528 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Next time you meet one in combat, dont shoot her and you will see.

Unfortunately, none of the others hide under desks.

[AntiChri5]

She didn't need to make an aggressive move, she had her gun trained on you from the very beginning.

And if i could have shot her before she did i would have.



As it was, she was not trying to become a greater threat.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...
Cowardice.

So you admit she is not a hardened killer then?

AntiChri5 wrote...
Practice letting go of your mouse. See how long it takes. My adept can go from holding a tempest smg to making a singularity in less then a second.

Merely letting go is not enough, it requires a full "throwing motion" to make all the necessary nerve clusters fire. See the codex.

AntiChri5 wrote...
Armour doesnt offer complete protection, besides, Shep forgot his helmet that day.

Even if you don't have a helmet it's irrelevant. She holds the SMG at her hip and aims at your torso.

AntiChri5 wrote...
Enyala did not make an aggressive move against me during negotiations. It was Miranda who ended the negotiations by easily throwing her accross the room.

I thought aiming her gun at you was all the aggression you people needed?

[Ygolnac]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I think she's a jerk, but I still think outright blowing her away as a Paragon is metagaming.

This one

Whenyou meet her the first time you do not know she is a liar and an heartless killer that murders people just becouse it's cool to tell friends you are a mercenary.
In that scenario if you play paragon you should let her go, even if you already played the game and you personally know she's quite a bad person, your shepard does not know that and discovers it few minutes later.

Another metagaming is letting miranda kill her friend becouse you know that he is to be killed anyway from the eclipse chief.

[AntiChri5]

Unfortunately, none of the others hide under desks.

So it is possible, if you do not act fast enough, for one to kill you?

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

So it is possible, if you do not act fast enough, for one to kill you?

If by "fast enough" you mean "standing there while one's SMG penetrates my barriers, then my hardsuit, then my hardened skin weave and cybernetic implants," then yes.

[AntiChri5]

So you admit she is not a hardened killer then?

Killers are quite often cowards.

Merely letting go is not enough, it requires a full "throwing motion" to make all the necessary nerve clusters fire. See the codex.

I have. The action you must take depends on what training you received. It only took Liara a moment to cast a Singularity.

Even if you don't have a helmet it's irrelevant. She holds the SMG at her hip and aims at your torso.

It is perfectly relevent, it tales the slightest instant to angle a gun up a few degrees.

I thought aiming her gun at you was all the aggression you people needed?

The degree to which she is a threat is not changing. I have nothing to lose by negotiating.



When Elnora pulls her gun the degree to which she is a threat increases, and now negotiating disadvantages me.



Besides which, we all killed her.

[Xilizhra]

Whenyou meet her the first time you do not know she is a liar and an heartless killer that murders people just becouse it's cool to tell friends you are a mercenary.

I don't think she's even that, but no matter.

Besides which, we all killed her.

Wat?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 24 septembre 2010 - 02:51 .

[AntiChri5]

If by "fast enough" you mean "standing there while one's SMG penetrates my barriers, then my hardsuit, then my hardened skin weave and cybernetic implants," then yes.

And how long that takes is variable, depending on difficulty, so unless we want to introduce gameplay elements to the discussion we have to go by the books, in which it doesnt take long at all.

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...
If it was a perfectly valid Paragon option, you'd get freakin' Paragon points. Paragon and Renegade are gameplay distinctions.

That is about as metagaming an answer as you could give....  and a cop out.

Also, her enjoying shooting the volus is perfectly consistent with her stated desire to shoot up bad guys.

Again, metagaming, however the degree to which she enjoyed it should be worrisome.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 24 septembre 2010 - 02:58 .

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

And how long that takes is variable, depending on difficulty, so unless we want to introduce gameplay elements to the discussion we have to go by the books, in which it doesnt take long at all.

I don't recall any book where Shepard is being shot.

[Xilizhra]

And how long that takes is variable, depending on difficulty, so unless we want to introduce gameplay elements to the discussion we have to go by the books, in which it doesnt take long at all.

Have the books ever featured Shepard and his/her near invulnerability?

[AntiChri5]

If by "fast enough" you mean "standing there while one's SMG penetrates my barriers, then my hardsuit, then my hardened skin weave and cybernetic implants," then yes.

Besides which, you just admitted she is a threat. Which is my point.

Wat?

If you cant be bothered reading the debate going on then dont participate in it.



We are talking about the Eclipse captain in Mirandas loyalty mission at that point.

[Moiaussi]

Optimystic_X wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

So it is possible, if you do not act fast enough, for one to kill you?

If by "fast enough" you mean "standing there while one's SMG penetrates my barriers, then my hardsuit, then my hardened skin weave and cybernetic implants," then yes.

Only the barrier protects your head, you are at point blank, and you are risking a lot that she couldn't just get a lucky shot in. Again, we do know that one-shotting can happen even in situations it wouldn't be expected possible.

[Moiaussi]

Optimystic_X wrote...

I don't recall any book where Shepard is being shot.

Why does it have to be Shepard being shot to count as precident?

[AntiChri5]

I don't recall any book where Shepard is being shot.

Have the books ever featured Shepard and his/her near invulnerability?

Shepard doesnt have the magical ability to repel bullets. He is as vulnerable as any oher soldier, simply more skilled.



The books give us general information on the way sheilds and weapons work.

[Kid_SixXx]

AntiChri5 wrote...
Watch the cutscene again. His gun (and complete attention) jump from one target to the next so erratically Shep is able to knock him out. His mental state hinders him so much Shepard is able to neutralise him.

I watched with complete attention.  Telon's behavior is erratic which can either be good or bad.

The situation is worse because he is armed and you are not. 

Shep is able to KO him as a Renegade because the script says he can.  He doesn't even try to talk Telon down and move in slowly in order to get close enough to strike the blow.

He just walks up to an armed opponant becaue the game says he can.  Shields or no, walking right up to an armed and unstable opponant in a threatening manner while unarmed is arrogant, reckless, and kinda dumb..

AntiChri5 wrote...

She wasnt reasoned with, reasoning with someone is when you convince them to see your side and accomodate you.

Uh, she does accomodate you by standing down and telling you everything she knows and ratting out the organization she just earned membership in. 

She is either more afraid of you than a reprisal from Eclipse or secretly hopes that Wasea or perhaps Morinth kills you before anyone else finds out what she's done.

AntiChri5 wrote...

If you let someone get their way you have not reasoned with them.

How is whether she escapes or not a criteria for being receptive to reason? 

Wrex backs down.  Elnora backs down.  Doesn't get much simpler.

AntiChri5 wrote...

You do not know her combat capabilities.

On the contrary.

Shepard has run across an Asari commando unit at least once (most noteably, Benezia's troops at Peak 15 on Noveria) and Asari slavers (Nasana's sister) before the fight with Eclipse, so yes, he does indeed know Elnora's potential combat capability by virtue of fighting against other Asari in the past. 

The thing that Shepard doesn't know are Elnora's intentions.... which she displays once she realizes she can trade information in return for mercy and live to do whatever another day.

AntiChri5 wrote...

The moment she reached for her gun and pointed it at you it ceased to be a negotiation and become a combat situation. She broke the negotiations by making an aggressive move.

It was a combat situation when Telon drew first yet you still let Telon walk.  Telon being unstable was a far worse candidate for negotiation than Elnora was.

The sooner everyone abandons these straw man arguments and admits to themselves that killing Elnora is a matter of personal playstyle as a gamer and not faux justification, the better off we'll all be.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:10 .

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Besides which, you just admitted she is a threat. Which is my point.

A dog can be a threat if you stand around like an idiot while it bites you.
Elnora cannot kill me quickly enough to prevent me from defending myself, therefore killing her pre-emptively is not necessary - and thus, murder, not self-defense.

AntiChri5 wrote...

Killers are quite often cowards.

Hence the qualifier "hardened."

AntiChri5 wrote...
I have. The action you must take depends on what training you received. It only took Liara a moment to cast a Singularity.

Biotic attacks have ALWAYS required a throwing motion. See ME1.

AntiChri5 wrote...
It is perfectly relevent, it tales the slightest instant to angle a gun up a few degrees.

Which shaves what, 5 seconds off the 30 she needs to penetrate my barriers? Even with phasic rounds.

AntiChri5 wrote...
The degree to which she is a threat is not changing. I have nothing to lose by negotiating.

When Elnora pulls her gun the degree to which she is a threat increases, and now negotiating disadvantages me.

Elnora drawing an SMG is still less a threat than Enyala with her Krogan shotgun already drawn.

2 can indeed increase to 3, but it is still less than 8.

AntiChri5 wrote...
Besides which, we all killed her.

Of course, after she attacked.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 24 septembre 2010 - 03:06 .

[Xilizhra]

Shepard doesnt have the magical ability to repel bullets. He is as vulnerable as any oher soldier, simply more skilled.

It's true, heavy skin weave and other cybernetic enhancements aren't technically magical. Just sufficiently advanced technology.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Shepard doesnt have the magical ability to repel bullets. He is as vulnerable as any oher soldier, simply more skilled.

The books give us general information on the way sheilds and weapons work.

He has better gear AND training than ANYONE in the books. A lone, green merc is no threat to him.

[Moiaussi]

Optimystic_X wrote...

He has better gear AND training than ANYONE in the books. A lone, green merc is no threat to him.

1) You don't know how 'green' she is. She is young, but could easily have started younger.

2) She is not entirely alone, just alone in the room. There are still plenty of mercs in the building. If you let her go, she definately is not alone.

3) You are completely dismissing the risk of a lucky shot. Just because someone isn't skilled enough to deliberately kill you doesn't mean they can't kill you.

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's true, heavy skin weave and other cybernetic enhancements aren't technically magical. Just sufficiently advanced technology.

Shepard may or may not have heavy skin weave yet. Even if he does, it is a safe bet that it doesn't cover 100% of his body (eg. eyes).

[AntiChri5]

[quote]I watched with complete attention.  Telon's behavior is erratic which can either be good or bad.



The situation is worse because he is armed and you are not.  



Shep is able to KO him as a Renegade because the script says he can.  He doesn't even try to talk Telon down and move in slowly in order to get close enough to strike the blow.



He just walks up to an armed opponant becaue the game says he can.  Shields or no, walking right up to an armed and unstable opponant in a threatening manner while unarmed is arrogant, reckless, and kinda dumb..[/quote]



"It doesnt matter that it worked, it shouldnt have because i say so. The game is wrong."



[quote]Uh, she does accomodate you by standing down and telling you everything she knows and ratting out the organization she just earned membership in.  



She is either more afraid of you than a reprisal from Eclipse or secretly hopes that Wasea or perhaps Morinth kills you before anyone else finds out what she's done.[/quote]



That isnt accomodating you. She doesnt lose anything she cares about, she does not compromise at all.



She gets her way.



[quote]How is whether she escapes or not a criteria for being receptive to reason? 



Wrex backs down.  Elnora backs down.  Doesn't get much simpler.[/quote]



Her goal is to escape. Wrex's goal is to stop you from blowing up the Genophage cure.



She got what she wanted (escape) without giving up anything she valued. You did not reach a compromise, you gave her what she wanted. She never backed down.



Wrex was convinced that the cure would enslave his people. He was reasoned with, he was negotiated with, we reached a compromise.



He backed down.



[quote]Shepard has run across an Asari commando unit before so yes, he does indeed know her combat capabilities by virtue of fighting against Asari in the past.  



If he can drop a whole commando unit backed up by an Asari matron with the assist of his squadmates, what chance does Elnora really have in the close confines of that room and without any backup?



The thing that Shepard doesn't know are Elnora's intentions.... which she displays once she realizes she can trade information in return for mercy and live to do whatever another day.[/quote]



Having killed asari does not mean you could kill all asari. She could have the ability to use Singularity (Liara proves any asari could), something no asari does to you.



[quote]It was a combat situation when Telon drew first yet you still let Telon walk.  Telon being unstable was a far worse candidate for negotiation than Elnora was.



The sooner everyone abandons these straw man arguments and admits to themselves that killing Elnora is a matter of personal playstyle as a gamer and not faux justification, the better off we'll all be.[/quote]



You cannot ignore the context. Telin is an obvious victim of my enemies, Elnora is an obvious member of the organisation i am fighting. And i did not "let Telon walk" or even attempt to negotiate with him. I disarmed him, and let another noncombatant (and clear victim) remove him from the hotzone.



[quote]A dog can be a threat if you stand around like an idiot while it bites you.

Elnora cannot kill me quickly enough to prevent me from defending myself, therefore killing her pre-emptively is not necessary - and thus, murder, not self-defense.[/quote]



You cannot know how long it would take Elnora to kill you.



[quote]Hence the qualifier "hardened."[/quote]



A wonderfully vauge and irrelevent qualifier.



[quote]Biotic attacks have ALWAYS required a throwing motion. See ME1.[/quote]



Look at how long it takes for Liara to cast a Singularity.



A second at the most.



[quote]Which shaves what, 5 seconds off the 30 she needs to penetrate my barriers? Even with phasic rounds.[/quote]



I would say it takes less then five seconds of concentrated fire to strip your barriers.. Less then one to move a gun less then an inch.



[quote]Elnora drawing a gun is still less a threat than Enyala with hers already drawn.



2 can indeed increase to 3, but it is still less than 8.[/quote]



Agreed. You seem to miss my point entirely. My goal is to prevent that number from increasing. Again, i lose nothing by pausing to negotiate with the captain because she is not becoming a greater threat. I do lose something by continuing to negotiate when Elnora becomes more of a threat.



[quote]A lone, green merc is no threat to him.[/quote]



Wrong. We have no knowledge of her combat capability or experience and must treat her as a serious threat. Everyone with a gun is a threat.

[PsyrenY]

Moiaussi wrote...
1) You don't know how 'green' she is. She is young, but could easily have started younger.

She joined the Eclipse the night before you meet her, regardless of when you do the quest.

Moiaussi wrote...
2) She is not entirely alone, just alone in the room. There are still plenty of mercs in the building. If you let her go, she definately is not alone.

"Alone in the room" is the state that matters for a self-defense claim. Theoretical mercenaries that she could potentially meet up with and add to their supposed offensive ability do not place Shepard in imminent harm.

Moiaussi wrote...
3) You are completely dismissing the risk of a lucky shot. Just because someone isn't skilled enough to deliberately kill you doesn't mean they can't kill you.

Shepard could also trip and break his neck while walking through the Normandy. There's a point beyond which we have to be realistic instead of being afraid of every possible minor occurrence.

Moiaussi wrote...

Shepard may or may not have heavy skin weave yet. Even if he does, it is a safe bet that it doesn't cover 100% of his body (eg. eyes).

Why is that a safe bet? All alliance marines have ocular implants - see ME1.
And even phasic rounds do not simply fly through shields like they aren't there; shields have been upgraded in the 2 years since ME1, see the codex.

[AntiChri5]

She joined the Eclipse the night before you meet her, regardless of when you do the quest.

Irrelevant.



Joining Eclipse is not the only way in the universe to learn how to fight.