528 réponses à ce sujet

[Kusy]

She's dead... most people pulling a gun at Shepard are anyways.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

No, i am counting on him not shooting.

And I did the same with Elnora and Telon. (Plus, not being particularly worried even if she did.)
That's the difference between my Paragon Shepard and yours, the actions of mine are consistent.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 23 septembre 2010 - 03:21 .

[Xilizhra]

No, i am counting on him not shooting

Well, there you are, then. My Shepard was easily able to stare her down..

[AntiChri5]

So Krogan Battlemaster Wrex, even covered by a shooter is less dangerous in your world than green mercenary Elnora faced with two squadmates?

He isnt just covered by a shooter, but more then fifteen, as well as unlikely to shoot as he respects me.

Whatever loss their "danger coefficient" may have suffered, it is still enough to drop Elnora in a blink.

Thinking that Thane especially could not react in time is utterly foolish. He even says he can outdraw Shepard.

And yet she still manages to get a shot off, when Wrex doesnt.......

Clothes don't make you a combatant. Cowering under the desk and not firing makes you a noncombatant.

Not clothes, armour, as well as military grade weapons and the training to go with it, as well as joining the paramilitary group you are fighting.

She joined Eclipse last night.

No, she earned her uniform last night. Besides which, that doesnt say anything about her combat capabilities or experience. Refer to my earlier point regarding Liara.

[Xilizhra]

And yet she still manages to get a shot off, when Wrex doesnt.......

Only the Renegade option leads to her shooting you, you know. This is probably because Ashley's headshot isn't stupidly set up.

[AntiChri5]

And I did the same with Elnora and Telon. (Plus, not being particularly worried even if she did.)

That's the difference between my Paragon Shepard and yours, the actions of mine are consistent.

I am counting on him not shooting due to a prior relarionship i have with the character, not how good a hugger i am. Point out where i said he is paragon? Besides which, mines actions are based on the situation at hand, not what gives me blue points. You know, based on his character, not mindlessly sticking it to the one "alignment".

Well, there you are, then. My Shepard was easily able to stare her down..

Not hard to do when someone is trying to escape.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

He isnt just covered by a shooter, but more then fifteen, as well as unlikely to shoot as he respects me.

1) No, Ash was the only one watching him. Everyone else is caught by surprise, even Kaiden who is standing next to her.
2) It doesn't matter if the entire Turian Fleet is on him if he doesn't care. And if he did care, he would have lowered his weapon.

AntiChri5 wrote...
And yet she still manages to get a shot off, when Wrex doesnt.......

A shot which does no damage at all. You're better off not metagaming with the Renegade interrupt, it hurts your argument rather than helping it.

AntiChri5 wrote...
Not clothes, armour, as well as military grade weapons and the training to go with it, as well as joining the paramilitary group you are fighting.

1) You don't get trained by the mercs until you're in. The two customers in the Citadel gun store talking about the Blue Suns make this clear.
2) How is her armor any more effective than that worn by her gunned-down teammates?
3) Her "military-grade weapon" is still an SMG. It is INCAPABLE of one-shot kills, particularly on a target as well-defended as Shepard.

AntiChri5 wrote...
No, she earned her uniform last night. Besides which, that doesnt say anything about her combat capabilities or experience. Refer to my earlier point regarding Liara.

Of course it does. It means she's only killed one person. Even Liara did better than that while she was a scientist.

[Whatever42]

You had way more backup against Wrex. You had Ashley (already ready to take him out at a moments notice), as well as Kaidan, Garrus, Liara, Tali, Captain Kirrahe and an entire squad of STG.

Earlier someone pointed out it was highly unlikely a new initiate would have access to such sensitive information, and look at that she doesnt.

They were no where near you. But obviously you're assuming that Wrex would need significant time to kill you. However, Elnora, the initiate who joined last night will insta kill you? Shepard clearly doesn't believe that because after Elnora pulls the gun, Shepard doesn't shoot in terror. He darkly tells her that she is going to die. That isn't self-defense, its executing a rather stupid woman.

But you need this information to save the galaxy. Failure to obtain it might mean that trillions die. And you're not going to take every opportunity to ask? Really? Perhaps a new initiate might know something and be more willing to talk. You don't know unless, again, you're metagaming.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 23 septembre 2010 - 03:38 .

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...
Point out where i said he is paragon?

*FACEDESK*

If you're not a paragon, then why are you in a Paragon debate thread??

[AntiChri5]

Only the Renegade option leads to her shooting you, you know. This is probably because Ashley's headshot isn't stupidly set up.

Yes, i know. My point still stands, Ashley has you better covered then the squaddies in this situation.



Could you clarify your second sentence? I dont think i am getting your meaning.

[Xilizhra]

Not hard to do when someone is trying to escape.

Precisely. No need to shoot her.

Could you clarify your second sentence? I dont think i am getting your meaning.

Ashley doesn't call out a cliched one-liner, she just shoots him.

[Moiaussi]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Was she part of the mission? She was hiding behind a desk whimpering in a room. Was she pinning Shepard down? Heck, Shepard's mission was to get information from the eclipse, not kill them all. He's just really lucky the information was on a datapad. I can imagine the conversation otherwise: 

"Did you get the information from Eclipse?"
"Um... no, sorry, I killed them all."
"There was no opportunity to question any?"
"Oh sure, one was alone and scared and looked like she wanted to surrender but she was pointing a gun at me and if she would have emptied two or three clips into my shields she might have hurt me so I had to kill her."

You are forgetting that there are two aspects to the mission.

"So this 'scared little girl,' did you actually ask her about the ship?"
"No... come to think of it, I didn't."
"Did you detain her for later questioning, then?"
"No, I let her go. She seemed cute and she didn't shoot me when I had her at an advantage...."
"Lovely... By the way, did you solve the murder?"
"As a matter of fact I did! It turned out to be that nice little girl"
"The one you neither shot nor otherwise detained, and indeed allowed to go completely free?"
"Yes, that's the one... did I mention she seemed nice and was nice enough not to try to shoot me when I had her captured?"

1) Shepard had no idea she murdered the volus at the time.
2) Murder is irrelevent. I have  serial killers and mass murderers on my crew. My mission was to obtain information.
3) I had no way of detaining her or desire to do so. I am not a police officer. I do not even know if she is guilty of a crime except she belongs to a legal organization which is suspected of being criminal. Heck, the recording would not have been enough to arrest her.
4) And we did ask her about what she knows - she didn't know.
5) It seems people are looking for any reason, paragon or renegade, to kill her because they are upset that she played them. The problem is there is no real reason so they struggle to create one. Just accept that you're metagaming.

Heck, if we were there to recruit her, the fact that she killed the volus wouldn't make us blink. Nor would her pointing a weapon at us - other people have without Shepard making a pithy one liner and shooting them in the face. We're upset because she played us.

1) Your conversation was after the fact. You can't use that and reject another probable conversation for being after the fact.
2) If you are using that defence, why are you making any issue about killing her? By the way, which serial killer do you have on the team?
3) What do you mean you are not  a police officer? You are there on authority of a Justicar and the Illium police force. The investigation has pretty much been turned over to you. There is more though than just the organization being suspected of being criminal. There is the fact that murder is an entry requirement, and that they have no qualms about shooting you.
4) Pretty sure there wasn't an option of asking her about the murder.
5) I shot her on my first playthrough. Many others here did too. How can it be metagaming without prior information?

And it is not a given that we would simply recruit her. There is an option to leave Zaheed behind. There are options to leave Grunt and Legion behind. There is a choice between Samara and her daughter. You might be upset at being played, but don't project your feelings on everyone else.

[Kid_SixXx]

AntiChri5 wrote...
Telon is not trained, not wearing armour, not an enemy combatant and obviously having a panic attack.

Sorry but Telon being an untrained civillian having a panic attack and armed with an SMG gives me more reason to shoot him over Elnora because he is more likely to shoot me out of blind self preservation.  He has no combat discipline and doesn't know when he should shoot and when he should stand down.

He also has Shepard dead to rights as Shepard doesn't get the chance to a weapon until after Telon faints or is KOed during the Renegade interrupt.  Your squaddies aren't packing when Telon draws his gun, either.

It is a more dangerous situation than the one with Elnora because Elnora is easier to reason with due to the fact that she can clearly see that she has three guns pulled on her before she draws her own and knows she's on the losing end of the equation.

If Telon isn't talked down quckly, he could open fire at any time.  Elnora draws her weapon out of pure bravado and it helps emphasize the "I'm just a poor lil' naive Asari in over my head" yarn she is about to spin for your listening pleasure.

Elnora doesn't decide to fire until Renegade Shep makes it clear that he's probably going to execute her anyway just for being an Eclipse merc and she may as well go out with an empty thermal clip rather than just stand there and get blown to pieces.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 23 septembre 2010 - 04:09 .

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Precisely. No need to shoot her.

Unless she isn't just trying to escape, or is only trying to escape because she is caught off guard in a disadvantageous position, which is a judgement call on the part of Shepard.

[PsyrenY]

Moiaussi wrote...

Unless she isn't just trying to escape, or is only trying to escape because she is caught off guard in a disadvantageous position, which is a judgement call on the part of Shepard.

Either way, it's not self-defense.

[Kid_SixXx]

Moiaussi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Precisely. No need to shoot her.

Unless she isn't just trying to escape, or is only trying to escape because she is caught off guard in a disadvantageous position, which is a judgement call on the part of Shepard.

She doesn't try to escape.  She barely twitches while Shepard is interrogating her.

She even calls him "sir" when Paragon Shep lets her off the hook.

[Whatever42]

Moiaussi wrote...

1) Your conversation was after the fact. You can't use that and reject another probable conversation for being after the fact.
2) If you are using that defence, why are you making any issue about killing her? By the way, which serial killer do you have on the team?
3) What do you mean you are not  a police officer? You are there on authority of a Justicar and the Illium police force. The investigation has pretty much been turned over to you. There is more though than just the organization being suspected of being criminal. There is the fact that murder is an entry requirement, and that they have no qualms about shooting you.
4) Pretty sure there wasn't an option of asking her about the murder.
5) I shot her on my first playthrough. Many others here did too. How can it be metagaming without prior information?

And it is not a given that we would simply recruit her. There is an option to leave Zaheed behind. There are options to leave Grunt and Legion behind. There is a choice between Samara and her daughter. You might be upset at being played, but don't project your feelings on everyone else.

1) If you're going to say that the options are not clear (you don't know what the renegade interrupt will do versus continuing the dialogue) I agree its unclear. But its not metagaming once you know. Assuming information you clearly do not learn until much later is metagaming.
2) Thane. Jack. Zaeed is all kinds of nasty. If he was willing to let those factory workers die, he's proably done similar before.
3) The justicar and police officer have no authority to authorize you to execute people. They have asked you to find the name of the ship, not deal with the eclipse menace, and then the police officer looked the other way. Even with the recording, the police officer tells you that would be insufficient evidence. Elnora simply being in an eclipse uniform is not illegal at all. They cannot provide you any legal authority to kill her. And you are still not a cop.
4) You are not risking your life in this mission to solve a murder. You are here to save the galaxy by recruiting Samara. The fact that you don't ask her about the murder demonstrates its irelevance. Getting the name of the ship is crucial. Trillions could die if you don't recruit Samara - there is no other reason for risking your life on this mission.
5) Fair enough. If renegade shepard wants to forget his mission and kill her because she was stupid and pulled a gun than that is an acceptable renegade response. Stupid but in character for a very renegade, or very jumpy, shepard.

Only a renegade shepard would shoot her. So a renegade shepard would have no problems with her past. And you still recruit Jack, who is a renowned killer and murderer.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 23 septembre 2010 - 03:55 .

[AntiChri5]

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...

He isnt just covered by a shooter, but more then fifteen, as well as unlikely to shoot as he respects me.[/quote]

1) No, Ash was the only one watching him. Everyone else is caught by surprise, even Kaiden who is standing next to her.

[/quote]

Regardless, they are still there and capable of intervening.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

2) It doesn't matter if the entire Turian Fleet is on him if he doesn't care. And if he did care, he would have lowered his weapon.

[/quote]

There is no outcome in which he shoots.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...

And yet she still manages to get a shot off, when Wrex doesnt.......

[/quote]

A shot which does no damage at all. You're better off not metagaming with the Renegade interrupt, it hurts your argument rather than helping it.

[/quote]

The point was that Ashley has him covered better then your squaddies in the Elnora situation.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...

Not clothes, armour, as well as military grade weapons and the training to go with it, as well as joining the paramilitary group you are fighting.

[/quote]

1) You don't get trained by the mercs until you're in. The two customers in the Citadel gun store talking about the Blue Suns make this clear.

[/quote]

And there is no way she could possibly have any prior knowledge?

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

2) How is her armor any more effective than that worn by her gunned-down teammates?

[/quote]

It isnt, you missed my point entirely. I was pointing out how similar they were to establish she is an enemy combatant.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

3) Her "military-grade weapon" is still an SMG. It is INCAPABLE of one-shot kills, particularly on a target as well-defended as Shepard.

[/quote]

We have already established she is a threat.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...

No, she earned her uniform last night. Besides which, that doesnt say anything about her combat capabilities or experience. Refer to my earlier point regarding Liara.[/quote]

Of course it does. It means she's only killed one person. Even Liara did better than that while she was a scientist.

[/quote]

For that statement to be true she would have to have sprung into life the day she joined Eclipse. You are completely discounting that she had a life before Eclipse.

[quote]Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...
But you need this information to save the galaxy. Failure to obtain it might mean that trillions die. And you're not going to take every opportunity to ask? Really? Perhaps a new initiate might know something and be more willing to talk. You don't know unless, again, you're metagaming.

[/quote]

I did take the opportunity. But then she broke the negotiations by reaching for her gun, turning it into a combat situation. Did you interview every Eclipse merc in the building?


[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

*FACEDESK*

If you're not a paragon, then why are you in a Paragon debate thread??
[/quote]

This is a Paragon only thread then? I didnt see the sign over the door.....why would you only want to debate with people who agree with you? That seems somewhat redundant.

I judge each situation on its own merits.

[quote]Precisely. No need to shoot her.[/quote]

Her wanting to escape does ot mean she isnt dangerous.

[quote]Kid_SixXx wrote...

Sorry but Telon being an untrained civillian having a panic attack and armed with an SMG gives me more reason to shoot him over Elnora because he is more likely to shoot me out of blind self preservation.  He has no combat discipline and doesn't know when he should shoot and when he should stand down.

[/quote]

Her high tech armour compared to his simple clothing, her being a member of a paramilitary organisation and her biotics all make her a greater threat then him.

[quote]Kid_SixXx wrote...

He also has Shepard dead to rights as Shepard doesn't get the chance to a weapon until after Telon faints or is KOed during the Renegade interrupt.  Your squaddies aren't packing when Telon draws his gun, either.

[/quote]

His gun wavers erratically from one target to the next. His lack of training and mental state betray him, making him easy to take down without posing as serious a risk

[quote]

It is a more dangerous situation than the one with Elnora because Elnora is easier to reason with due to the fact that she can clearly see that she has three guns pulled on her before she draws her own and knows she's on the losing end of the equation.

[/quote]

She cant be reasoned with. Either she gets her way completely or you kill her.

[quote]

If Telon isn't talked down quckly, he could open fire at any time.  Elnora draws her weapon out of pure bravado and it helps emphasize the "I'm just a poor lil' naive Asari in over my head" yarn she is about to spin for your listening pleasure.

[/quote]

I dont need to talk Telon down when i can knock him out. Elnora draws her gun because she wants to capitalise on any opportunity to kill you and escape. If she wanted to strengthen her act she would have tossed it aside.

[quote]

Elnora doesn't decide to fire until Renegade Shep makes it clear that he's probably going to execute her anyway just for being an Eclipse merc and she may as well go out with an empty thermal clip rather than just stand there and get blown to pieces.

[/quote]

Elnora decides to fire when she realised she had blown the act by drawing her weapon.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 23 septembre 2010 - 04:26 .

[Whatever42]

I did take the opportunity. But then she broke the negotiations by reaching for her gun, turning it into a combat situation. Did you interview every Eclipse merc in the building?

Except you could turn it back into a non-combat situation. And saving the galaxy isn't worth attempting that? And I would interviewed every merc if I had the opportunity, yes. I needed the name of the ship. My renegade is a bit more mission focused.

[Homebound]

She pulled a gun on me. Kill rather than die.

[Xilizhra]

I did take the opportunity. But then she broke the negotiations by reaching for her gun, turning it into a combat situation. Did you interview every Eclipse merc in the building?

None, sadly, tried to negotiate or surrender. I would have if I'd been able.

I dont need to talk Telon down when i can knock him out. Elnora draws her gun because she wants to capitalise on any opportunity to kill you and escape. If she wanted to strengthen her act she would have tossed it aside.

I don't see how it's out of character for a terrified kid to do whatever she thought necessary to escape.

Elnora decides to fire when she realised she had blown the act by drawing her weapon.

Enjoy your pessimistic interpretation, then.

[tonnactus]

Moiaussi wrote...



Kinetic barriers which aren't always sufficient in other cut scenes.

This was a cutscene.

Modifié par tonnactus, 23 septembre 2010 - 04:36 .

[Moiaussi]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

1) If you're going to say that the options are not clear (you don't know what the renegade interrupt will do versus continuing the dialogue) I agree its unclear. But its not metagaming once you know. Assuming information you clearly do not learn until much later is metagaming.

You presented a hypothetical conversation based on killing her (which had no actual basis in reality, since there are no accusations leveled at you, and Justicar's appearantly are just as agressive) and I presented one based on letting her go. Both conversations were after the fact. You cannot charge metagaming without accepting your conversation as being after the fact too.

2) Thane. Jack. Zaeed is all kinds of nasty. If he was willing to let those factory workers die, he's proably done similar before.

What part of 'you can save the factory workers, then choose to leave Zaheed behind' is hard for you to understand? If you take the paragon ending with Zaheed (which you imply cannot exist, since no paragon would give him a chance), you learn that he is acting as he does because he has been out in the cold so long he is not used to having sufficient backup to take the 'higher' path, and he agrees to set his ways aside and follow orders. even so, you still had the choice to leave him behind. If you do take him with you though, you have effectively taken him into custody, which is not the same thing as simply letting him go.

In Thane's case, hired assassin does not neccessarily mean the hits are all illegal. If you believe they are, then you must believe that no infiltrator can ever be paragon, at least not without forsaking their sniper rifle. You must believe that police snipers and military snipers are all renegade. That said, as a paragon, I do find recruiting Thane to be at least questionable.

In Jack's case, she is arguably not sane, but helps find her sanity with Shepard's help. Note that Samara was a merc and a pirate in the past too, but Asari society seems at peace with that.

3) The justicar and police officer have no authority to authorize you to execute people. They have asked you to find the name of the ship, not deal with the eclipse menace, and then the police officer looked the other way. Even with the recording, the police officer tells you that would be insufficient evidence. Elnora simply being in an eclipse uniform is not illegal at all. They cannot provide you any legal authority to kill her. And you are still not a cop.

You know this how, exactly? The recording is insufficient evidence on its own, but is with Samara vouching for you, which implies strongly that even if the police officer does not have authority, Samara does.

Elnora is not merely wearing an Eclipse uniform. She is wearing an Eclipse uniform in a hot zone, where other eclipse mercenaries are trying to kill you and she is caught off guard, cornered and outnumbered. Saying, essentially, "pardon, but this situation doesn't favour me. Can you please let me go so I can find one that does" does not equate to innocence.

4) You are not risking your life in this mission to solve a murder. You are here to save the galaxy by recruiting Samara. The fact that you don't ask her about the murder demonstrates its irelevance. Getting the name of the ship is crucial. Trillions could die if you don't recruit Samara - there is no other reason for risking your life on this mission.

Actually, you only have TIM's word that Samara is neccessary. Technically, you only have his advice to recruit her. That is irrelevant though. How can you claim 'paragon' and not care about the murder? Worrying solely about why you are risking your life and sticking precisely to the mission is much more renegade than paragon.

And regardless, if you failed to recruit Samara because Elnora shoots you in the back of the head later when your sheilds are down, it isn't very good for your mission. You are releasing an armed combatant on your side of the battle lines. Even if she didn't shoot you, your mission would have been rather compromised if she simply radioed ahead to her Captain, letting her know about the questions she was asked and giving her Captain the opportunity to erase or otherwise secure the data. With that, the rest of the mercs could simply have let you through, you would have found nothing, and per your reasoning would have let them all go.

5) Fair enough. If renegade shepard wants to forget his mission and kill her because she was stupid and pulled a gun than that is an acceptable renegade response. Stupid but in character for a very renegade, or very jumpy, shepard.

Only a renegade shepard would shoot her. So a renegade shepard would have no problems with her past. And you still recruit Jack, who is a renowned killer and murderer.

Lol, because worrying about a murderer rather than sticking to the mission is renegade, not paragon, and letting armed enemy combatants go behind your lines, after telling them what you are after is wise regardless of paragon or renegade? Jack's recruitment is a completely separate topic, as is Zaheed's, Thane's, and anyone else's. If you want to discuss those, discuss those. Bringing any of those on board instead of to justice could be considered paragon or renegade, depending on how it is viewed, but those are separate arguements.

Here they are just red herrings.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Regardless, they are still there and capable of intervening.

So are my squadmates with Elnora. You know, the two trained killers standing behind me.

Optimystic_X wrote...

There is no outcome in which he shoots.

He would not have drawn his gun in the first place if he wasn't angry enough to use it. He certainly wasn't afraid, like Elnora was.

AntiChri5 wrote...
The point was that Ashley has him covered better then your squaddies in the Elnora situation.

And my point is that Elnora doesn't need as much "coverage" as an angry krogan battlemaster.

AntiChri5 wrote...
And there is no way she could possibly have any prior knowledge?

If she had been killing people before, why would she "finally" need to do it to earn her uniform?

AntiChri5 wrote...
It isnt, you missed my point entirely. I was pointing out how similar they were to establish she is an enemy combatant.

So it's not effective at all, which means she is no more of a threat than any of them are, and certainly less of one than Wrex.

AntiChri5 wrote...
We have already established she is a threat.

No, we haven't.

AntiChri5 wrote...
For that statement to be true she would have to have sprung into life the day she joined Eclipse. You are completely discounting that she had a life before Eclipse.

See above; if she was a killer before, she wouldn't have "finally" needed to earn her uniform.

[Moiaussi]

tonnactus wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Kinetic barriers which aren't always sufficient in other cut scenes.

This was a cutscene.

And your point is? You know how it would play out in advance without metagaming?