528 réponses à ce sujet

[AntiChri5]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I did take the opportunity. But then she broke the negotiations by reaching for her gun, turning it into a combat situation. Did you interview every Eclipse merc in the building?

Except you could turn it back into a non-combat situation. And saving the galaxy isn't worth attempting that? And I would interviewed every merc if I had the opportunity, yes. I needed the name of the ship. My renegade is a bit more mission focused.

Only through metagaming could i know that i could, and if i am metagaming i know she doesnt have the information i need.

None, sadly, tried to negotiate or surrender. I would have if I'd been able.

Like wise. If they had put down their guns i would have spared them.

I don't see how it's out of character for a terrified kid to do whatever she thought necessary to escape.

She is going to do whatever is nessecary to escape, including killing me. I am not going to let her kill me.

Enjoy your pessimistic interpretation, then.

If someone you dont know pulls a gun on you you have to assume they intend to do you harm.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...
This is a Paragon only thread then? I didnt see the sign over the door.....why would you only want to debate with people who agree with you? That seems somewhat redundant.

I'm debating with the people who think its consistent for a Paragon to gun Elnora down. I don't give a pyjak what Renegades do.

[tonnactus]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Telon is not trained, not wearing armour, not an enemy combatant and obviously having a panic attack.

The engineer in bringing down the sky was armored and actually shoot at shepardt. The daughter on elisabeth baynham shoot at one of your squadmembers.
Shepardt didnt kill any of them.

Modifié par tonnactus, 23 septembre 2010 - 04:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Like wise. If they had put down their guns i would have spared them.

Elnora did. Thus, I spared her.

She is going to do whatever is nessecary to escape, including killing me. I am not going to let her kill me.

Nor did I.

If someone you dont know pulls a gun on you you have to assume they intend to do you harm.

At that point in time, yes. However, I suspected that she was rational enough to give up the notion that she could actually hurt me rather quickly. I was correct.

[Daewan]

Optimystic_X wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
This is a Paragon only thread then? I didnt see the sign over the door.....why would you only want to debate with people who agree with you? That seems somewhat redundant.

I'm debating with the people who think its consistent for a Paragon to gun Elnora down. I don't give a pyjak what Renegades do.

I'm sorry, I must have missed something.  So you're looking for a Paragon justification for shooting an unarmed opponent who surrenders?  Something consistent with "I won't let fear dictate who I am," and the Laws of War?  Without metagaming?

[PsyrenY]

Daewan wrote...
I'm sorry, I must have missed something.  So you're looking for a Paragon justification for shooting an unarmed opponent who surrenders?  Something consistent with "I won't let fear dictate who I am," and the Laws of War?  Without metagaming?

I'm trying to find out if the "My Paragon shot Elnora" camp has any such justification. I myself do not, which is why my Paragons let her go.

[Xilizhra]

I'm sorry, I must have missed something. So you're looking for a Paragon justification for shooting an unarmed opponent who surrenders? Something consistent with "I won't let fear dictate who I am," and the Laws of War? Without metagaming?

Oh, plenty of people try to give one.

[AntiChri5]

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...

Regardless, they are still there and capable of intervening.[/quote]

So are my squadmates with Elnora. You know, the two trained killers standing behind me.[/quote]

As i stated before, Wrex does not get off a shot while she does. My point still stands.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]AntiChri5 said.....

There is no outcome in which he shoots.[/quote]

He would not have drawn his gun in the first place if he wasn't angry enough to use it. He certainly wasn't afraid, like Elnora was.[/quote]

Again, my point still stands.[/quote]

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...
The point was that Ashley has him covered better then your squaddies in the Elnora situation.[/quote]

And my point is that Elnora doesn't need as much "coverage" as an angry krogan battlemaster.[/quote]

Aaaaaand.....my point still stands.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...
And there is no way she could possibly have any prior knowledge?[/quote]

If she had been killing people before, why would she "finally" need to do it to earn her uniform?[/quote]

She does not need to have killed to know how to use a weapon, and Eclipse do not know about every murder that ever takes place.

My. Point. Still. Stands.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...
It isnt, you missed my point entirely. I was pointing out how similar they were to establish she is an enemy combatant.[/quote]

So it's not effective at all, which means she is no more of a threat than any of them are, and certainly less of one than Wrex.[/quote]

And all of them are threats.

Point. Standing all on its own.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...
We have already established she is a threat.[/quote]

No, we haven't.[/quote]

She has a gun, access to explosive rounds, combat training and biotics. We dont know how extensive any of these are. Is she capable of lifting a pencil or performing a singularity? We dont know, and must treat her as a threat.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...
For that statement to be true she would have to have sprung into life the day she joined Eclipse. You are completely discounting that she had a life before Eclipse.[/quote]

See above; if she was a killer before, she wouldn't have "finally" needed to earn her uniform.
[/quote]

Unless she had some way to learn how to shoot, punch and use biotics without killing or Eclipse does not know about every murder commited.

And look at that.....she does and they dont.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...
This is a Paragon only thread then? I didnt see the sign over the door.....why would you only want to debate with people who agree with you? That seems somewhat redundant.[/quote]

I'm debating with the people who think its consistent for a Paragon to gun Elnora down. I don't give a pyjak what Renegades do.

[/quote]

Im not a renegade.

[quote]tonnactus wrote...

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...

Telon is not trained, not wearing armour, not an enemy combatant and obviously having a panic attack.

[/quote]

The engineer in bringing down the sky was armored and actually shoot at shepardt. The daughter on elisabeth baynham shoot at one of your squadmembers.
Shepardt didnt kill any of them.
[/quote]

And all of them immediately lowered their weapons by the time i could intervene. This has come up before, if you arennt going to bother reading the thread dont bother debating in it.

[quote]Elnora did. Thus, I spared her.[/quote]

Looks more like she raised her gun to me.

[quote]Oh, plenty of people try to give one.[/quote]

Not me. Couldnt give a toss whether it was considered para or ren.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:04 .

[tonnactus]

AntiChri5 wrote...

And all of them immediately lowered their weapons by the time i could intervene.

Like elnora did without the renegade interrupt.Shepardt and his team had shields .Without that, i would immediatly kill anyone who pull
 a weapon on me,no doubt.

[AntiChri5]

tonnactus wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

And all of them immediately lowered their weapons by the time i could intervene.

Like elnora did without the renegade interrupt.Shepardt and his team had shields .Without that, i would immediatly kill anyone who pull
 a weapon on me,no doubt.

But she raised her gun when i could intervene, and i did.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:05 .

[Xilizhra]

Looks more like she raised her gun to me.

Aaaand... she lowered it again.

[AntiChri5]

Xilizhra wrote...

Looks more like she raised her gun to me.

Aaaand... she lowered it again.

A silly thing to do, wasnt it?

Raise her gun and wave it around when facing a Spectre who has reason to believe she is an enemy only to lower it a second later.

What an odd girl, that Elnora.

Oh well.

[tonnactus]

AntiChri5 wrote...



But she raised her gun when i could intervene, and i did.

And the others even shoot.After that,if the game allowed,i would for sure killed them immediatly.
This asari  dont even shoot at you.

Modifié par tonnactus, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:10 .

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Looks more like she raised her gun to me.

Aaaand... she lowered it again.

Besides the fact that it is metagaming to know that, she never does disarm herself or surrender her weapon.

[AntiChri5]

tonnactus wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...



But she raised her gun when i could intervene, and i did.

And the others even shoot.After that,if the game allowed,i would for sure killed them immediatly.
This asari  dont even shoot at you.

I wouldnt have killed them afterwards as it was an understandable mistake on their parts and they lowered their weapons, making themselves no longer a threat.

But if i could have shot them during? I dont know. There are other factors and i need time to consider what i would do in that situation.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

As i stated before, Wrex does not get off a shot while she does. My point still stands.

It's quite telling that an Elnora who is able to fire is less threatening than a Wrex who is not.

AntiChri5 wrote...
She does not need to have killed to know how to use a weapon, and Eclipse do not know about every murder that ever takes place.

She can't be very good at using one if she never killed anyone before.
And why would she have withheld that information from them when telling them would grant her admission? That's a senseless argument.

AntiChri5 wrote...My. Point. Still. Stands.

No, not really.

AntiChri5 wrote...
And all of them are threats.

So you DID gun down Wrex then?

AntiChri5 wrote...
She has a gun, access to explosive rounds, combat training and biotics. We dont know how extensive any of these are. Is she capable of lifting a pencil or performing a singularity? We dont know, and must treat her as a threat.

None of which she is willing to use, or else she wouldn't be hiding under a desk and praying that your squad overlooks her. But you can go on believing she is Tela Vasir in disguise if you want, I won't stop you.

AntiChri5 wrote...
Unless she had some way to learn how to shoot, punch and use biotics without killing or Eclipse does not know about every murder commited.

Knowing how to shoot doesn't make you a killer. And not being a killer means you're not a threat to Shepard.

AntiChri5 wrote...
Im not a renegade.

No, you just act like one.

[Xilizhra]

Besides the fact that it is metagaming to know that, she never does disarm herself or surrender her weapon.

Oddly, there's no option to ask her to.

[Whatever42]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I did take the opportunity. But then she broke the negotiations by reaching for her gun, turning it into a combat situation. Did you interview every Eclipse merc in the building?

Except you could turn it back into a non-combat situation. And saving the galaxy isn't worth attempting that? And I would interviewed every merc if I had the opportunity, yes. I needed the name of the ship. My renegade is a bit more mission focused.

Only through metagaming could i know that i could, and if i am metagaming i know she doesnt have the information i need.

So if instead of an interrupt, there was a menu choice when she raised her gun, such as:

1) Make dark one-liner and shoot her
2) Stare her down and question her futher

The you would select 2?

[AntiChri5]

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...

As i stated before, Wrex does not get off a shot while she does. My point still stands.[/quote]

It's quite telling that an Elnora who is able to fire is less threatening than a Wrex who is not.

[/quote]

Someone who does not shoot is less of a threat then someone who does? Yep.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...
She does not need to have killed to know how to use a weapon, and Eclipse do not know about every murder that ever takes place. [/quote]

She can't be very good at using one if she never killed anyone before.
And why would she have withheld that information from them when telling them would grant her admission? That's a senseless argument.[/quote]

You do not need to have killed to be skilled with a weapon. Shooting ranges exist. You ever played Pinnacle Station? Why would they admit her because she claimed she went through the initiation rite already when they werent looking? If you can not prove you have done something you cant expect to get a job where it is one of the main requirements.

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...My. Point. Still. Stands.[/quote]
[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
No, not really.[/quote]

Yes really.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...
And all of them are threats.[/quote]

So you DID gun down Wrex then?

[/quote]

I already explained why i didnt. If you cant be bothered reading my posts why bother debating with me?

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...
She has a gun, access to explosive rounds, combat training and biotics. We dont know how extensive any of these are. Is she capable of lifting a pencil or performing a singularity? We dont know, and must treat her as a threat.[/quote]

None of which she is willing to use, or else she wouldn't be hiding under a desk and praying that your squad overlooks her. But you can go on believing she is Tela Vasir in disguise if you want, I won't stop you.[/quote]

What someone will do when cornered and what they will do when they have a chance to escape are very very different.

[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...
Unless she had some way to learn how to shoot, punch and use biotics without killing or Eclipse does not know about every murder commited.
[/quote]

Knowing how to shoot doesn't make you a killer. And not being a killer means you're not a threat to Shepard.[/quote]

Knowing how to shoot and having a gun pointed at someone makes you a threat to them. By your logic, she wasnt a threat to the volus she killed. because she had not yet killed him.

[quote]Optimystic_X wrote...
[quote]AntiChri5 wrote...
Im not a renegade.[/quote]

No, you just act like one.
[/quote]

Not really. The blue bar is fuller then the red one.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:23 .

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Not really. The blue bar is fuller then the red one.

My mistake, you act like one when NPCs would fool you otherwise.

[AntiChri5]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I did take the opportunity. But then she broke the negotiations by reaching for her gun, turning it into a combat situation. Did you interview every Eclipse merc in the building?

Except you could turn it back into a non-combat situation. And saving the galaxy isn't worth attempting that? And I would interviewed every merc if I had the opportunity, yes. I needed the name of the ship. My renegade is a bit more mission focused.

Only through metagaming could i know that i could, and if i am metagaming i know she doesnt have the information i need.

So if instead of an interrupt, there was a menu choice when she raised her gun, such as:

1) Make dark one-liner and shoot her
2) Stare her down and question her futher

The you would select 2?

If the choice had been "kill her" or "disarm her" i would have went with "disarm her"

[AntiChri5]

Optimystic_X wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Not really. The blue bar is fuller then the red one.

My mistake, you act like one when NPCs would fool you otherwise.

When someone in an enemy uniform points their gun at me i shoot them, which is exactly what you do in every situation but this one.

[Whatever42]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

So if instead of an interrupt, there was a menu choice when she raised her gun, such as:

1) Make dark one-liner and shoot her
2) Stare her down and question her futher

The you would select 2?

If the choice had been "kill her" or "disarm her" i would have went with "disarm her"

Fair enough. But if the choice was as I have stated it, with your mission goals in mind, which choice would you have made?

[Renessa]

I think it is pretty clear, that a Paragon Shepard would let her go. What does s/he see at that moment? A very frigthened young woman (who propably killed somebody sometime, but we have no idea under what circumstances). She surrenders. If Shephard lets her go, she just walks away.



I strongly believe, that if the players would not stumble later over that recorded diary, no Paragon would ever have had an issue with letting her go. It just makes Paragon Shep feel a bit like a tool. At least mine did. I felt great satisfaction killing her with my nasty Shep. But - in my next Paragon Shep run, I wll let her go again. Everything else is meta gaming in my mind.

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Besides the fact that it is metagaming to know that, she never does disarm herself or surrender her weapon.

Oddly, there's no option to ask her to.

I considered it a test of good faith on her part. If she really was a non-combatant and was surrendering, she should have dropped her weapon rather than just lowering it. Without doing so, she really was just asking for a do-over rather than being repentant or abandoning Eclipse.