528 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

TS2Aggie wrote...

But you don't know that she won't shoot you beforehand unless you're metagaming; and if you are allowed to metagame that, you're also allowed to metagame the fact that she murdered the volus in cold blood, gleefully and happily with full knowledge of what she was doing.

I never said I knew she would shoot. I said it really didn't matter if she did.
She's using a weak gun (Shepard's trained eye can easily discern this) and for all her bravado, is little more than a scared kid.
Hell, Shepard can face down Enyala's CLAYMORE at point-blank range (Miranda's loyalty) and if Paragon, even turn away from it without fear. What possible threat could miss Elnora be to me?

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

I considered it a test of good faith on her part. If she really was a non-combatant and was surrendering, she should have dropped her weapon rather than just lowering it. Without doing so, she really was just asking for a do-over rather than being repentant or abandoning Eclipse.

How reasonable is it to ask someone to think clearly under that much stress?

For certain things, very.

Raising your weapon? Extreme signal of hostile intent, and an escalation of threat right there.

[AntiChri5]

Murder is okay as long as you don't know the person beforehand. Got it.

Dont take things out of context and invent bull**** i never said.

Wrex was far more dangerous.

He was a merc for thousands of years(and work alone most of the time) and no could no if he would choose to attack shepard in pure rage for the possibility to rescue his race.

All he had to do would be to activate barrier.He kould kill people with bare hands then.

Elnora was just an sister innitiate,not a very trained combat biotic anyway.

Like the one that wanted to be an eclipse and was just 60 years old.(at the weapon shop)

We have been through this. Facts learned through Metagaming prove my assumptions are right. There is no possible outcome in which Wrex does any damage. The same cannot be said for Elnora. She damages your shields.



Whether this is because Wrex was distracted by a sudden bowel movement or he never intended to shoot or Shepard had him outgunned doesnt matter.

None of which she can use before she gets blown away by the three guns pointing at her.  

Metagaming. She must still be considered a threat by Shepard.

His mental state makes him harder to read, not easier.



His erratic aim means that he could end up shooting you or one of the squadmates behind you.... at close range..  He is a danger to himself and probably to the Salarians nearby.



Also he is armed and has already drawn his weapon while you and your squad are standing there unarmed and flatfooted... at close range...

Watch the cutscene again. His gun (and complete attention) jump from one target to the next so erratically Shep is able to knock him out. His mental state hinders him so much Shepard is able to neutralise him.

Not reasoned with?  What are you talking about?  She pretty much tells you everything you want to know about Samara's quarry once she realizes she's not going to get shot.



She trades worthwhile information in exchange for her life and essentially betrays her organization.



Probably because she either hopes that Captain Wasea or the gunship crew will take care of Shepard or that Shepard will blast everyone and there will be no Eclipse survivors from the base left alive to discover her treachery.

Because you let her get her way.



She wasnt reasoned with, reasoning with someone is when you convince them to see your side and accomodate you. If you let someone get their way you have not reasoned with them. Wrex was reasoned with. The moment she goes for her gun she is trying to either: a) Kill you or Strengthen her position by intimidating you. Both indicate she is not open to being reasoned with. If you had persuaded her to report to the police until the investigation into Eclipse was over then you would have reasoned with her.

There is only one way in and out of that room and three armed people who just mowed down her squad are covering the only exit.  Shepard also starts off the cutscene knowing exactly where Elnora is hiding. 



What possible opportunity is there for her to capitalize on?  She is trapped.



She makes a weak showing of self defense and the holsters her weapon once Shepard takes a less aggressive stance.

You do not know her combat capabilities. Only that she is a member of a paramilitary organisation you are at war with and is pointing a gun at you. You know that even young asari are capable of very strong biotics,  (Liara can perform a Singularity) and do not have an adequate reference for her age. If she were to slam a Singularity on your ass you and your squaddies would be incapacitated long enough for her to either escape or kill one of you. You have to treat her reaching for her gun or using biotics as a deadly threat.

No, she fires because Shepard levels his gun at her and says, "You chose your side."  She realizes that ruse or no, Renegade Shep is going to kill her anyway merely because she's Eclipse.

The moment she reached for her gun and pointed it at you it ceased to be a negotiation and become a combat situation. She broke the negotiations by making an aggressive move.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Facts learned through Metagaming prove my assumptions are right. There is no possible outcome in which Wrex does any damage.

Irony: knowing Wrex will not fire is metagaming.

AntiChri5 wrote...
The same cannot be said for Elnora. She damages your shields.

"Damaging your shields" is not grounds for self-defense. That's the whole point of shields - to prevent a life-threatening situation. Which they do.

[Dean_the_Young]

Optimystic_X wrote...

"Damaging your shields" is not grounds for self-defense. That's the whole point of shields - to prevent a life-threatening situation. Which they do.

Attacking defenses is not grounds for self-defense?

Optimystic, no military or police agency in the world considers a bullet stopped by body armor to have been anything but lethal intent.

[PsyrenY]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Optimystic, no military or police agency in the world considers a bullet stopped by body armor to have been anything but lethal intent.

There is a significant difference in protective effectiveness between a kevlar vest and a mass effect kinetic barrier.

I point again to Capt. Enyala - Paragon Shepard is comfortable staring down a krogan shotgun wielded at point-blank range by a FAR more dangerous woman than Elnora. Please explain how Elnora could be more of a threat.

[Godeskian]

Any level of threat allows for a lethal response when the fate of the entire galaxy is at stake. ANY. That's what being a renegade is all about.

[PsyrenY]

Godeskian wrote...

Any level of threat allows for a lethal response when the fate of the entire galaxy is at stake. ANY. That's what being a renegade is all about.

Good thing I'm not talking about Renegades then.

[AntiChri5]

Irony: knowing Wrex will not fire is metagaming.

I already outlined my reasons to negotiate with Wrex several times. I was trusting in my knowledge of his character, friendship with him, and his respect for me as well as my entire squad including a ready sniper and fifteen odd STG specialists surrounding us, added to the fact i saw his issue with my leadership a valid and legitimate issue. An almost violent disagreement between friends is not the same as an encounter with an unkown individual in an enemy uniform in a combat zone. I said that metagaming proved my assumptions.

"Damaging your shields" is not grounds for self-defense. That's the whole point of shields - to prevent a life-threatening situation. Which they do.

By your logic, her shooting but missing is also not a threat.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I already outlined my reasons to negotiate with Wrex several times. I was trusting in my knowledge of his character, friendship with him, and his respect for me as well as my entire squad including a ready sniper and fifteen odd STG specialists surrounding us, added to the fact i saw his issue with my leadership a valid and legitimate issue. An almost violent disagreement between friends is not the same as an encounter with an unkown individual in an enemy uniform in a combat zone. I said that metagaming proved my assumptions.

If he was so friendly to you then, why did he draw his gun in the first place? Clearly his emotions were interfering with his loyalty, and Shepard cannot know for certain which side he would have come down on.

AntiChri5 wrote...

By your logic, her shooting but missing is also not a threat.

Exactly, it wasn't.
Shepard guns her down in that instance because s/he wants to, not out of fear of injury or death.

[Xilizhra]

You know, I'm beginning to think that fanfiction has more intelligent answers for everything than the actual game.



http://www.fanfictio..._Saves_the_Hero

[AntiChri5]

If he was so friendly to you then, why did he draw his gun in the first place? Clearly his emotions were interfering with his loyalty, and Shepard cannot know for certain which side he would have come down on.

Because the fate of his entire race is hanging in the balance and krogan arent known for diplomacy. Obviously i had no way to know for certain which side he would come down on. But i had something you never do with Elnora. A reason to trust him.



As a matter of fact, you have ample reason to distrust her.

Exactly, it wasn't.

LMFAO! Someone shooting at you isn't a threat if they miss?



Seriously?

[Godeskian]

Optimystic, I can't quote when posting from my phone, but yes my point was that shooting her for the threat level she represents is to me a renegade option. My pure paragon let's her go. My paragon pragmatist shoots her because she is the enemy, a weak insignificant enemy, but an enemy nonetheless. How she became one is irrelevant.

[Xilizhra]

Have you missed how the execution is carried out in a stunningly unpragmatic way?

[PsyrenY]

Godeskian wrote...

My paragon pragmatist shoots her because she is the enemy, a weak insignificant enemy, but an enemy nonetheless. How she became one is irrelevant.

"Paragon pragmatist" is an oxymoron. Paragons are idealists.

You can be a Paragon, or you can be a pragmatist. Being both results in extremely inconsistent behavior.

AntiChri5 wrote...

Because the fate of his entire race is
hanging in the balance and krogan arent known for diplomacy. Obviously i
had no way to know for certain which side he would come down on. But i
had something you never do with Elnora. A reason to trust him.

As a matter of fact, you have ample reason to distrust her.

My trust in her is irrelevant. She has neither the will nor the ability to defeat me.

AntiChri5 wrote...
LMFAO! Someone shooting at you isn't a threat if they miss?

Seriously?

No, Elnora shooting at me isn't a threat if I have kinetic barriers. Which I do.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 24 septembre 2010 - 02:16 .

[AntiChri5]

I can't quote when posting from my phone,

I can! HA!



It's a bit of a pain in the arse though.

[AntiChri5]

You can be a Paragon, or you can be a pragmatist. Being both results in extremely inconsistent behavior.

Do NOT tell others how to roleplay.



Other people like to play nuanced characters, with actual personalities, rather then cardboard cutouts which are a slave to a certain colour.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Do NOT tell others how to roleplay.

I'm not. I never said "You shouldn't be inconsistent even if it fits your character." For all I know, your Shepard could be bipolar or just hate asari, and that's okay. I'm merely stating fact - Paragon actions and pragmatic actions will frequently clash.

AntiChri5 wrote...
Other people like to play nuanced characters, with actual personalities, rather then cardboard cutouts which are a slave to a certain colour.

My problem is that these people have yet to show why their Shepard would gun down Elnora here but play the Paragon elsewhere without some kind of mental instability.

[AntiChri5]

My trust in her is irrelevant. She has neither the will nor the ability to defeat me.

Shepard has no way to know that. What if she has phasic rounds? Or can perform singularity?

No, Elnora shooting at me isn't a threat if I have kinetic barriers. Which I do.

For that statement to be true, your kinetic barriers would need to completely deflect bullets. They do not. Enemies can kill you with guns (how long it takes depends on difficulty), she has a gun, there is special ammo desinged to bypass an enemies kinetic barriers.



She. Is. A. Threat.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Shepard has no way to know that. What if she has phasic rounds? Or can perform singularity?

1) If she had such awesome fighting skills, why would she wait until her comrades are gunned down to use them?
2) To throw a singularity (or any other biotic ability), you need a free hand off your weapon - see Thane's Shadow Broker entry on neutralizing Asari.
3) Phasic rounds penetrate shields but do reduced damage to ablative armor - you know, the kind Shepard wears on every mission.

AntiChri5 wrote...
For that statement to be true, your kinetic barriers would need to completely deflect bullets. They do not. Enemies can kill you with guns (how long it takes depends on difficulty), she has a gun, there is special ammo desinged to bypass an enemies kinetic barriers.

She. Is. A. Threat.

Again, I'm wearing this delightful outfit called a hardsuit beneath my kinetic barriers. She is no threat.
I notice you're ignoring Captain Enyala. If Shepard can stare down a Claymore wielded by an Eclipse Captain, what possible threat could a Tempest wielded by an Eclipse neophyte be?

[AntiChri5]

I'm merely stating fact - Paragon actions and pragmatic actions will frequently clash.

And where they do, the person roleplaying will make a decision based on their characters personality according to information unkown to you.

My problem is that these people have yet to show why their Shepard would gun down Elnora here but play the Paragon elsewhere without some kind of mental instability.

Because she is a threat.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Because she is a threat.

See above.

[AntiChri5]

1) If she had such awesome fighting skills, why would she wait until her comrades are gunned down to use them?

Cowardice.

2) To throw a singularity (or any other biotic ability), you need a free hand off your weapon - see Thane's Shadow Broker entry on neutralizing Asari.

Practice letting go of your mouse. See how long it takes. My adept can go from holding a tempest smg to making a singularity in less then a second.

3) Phasic rounds penetrate shields but do reduced damage to ablative armor - you know, the kind Shepard wears on every mission.

Armour doesnt offer complete protection, besides, Shep forgot his helmet that day.

I notice you're ignoring Captain Enyala. If Shepard can stare down a Claymore wielded by an Eclipse Captain, what possible threat could a Tempest wielded by an Eclipse neophyte be?

Enyala did not make an aggressive move against me during negotiations. It was Miranda who ended the negotiations by easily throwing her accross the room.

[Xilizhra]

Enyala did not make an aggressive move against me during negotiations. It was Miranda who ended the negotiations by easily throwing her accross the room.

She didn't need to make an aggressive move, she had her gun trained on you from the very beginning.

[AntiChri5]

what possible threat could a Tempest wielded by an Eclipse neophyte be?

Next time you meet one in combat, dont shoot her and you will see.

See above.

See above.