528 réponses à ce sujet

[Zaxares]

^Basically that. If the Renegade interrupt was basically shooting first as soon as Elnora pulled out her gun, then I could justify taking it (and in fact, I would have done so on my Paragade playthroughs). However, the Renegade path in that scene is pretty much, "You're wearing the enemy uniform, so you're going to have to die."



As far as whether she's guilty of the murder or not, her audio log seems to confirm her guilt, but I wouldn't put it past Bioware to pull a switcheroo and have Elnora come on the scene AFTER the volus had actually been murdered by his own business partner, and then decided to take advantage and claim the kill anyway. Regardless, at the time of the confrontation, I had no proof that Elnora had actually done anything wrong, and my Paragon Shepard only kills when there are no other options available, so he would have let her go.

[MrnDvlDg161]

and it continues....around...and around...and around.....

[Nimander]

I just replayed it, and it's both.



*BEFORE* the Renegade Action, all we see is Elnora lift her gun. The big red renegade prompt pops up. You pull it. Your character does a dramatic 'you made your choice!' and shoots her.



So, /without metagaming/ that you know what the outcome will be (IE: The first time), I can see people choosing that Renegade Prompt because hey, she lifted her gun. I can also see some folks going 'Eh, some of their Renegade speech sucks, but she lifted her gun so I'll do it anyway', once they know. To others, the speech is totally fine. To others, not shooting her and taking a risk is fine.



Can we agree that each is valid, or is this going to go around and around into 'My choice is the only right one!!!!!!' again?

[Moiaussi]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Was she part of the mission? She was hiding behind a desk whimpering in a room. Was she pinning Shepard down? Heck, Shepard's mission was to get information from the eclipse, not kill them all. He's just really lucky the information was on a datapad. I can imagine the conversation otherwise: 

"Did you get the information from Eclipse?"
"Um... no, sorry, I killed them all."
"There was no opportunity to question any?"
"Oh sure, one was alone and scared and looked like she wanted to surrender but she was pointing a gun at me and if she would have emptied two or three clips into my shields she might have hurt me so I had to kill her."

You are forgetting that there are two aspects to the mission.

"So this 'scared little girl,' did you actually ask her about the ship?"
"No... come to think of it, I didn't."
"Did you detain her for later questioning, then?"
"No, I let her go. She seemed cute and she didn't shoot me when I had her at an advantage...."
"Lovely... By the way, did you solve the murder?"
"As a matter of fact I did! It turned out to be that nice little girl"
"The one you neither shot nor otherwise detained, and indeed allowed to go completely free?"
"Yes, that's the one... did I mention she seemed nice and was nice enough not to try to shoot me when I had her captured?"

[Xilizhra]

Did you totally miss the prompt where you get to ask her about the ship name, then? She doesn't know, but...

[Moiaussi]

Nimander wrote...

I just replayed it, and it's both.

*BEFORE* the Renegade Action, all we see is Elnora lift her gun. The big red renegade prompt pops up. You pull it. Your character does a dramatic 'you made your choice!' and shoots her.

So, /without metagaming/ that you know what the outcome will be (IE: The first time), I can see people choosing that Renegade Prompt because hey, she lifted her gun. I can also see some folks going 'Eh, some of their Renegade speech sucks, but she lifted her gun so I'll do it anyway', once they know. To others, the speech is totally fine. To others, not shooting her and taking a risk is fine.

Can we agree that each is valid, or is this going to go around and around into 'My choice is the only right one!!!!!!' again?

There is also the fact that she is an enemy combatant and there is no capacity to take her into custody or otherwise secure her, an issue that seems to get completely dismissed....

[Skyblade012]

Yeah, I mean, I didn't want to do the Renegade interrupt, but then I was really upset that there are no other options except "let her go".

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Did you totally miss the prompt where you get to ask her about the ship name, then? She doesn't know, but...

I stand corrected on that issue. Did Shepard think to ask her about the murder?

I notice that again you dismiss the fact there is no possibility of taking her into custody. Good thing for the plot that the mercs didn't all surrender en masse after transmitting all data off site via tight beam transmission and subsequently deleting all sensitive files.....

In fact, they wouldn't have even had to do that... after all, the data is all in privately owned data pads. I take it your Shepard respected their right to privacy and didn't read read the captain's data pad with the ship's name, nor the shipping manifest with the evidence of smuggling, nor the recording incriminating Elnora.....

Modifié par Moiaussi, 23 septembre 2010 - 06:14 .

[Xilizhra]

I notice that again you dismiss the fact there is no possibility of taking her into custody. Good thing for the plot that the mercs didn't all surrender en masse after transmitting all data off site via tight beam transmission and subsequently deleting all sensitive files.....

Unfortunately, that is the case. However, given the choice between freedom and murder (a stupid choice, honestly), freedom is easier to undo.

[Christmas Ape]

Xilizhra wrote...
Since this never seems to sink into anyone's mind, I shall reiterate: pragmatically shooting Elnora the instant she draws her gun is not an option. What you do is give an action-movie "You're going to die" one-liner before giving her the chance to shoot you. In terms of pragmatism, the Renegade option has objectively worse results when it comes to the potential of bodily harm for Shepard.

Letting her leave because someone wrote the scene badly is as much meta-game thinking as shooting her because of the datapad. The intent is to put her down before she starts firing.

Xilizhra wrote...
Unfortunately, that is the case. However, given the choice between freedom and murder (a stupid choice, honestly), freedom is easier to undo.

Tell that to her next victim.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 23 septembre 2010 - 07:45 .

[Xilizhra]

Letting her leave because someone wrote the scene badly is as much meta-game thinking as shooting her because of the datapad. The intent is to put her down before she starts firing.

Why is it metagaming to assume that Shepard knows what she's about to do before she does it?

Tell that to her next victim.

If there is one. I find it doubtful.

[Arijharn]

Xilizhra wrote...

If there is one. I find it doubtful.

Why?

[Christmas Ape]

Xilizhra wrote...

]Letting her leave because someone wrote the
scene badly is as much meta-game thinking as shooting her because of the
datapad. The intent is to put her down before she starts firing.

Why is it metagaming to assume that Shepard knows what she's about to do before she does it?

The interrupt doesn't say "threaten, then shoot". It's just "act in the strongest fashion for mission security". Shepard may have the information that she intends to say something first, but you don't - it sure surprised me when she gave Elnora plenty of time to shoot first. Choosing to then act differently because the scene is written in such a way as to completely render your intent moot is an out-of-game influence. I'm not saying it's a cardinal sin - even my pure paragons "can bludgeon pretty hard" because the line has weight - merely that if it's a criteria for the decision it's because you have information Shepard doesn't.

Tell that to her next victim.

If there is one. I find it doubtful.

Yeah, she doesn't really seem the type. Elnora, a killer? Heavens no!

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 23 septembre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Xilizhra]

Arijharn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If there is one. I find it doubtful.

Why?

She doesn't seem the type to kill for the hell of it; she was mostly excited about getting into Eclipse, or so it seemed to me. In any case, Anaya is after her.

[singe_101]

Zaxares wrote...

^Basically that. If the Renegade interrupt was basically shooting first as soon as Elnora pulled out her gun, then I could justify taking it (and in fact, I would have done so on my Paragade playthroughs). However, the Renegade path in that scene is pretty much, "You're wearing the enemy uniform, so you're going to have to die."

As far as whether she's guilty of the murder or not, her audio log seems to confirm her guilt, but I wouldn't put it past Bioware to pull a switcheroo and have Elnora come on the scene AFTER the volus had actually been murdered by his own business partner, and then decided to take advantage and claim the kill anyway. Regardless, at the time of the confrontation, I had no proof that Elnora had actually done anything wrong, and my Paragon Shepard only kills when there are no other options available, so he would have let her go.

Well said. Or she wanted to join Eclipse and just made a deal with Pitney.

I let her go the first time, and Helena Blake, and Pitney, and the Rachni queen...no Code for me... Ayala had a better detaining record for sure.

[Xilizhra]

The interrupt doesn't say "threaten, then shoot". It's just "act in the strongest fashion for mission security". Shepard may have the information that she intends to say something first, but you don't - it sure surprised me when she gave Elnora plenty of time to shoot first. Choosing to then act differently because the scene is written in such a way as to completely render your intent moot is an out-of-game influence. I'm not saying it's a cardinal sin - even my pure paragons "can bludgeon pretty hard" because the line has weight - merely that if it's a criteria for the decision it's because you have information Shepard doesn't.

Actually, this is a flaw in the interrupt system; there's no logical reason that Shepard shouldn't know her own upcoming actions. I don't consider this metagaming to know information that you should logically know beforehand.

[singe_101]

Weren't there police at the docks, also worried about the ship's name so they don't get Samara to kill mode? They didn't stop some random Asari in the wrong clothes?

[Christmas Ape]

Xilizhra wrote...

The interrupt doesn't say "threaten, then shoot". It's just "act in the strongest fashion for mission security". Shepard may have the information that she intends to say something first, but you don't - it sure surprised me when she gave Elnora plenty of time to shoot first. Choosing to then act differently because the scene is written in such a way as to completely render your intent moot is an out-of-game influence. I'm not saying it's a cardinal sin - even my pure paragons "can bludgeon pretty hard" because the line has weight - merely that if it's a criteria for the decision it's because you have information Shepard doesn't.

Actually, this is a flaw in the interrupt system; there's no logical reason that Shepard shouldn't know her own upcoming actions. I don't consider this metagaming to know information that you should logically know beforehand.

I will begin by saying I agree it's a flaw in the interrupt system. Our definitions of this phenomenon may differ, but given that in this case the information you should "logically know beforehand" is directly contradictory to your intent when making the decision, I consider it 'fair game' to more or less pretend it didn't happen when justifying the decision. Shepard shot first, shall we say.

Modifié par Christmas Ape, 23 septembre 2010 - 08:15 .

[AntiChri5]

Its the worst interrupt in the game, because it is a choice masquerading as an interrupt.

[Christmas Ape]

AntiChri5 wrote...
Its the worst interrupt in the game, because it is a choice masquerading as an interrupt.

Excellently expressed.

[Zaxares]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Its the worst interrupt in the game, because it is a choice masquerading as an interrupt.

I can think of a few other interrupts that fall into the same category... The Renegade interrupt on Sgt. Cathka, for instance. What if I'd only wanted to knock him out instead of killing him? (As some people believe is what happened.)

[AntiChri5]

That interrupt was pretty clear.



Shep looks at Cathka, then at the welding thingy which the camera zooms in on. Enough to figure out that Shep is going to use the weldy thingy.

[Funker Shepard]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I think she's a jerk, but I still think outright blowing her away as a Paragon is metagaming.

This.

[Nimander]

And here we go again.

[cos1ne]

To me the definition of Paragon in a Bioware game is being able to meet any Paragon conversation check. Which to me is the only objective way to define whether someone plays a true paragon.



That being said my main Shepard is a Paragon according to that definition, and in fact was nearly 100% paragon in ME1. First I want to address the previous "guns pulled on Shepard" scenarios all ready mentioned in this thread.



Lizbeth Baynham- Sure she shoots me, so I go to aim my gun at her, my Shepard looks over and sees a human in a lab uniform. A moment's hesitation occurs as my Shepard weighs the information presented to him prior. First the geth have killed *everyone* in the building, secondly I'm supposed to be looking for a woman's daughter, third the woman shouts that she is sorry to have shot me and from my years of combat experience I can be fairly certain she is not a threat at that moment.



Wrex- As mentioned earlier, at that point I know Wrex, in fact outside of the scope of the actual game Wrex would have been the closest crew member to my Shepard. I would know enough about him to know that he's just confused and I could feel confident that I could help talk my good friend down using reason. And if not Ashley makes it very clear that if the situation gets out of control she'll take care of it. Also I'd like to point out Wrex doesn't really "draw" his gun since it is all ready drawn as he's shooting random objects prior to this.



The Salarian in the tower- After assessing the situation a room full of people in office uniforms, with only one of them apparently armed, who is nervous and frenetic. However this salarian still has a gun and my shepard understanding that once disarmed he most likely won't be a threat figures that knocking the gun out of his hand before someone gets hurt is the action that is likely to lead to the least harm. Thus the renegade action works for paragons.



Elnora- Ok, here is my entire reasoning behind Elnora. First off upon getting to the towers we know that innocent office workers are getting hurt and that if I don't take care of Nassana then many more people will be hurt. (Keep in mind Shepard didn't cause her to freak out, Thane did, so Shepard is merely taking control of a situation where innocent people are getting hurt <A paragon move>)



Next Shepard is not going room to room killing everyone he can, Shepard does clear rooms yes, but that is to make certain that Eclipse cannot stab him in the back. As well as seeing if people need help escaping once he has cleared the area. <Another Paragon move>



So once he gets to the room with Elnora, he busts in and she immediately goes for the gun and points it at him, she is most definitely an enemy combatant so my shepards first reaction is to aim his gun. Now you could say that Shepard is only shooting her for wearing the wrong colors, however Shepard says "You picked the wrong side Elnora" when you choose Renegade. Now to my paragon sided brain this is a bluff, to try and draw her out, because at that point if she's sincere she'll cry out something and go into defensive mode. However she doesn't she curses at Shepard and goes full out attack. Shepard only shoots her after she shoots him in fact.



Now to use the Somali kid analogy. If this was an innocent scared kid, he would do something to indicate that cry a bit, shriek about the futility of the situation, this would show that he really is over his head, and Shepard would not shoot. HOWEVER, if the somali kid cursed at aimed/fired his AK would you really feel sorry for him in that situation. Even if he was innocent he made a stupid decision in a hotzone, and those get you killed every time. I mean it's common knowledge that soldiers kill and Shepard showed just prior to that he is more than willing to kill those who shoot him.



So to me Elnora isn't even a question, you always pull the trigger, especially if Zaaed is there, who's opinion Shepard would trust on mercenaries since he's kind of an expert on that. To me though the real questionable Merc is the one on the comms that you have the option of pushing out the window. My shepard usually lets him go after he gives him the information (after scaring him a bit) because the Merc knows that the situation is futile and takes up a submissive action. This illustrates the fact that he knows Shepard COULD kill him if necessary and as a living merc tends to make more money than a dead merc he probably won't shoot Shepard in the back and will actually leave. However that's a big risk Shepard is taking, however he isn't a murderer so he needs to make those choices every so often. Unfortunate for Elnora all she does is get aggressive when Shepard threatens (bluffs) her so she can't be trusted not to shoot him in the back.