined Eclipse because of the war between them and the Anhur People's Liberation Army, or that slaveholding mini-empire that got up to some extremely nasty things. Eclipse has genuinely done good work in the past, so... yeah.

I'm with you on the larger point but I think you're reading too much into things here. Elnora more likely wants to be in Eclipse simply for the thrill of it.

- The young Asari outside Gateway Personal Defense is eager to join Eclipse because "Eclipse girls never lack for company."
- If Aethyta is to be believed, most Maidens end up either as dancers or mercenaries; we can consider her an authority on Asari culture.
- Of the Big 3 Merc Bands, Eclipse is the only one that recruits Asari (and is the one with the largest Ilium presence as a result) making it a logical choice.

[Xilizhra]

Oh, yes, she would have been in it mostly for the thrill. I'm just saying that there's good reason for her to think that there'd be bad guys for her to shoot.

[crimzontearz]

uhm......



no, she is a cowardly opportunist. She retreats after seeing shepard mow down her unit (her unit comes out from around a corner through a door and they usually get slaughtered in 5 seconds..... knowing full well all other units already got massacred and that as such her own team has ZERO chance in hell she hid).



she draws her gun and puts it down solely because she KNOWS she is an unshielded target against three heavily shielded assailants



she has no issue killing the Volus, yes, the Volus was a swindler BUT all eclipse merchs get their uniform by committing a murder, that her murder happened to be perpetrated against another criminal is just coincidental. You have no idea wether or not she would have objected to kill the chief inspector or Samara (if she had the chance).



She speaks of the murder with pride, boasting her superiority to the Volus and the fact she ambushed him and that her friends will be sooooooo jealous. Also, the murder happened only the night prior, the AML Demeter left before the murder, Elnore knew of the Ardat Yakshi being smuggled BEFORE being sent on her firt hit and she did it anyways which means she only started caring about that when Shepard pointed a gun to her face (to me at least).



Yeah I never kill her but I hope she gets hers soon

[PsyrenY]

Xilizhra wrote...

Oh, yes, she would have been in it mostly for the thrill. I'm just saying that there's good reason for her to think that there'd be bad guys for her to shoot.

I don't think she really cared who she ended up shooting. She certainly didn't balk at blowing Dakni Kur's suit open, nor show any signs of remorse afterward.

A better defense for Elnora is that she is little more than a juvenile. The GWD Asari seeking to join Eclipse is 60; even if Elnora has 20 years on her, she is still considered a child by Asari standards, judging from Liara's frustration at being treated like one in ME1.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 21 septembre 2010 - 06:40 .

[Nerevar-as]

Anyone knows if there is a save flag for this? I feel curious about her future (if she has one), whether she learned the lesson or not.



When you take the interrupt she goes agressive rather than pleading, so I´m not certain if she had realized what she had gotten into or it was just an act to get out when she realized Shepard was way out of her league.