528 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

I considered it a test of good faith on her part. If she really was a non-combatant and was surrendering, she should have dropped her weapon rather than just lowering it. Without doing so, she really was just asking for a do-over rather than being repentant or abandoning Eclipse.

How reasonable is it to ask someone to think clearly under that much stress?

[AntiChri5]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

So if instead of an interrupt, there was a menu choice when she raised her gun, such as:

1) Make dark one-liner and shoot her
2) Stare her down and question her futher

The you would select 2?

If the choice had been "kill her" or "disarm her" i would have went with "disarm her"

Fair enough. But if the choice was as I have stated it, with your mission goals in mind, which choice would you have made?

As there is no guarantee that staring her down would work i (if it is a persuade option i would probably take it, but if its just white text then nope) "make a dark one liner and shoot her" but try to aim for a non vital area (you did not specify "kill her") and as Vasirs hostage and Kolyat prove  it is possible to shoot someone without killing them. Then i ask (politely, we dont want to scare the poor thing) for the information i am after, give her medigel and contact the police woman to take her into custody for a trial.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:35 .

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

When someone in an enemy uniform points their gun at me i shoot them, which is exactly what you do in every situation but this one.

None of them were hiding under desks or begging for their life first.

[AntiChri5]

Optimystic_X wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

When someone in an enemy uniform points their gun at me i shoot them, which is exactly what you do in every situation but this one.

None of them were hiding under desks or begging for their life first.

She could have been tapdancing for all i care. Bad guys get scared too, her being afraid is irrelevant. You think people in prison are happy about it? You think they all turned themselves in?

No, they hid because they were scared.

It doesnt change what they did, or what Elnora does.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...
Bad guys get scared too, her being afraid is irrelevant.

So her actions are irrelevant to her mental state (and vice-versa)? I really hope you're not a lawyer.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:46 .

[AntiChri5]

Optimystic_X wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...
Bad guys get scared too, her being afraid is irrelevant.

So her actions are irrelevant to her mental state (and vice-versa)? I really hope you're not a lawyer.

Of course not, but if someone points a gun at a cop and the cop shoots them, whether or not they were scared doesnt enter into it. The cop will not be held responsible.

Have you heard of suicide by cop?

Modifié par AntiChri5, 23 septembre 2010 - 05:52 .

[Xilizhra]

I'm a damned Spectre; I won't be held responsible if I, well, blow up a refinery. I still don't really want to kill her.

[AntiChri5]

And thats your choice.

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...

How reasonable is it to ask someone to think clearly under that much stress?

That is true of every conflict ever. In theory, none of the mercs should shoot. Shepard's primary mission is simply to obtain information which is likely not especially valuable or classified. There are times when you simply have to think clearly, or you will get killed, and beyond that, she had time to think.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Of course not, but if someone points a gun at a cop and the cop shoots them, whether or not they were scared doesnt enter into it. The cop will not be held responsible.

Have you heard of suicide by cop?

Why did your Shepard have the presence of mind not to gun down Wrex, but somehow lose it when faced with the much less dangerous Elnora?

Unless you DID gun down Wrex, in which case disregard.

[AntiChri5]

Optimystic_X wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Of course not, but if someone points a gun at a cop and the cop shoots them, whether or not they were scared doesnt enter into it. The cop will not be held responsible.

Have you heard of suicide by cop?

Why did your Shepard have the presence of mind not to gun down Wrex, but somehow lose it when faced with the much less dangerous Elnora?

Unless you DID gun down Wrex, in which case disregard.

This is the fith ****ing time Wrex has been brought up. I didnt ****ing shoot him. Memorise that.

Read it again.

Memorise it.


Wrex was a known quantity. I knew what his complaint was, considered it legitamite and shared a bond of trust and respect with him.

You do not simply shoot friends.

I was being covered by Ashley, and relying on my ability to get through to my friend peacefully.

[Chuvvy]

I don't kill her. She's just a kid. Just like I don't let that kid go try to kill Garrus.

[Aggie Punbot]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm sorry, I must have missed something. So you're looking for a Paragon justification for shooting an unarmed opponent who surrenders? Something consistent with "I won't let fear dictate who I am," and the Laws of War? Without metagaming?

Oh, plenty of people try to give one.

And you've received several, many, many times now. You, however, have already decided that there is no justification and refuse to acknowledge the fact that other paragons may not feel the same way you do.

Simple fact: anyone drawing a weapon on Shepard is fair game to be shot. Anyone. Wrex, the salarian, Elnora. Shooting any of those people is completely justified in that they have chosen to threaten you first. The difference is in how each individual gamer perceives the imminent threat. You've decided that Elnora ia a "terrified child"? Good for you. Spare her then. It's a valid position. Other people perceive her as an imminent threat? That is also a valid position and they have a valid paragon reason for pulling the trigger: ending the life of a mercenary who you know has already killed at least one person in the past and is threatening to kill you after you've already lowered your weapon.

It's not that there's no paragon justification available, it's that both you and Optymistic_X flatly refuse to consider any viewpoint other than your own. 

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 23 septembre 2010 - 08:30 .

[Xilizhra]

It's logically impossible to give a Paragon justification for this, since it gives Renegade points in such a way that it cuts off Paragon ones. If you're purely Paragon otherwise, it's making a Renegade decision in pursuit of the greater good.



Their reasoning is valid to them, I'm certain, though the actual action is undertaken in such a way that it undermines all claims of shooting her for pragmatism's sake. It's just not Paragon-y.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

You do not simply shoot friends.

Murder is okay as long as you don't know the person beforehand. Got it.

[Slayer299]

Well, I'd think the pulling her gun and *shooting* me was pretty good reason to kill her

[Xilizhra]

She doesn't shoot you unless you take the Renegade interrupt.

[Aggie Punbot]

But you don't know that she won't shoot you beforehand unless you're metagaming; and if you are allowed to metagame that, you're also allowed to metagame the fact that she murdered the volus in cold blood, gleefully and happily with full knowledge of what she was doing.

Also remember that the renegade interrupt is directly caused by her reaching for her gun, not the other way around. If she didn't reach for her weapon, there would be no option to shoot her. She reached for it after Shepard and company had already lowered their weapons (i.e. she was no longer in immediate peril). Bear in mind that Shepard also waits until it's obvious that it is, in fact, a gun she was reaching for and not, say, a notepad or some other innoculous item.

Again, there is a perfectly valid paragon reason for shooting her but you two just refuse to accept it. Why exactly does what other people choose to do in their games matter to you both so much anyways?

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:03 .

[Xilizhra]

Again, there is a perfectly valid paragon reason for shooting her but you two just refuse to accept it. Why exactly does what other people choose to do in their games matter to you both so much anyways?

If it was a perfectly valid Paragon option, you'd get freakin' Paragon points. Paragon and Renegade are gameplay distinctions.

Also, her enjoying shooting the volus is perfectly consistent with her stated desire to shoot up bad guys.

[MrnDvlDg161]

lol --- and around...and around...around...

[Arijharn]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

lol --- and around...and around...around...

Weeeeeee!

[Arijharn]

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, her enjoying shooting the volus is perfectly consistent with her stated desire to shoot up bad guys.

That's right, it's totally justifiable by shooting up bad girls.

[tonnactus]

Wrex was far more dangerous.
He was a merc for thousands of years(and work alone most of the time) and no could no if he would choose to attack shepard in pure rage for the possibility to rescue his race.
All he had to do would be to activate barrier.He kould kill people with bare hands then.
Elnora was just an sister innitiate,not a very trained combat biotic anyway.
Like the one that wanted to be an eclipse and was just 60 years old.(at the weapon shop)

Modifié par tonnactus, 24 septembre 2010 - 08:20 .

[Kid_SixXx]

Renessa wrote...
I strongly believe, that if the players would not stumble later over that recorded diary, no Paragon would ever have had an issue with letting her go. It just makes Paragon Shep feel a bit like a tool. At least mine did. I felt great satisfaction killing her with my nasty Shep. But - in my next Paragon Shep run, I wll let her go again. Everything else is meta gaming in my mind.

Precisely.  I concur with everything said here.  Most of the justification for shooting Elnora IMO comes from sour graping over ex post facto information.

Elnora has no more reason to shoo than Telon does yet people tend to let Telon collapse and gun down Elnora when she draws.  Why?  Because they're playing a reloaded game and found out that Elnora plays you for chumps and you let a murderer get away.

It is the ending of Bring Down The Sky but completely devoid of the feel good part where you saved the hostages.  Knowing Elnora killed Dakni Kur and passing that infomation along to Dectective Ayana is cold comfort.... even though you are doing the right thing and passing along the information to the proper authorities.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 24 septembre 2010 - 01:01 .

[Kid_SixXx]

AntiChri5 wrote...
Her high tech armour compared to his simple clothing, her being a member of a paramilitary organisation and her biotics all make her a greater threat then him.

None of which she can use before she gets blown away by the three guns pointing at her.   Three guns wielded by three seasoned combatants.

AntiChri5 wrote...
His gun wavers erratically from one target to the next. His lack of training and mental state betray him, making him easy to take down without posing as serious a risk

His mental state makes him harder to read, not easier.

His erratic aim means that he could end up shooting you or one of the squadmates behind you.... at close range..  He is a danger to himself and probably to the Salarians nearby.

Also he is armed and has already drawn his weapon while you and your squad are standing there unarmed and flatfooted... at close range...

AntiChri5 wrote...

She cant be reasoned with. Either she gets her way completely or you kill her.

Not reasoned with?  What are you talking about?  She pretty much tells you everything you want to know about Samara's quarry once she realizes she's not going to get shot.

She trades worthwhile information in exchange for her life and essentially betrays her organization.

Probably because she either hopes that Captain Wasea or the gunship crew will take care of Shepard or that Shepard will blast everyone and there will be no Eclipse survivors from the base left alive to discover her treachery. 

AntiChri5 wrote...

I dont need to talk Telon down when i can knock him out. Elnora draws her gun because she wants to capitalise on any opportunity to kill you and escape. If she wanted to strengthen her act she would have tossed it aside.

There is only one way in and out of that room and three armed people who just mowed down her squad are covering the only exit.  Shepard also starts off the cutscene knowing exactly where Elnora is hiding. 

What possible opportunity is there for her to capitalize on?  She is trapped.

She makes a weak showing of self defense and the holsters her weapon once Shepard takes a less aggressive stance.

AntiChri5 wrote...

Elnora decides to fire when she realised she had blown the act by drawing her weapon.

No, she fires because Shepard levels his gun at her and says, "You chose your side."  She realizes that ruse or no, Renegade Shep is going to kill her anyway merely because she's Eclipse.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 24 septembre 2010 - 01:02 .