528 réponses à ce sujet

[Godeskian]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I can't quote when posting from my phone,

I can! HA!

It's a bit of a pain in the arse though.

Lucky you, my phone sucks though, so I'm glad to be at home again, and thank you for coming to my defense regarding my roleplay. You may find my response to Optimystic amusing.

[AntiChri5]

shields have been upgraded in the 2 years since ME1

So have weapons.

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...
You cannot know how long it would take Elnora to kill you.

Wrong: Shepard has been shot at by SMGs numerous times, actually.

AntiChri5 wrote...
Look at how long it takes for Liara to cast a Singularity.

A second at the most.

Releasing your gun, rearing your arm back and flinging it forward takes less than a second? And Shepard has no reflexes, right? Nor his squad?

AntiChri5 wrote...
I would say it takes less then five seconds of concentrated fire to strip your barriers.. Less then one to move a gun less then an inch.

So Shepard + squad can't drop Elnora in 5 seconds?

AntiChri5 wrote...
Agreed. You seem to miss my point entirely. My goal is to prevent that number from increasing. Again, i lose nothing by pausing to negotiate with the captain because she is not becoming a greater threat. I do lose something by continuing to negotiate when Elnora becomes more of a threat.

What exactly do you "lose" by talking down a frightened kid? Is it somehow beneath you? Are you that bloodthirsty?

AntiChri5 wrote...
Wrong. We have no knowledge of her combat capability or experience and must treat her as a serious threat.
Everyone with a gun is a threat.

So you DID shoot Wrex!

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:02 .

[AntiChri5]

Lucky you, my phone sucks though

Im using my iphone. I cant press the "quote" or "edit" buttons but i can manually quote someone.

[Moiaussi]

Optimystic_X wrote...

She joined the Eclipse the night before you meet her, regardless of when you do the quest.

Metagaming. How do you know that when you meet her?

"Alone in the room" is the state that matters for a self-defense claim. Theoretical mercenaries that she could potentially meet up with and add to their supposed offensive ability do not place Shepard in imminent harm.

It is still a battle zone. Enemy could show up outside the door at other time. If you are talking about them having supposed offensive ability, why do you shoot back at them? Why are you not ignoring all these impotent psuedo-combatants even though they are shooting at you? You obviously do consider them a threat. You still consider them a threat even when they are down to just one, even though that one (according to you) is definately not a threat.

Shepard could also trip and break his neck while walking through the Normandy. There's a point beyond which we have to be realistic instead of being afraid of every possible minor occurrence.

He could, but I strongly suspect that an actual gun does present more of a threat than a floor. Nice straw man though.

Why is that a safe bet? All alliance marines have ocular implants - see ME1.
And even phasic rounds do not simply fly through shields like they aren't there; shields have been upgraded in the 2 years since ME1, see the codex.

Guns have been upgraded too, hence the thermal clips. There is no way though that the occular implants are more resistant than actual armoured skin. The implants have to not just be transparent, but have to be optically transparent, i.e. not restricting vision.

You are really stretching here.

[Godeskian]

Optimystic_X wrote...
"Paragon pragmatist" is an oxymoron. Paragons are idealists.

I'll concede that it is an oxymoron. I have a particular character type that I play in Mass Effect which I haven't been able to come up with a better name for. If you'd like to try once you've read my post, please do.

You can be a Paragon, or you can be a pragmatist. Being both results in extremely inconsistent behavior.

Sad thing is, you're wrong for all the right reasons, and I will ask you kindly to not presume without questioning what I mean. You never asked what I meant by 'paragon pragmatist'. You attached your own bias onto the phrase and declared me inconsistant.

I've been an active roleplayer for almost twenty years, and I believe I'm being far more consistant than you give me credit for.

So what is a Paragon Pragmatist? A paragon pragmatist (concept built off the 'skyllian blitz defender' background) is a soldier who is an idealist at any time outside of combat. She will give you second chances and try for diplomacy and is generally a nice guy who could be used on recruiting posters for how being a soldier doesn't make you an jerk.

Untill the bullets start to fly. The moment you fire a gun at him, he will take you down. He will cease to care about your motivations, about your politics or your perceived pressures. If you are in a combat zone, and you are not a civilian, then you are a target. A dead target. When the soldier takes over for the person, then he becomes a 'no second chances' combat pragmatist. He will shoot at the tank under the Krogan, and take the shot at the mech through Archangel's rifle

And he will kill Elnora.

For starters, she shot at him. She claims it was under duress, but Shepard has no proof for that. The only fact he has, is that she shot at him. Strike 1.

She is wearing the enemy armour. Why she's wearing it isn't relevant. He's in a combat zone and she's wearing the enemy armour and wielding the enemy gun. Strike two. 

Lastly, she is not a civilian. She is a mercenary in a company that requires an extra-judicial killing as an entrance exam. As he is not a civilian and in a combat zone wearing the enemy uniform and having fired on him, she is in Shepards words 'on the wrong side'. Strike three, she's dead.

Now, what would you call my paragon pragmatist since you call the phrase oxymoronic? The consumate idealist outside of combat, the perfect killing machine inside it?

Ironically, I have another character who is the reverse. She saw so much death on Mindoar and as the butcher of Torfan that while she's a jerk outside of combat, during combat she won't kill people unless necesarry, and Elnora is far to trivial a threat to kill. It's not forgiveness, it's not kindness, it's utter disinterest. I call him a Renegade Hero. Also something of an oxymoron.

[Godeskian]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Lucky you, my phone sucks though

Im using my iphone. I cant press the "quote" or "edit" buttons but i can manually quote someone.

Can't afford one of those sadly. 

[Xilizhra]

"It doesnt matter that it worked, it shouldnt have because i say so. The game is wrong."

Good to know that the game is also not wrong about the only way for Elnora to shoot you being the choice of the Renegade interrupt, yes?

For starters, she shot at him. She claims it was under duress, but Shepard has no proof for that. The only fact he has, is that she shot at him. Strike 1.

Wrong. She did not, in fact, shoot at Shepard, or if she did, Shepard has no proof of it. I'm glad to know, however, that he's a consistent murderer.

[Moiaussi]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Wrong: Shepard has been shot at by SMGs numerous times, actually.

And the Normandy was crippled from an encounter it should have easily been able to disengage from. Shepard has one shotted significant numbers of others in various cut scenes, despite the fact that it should have taken multiple shots to take them down, and would have if in 'normal' combat.

AntiChri5 wrote...

Releasing your gun, rearing your arm back and flinging it forward takes less than a second? And Shepard has no reflexes, right? Nor his squad?

Does not matter if Shepard goes down to a lucky shot, or is thrown off guard by an unexpected biotic attack then shot, or is shot, not killed by Elnora, but by a mercenary unit coming unexpectedly through the door and hitting Shepard's weakened shields with Shepard off guard.

So Shepard + squad can't drop Elnora in 5 seconds?

Again, no problem unless Elnora gets lucky.

What exactly do you "lose" by talking down a frightened kid? Is it somehow beneath you? Are you that bloodthirsty?

The question is 'Is she just a frightened kid?' That is a judgement call. You might consider yourself to be Solomon, but that doesn't make your judgement equivalent.

[AntiChri5]

Wrong: Shepard has been shot at by SMGs numerous times, actually.

And what upgrades has she customised her smg with? Is she using phasic rounds? Disruptor rounds? Explosive rounds? How good a shot is she? Does she have grenades? Does she have an Omni-Tool? Is she capable of using Overload? Too many variables, we cant know.

Releasing your gun, rearing your arm back and flinging it forward takes less than a second? And Shepard has no reflexes, right? Nor his squad?

Have another go through LotSB. How long does it take for Liara to cast? At times, less then a second.

So Shepard + squad can't drop Elnora in 5 seconds?

There is no way to know this until after the event. Does she have flashbangs? Very good sheilds? Singularity?

What exactly do you "lose" by talking down a frightened kid? Is it somehow beneath you? Are you that bloodthirsty?

She isnt a frightened kid, but a twisted killer. After she went for the gun, Shepard realised the scared kid thing was just an act and she was just another merc trying to kill him. He killed her first. Later, he was pleasently surprised to discover she was the killer. He thought that had been one of the other mercenaries. And i did not lose anything because i did not allow her to become a greater threat.

So you DID shoot Wrex!

This shit again? I have already explained how i dealt with Wrex and why three times in this ****ing thread alone, more than once to you. At this point you are just being a ****ing troll.



Wrex was a threat, as was Elnora. Wrex was also a friend, Elnora wasnt. The threats werw different, and i dealt with them differently.



I talked Wrex down. I dealt with the threat.



Want to bring up Wrex again?

[Moiaussi]

Anti, despite the fact we are arguing the same side here I have to ask you... is all the extra spacing in your posts really neccessary? iPhone or not?

[Kid_SixXx]

AntiChri5 wrote...

That isnt accomodating you. She doesnt lose anything she cares about.

Motive and loss of something she holds dear are incidental and irrelevant.

AntiChri5 wrote...

She never backed down.

She  gave you the infomation you wanted in exchange for her life.  She compromised.

She doesn't use biotics and holsters her gun in the face of a no-win situation.  She backed down.

AntiChri5 wrote...

Wrex was convinced that the cure would enslave his people. He was reasoned with, he was negotiated with, we reached a compromise.

He backed down.

Correct.

AntiChri5 wrote...

Having killed asari does not mean you could kill all asari.

She could have the ability to use Singularity.

She could've but she didn't because she is outmanned and outgunned.

She also cannot spontaneously generate a Singularity.  Biotic training info from the Codex suggests that it take some sort of somatic componant to aid in manifesting the technique.

Meaning that she will have to make some sort of conrolled gesture.  If she did that in plain view of Shepard and Co., she'd have been achieving room temperature shortly thereafter since Shepard and Co would be dumping pistol rounds into her at close range.

AntiChri5 wrote...

(Liara proves any asari could), something no asari does to you

How does Liara being an exceptional individual and the daughter of one of the more powerful biotics of her time equate to Elnora being just as talented?

Moreover, if Elnora could've generated a Singularity, then the time to do so would've been while she was hiding as you don't need to aim a Singularity.  Just manifest it and let the gravity well do the rest.

And she could've done that without having to worry about retrieving her SMG, just as Samara used her biotics against the other Eclipse merc without benefit of possessing a firearm.

Elnora is no Liara.  not by a longshot.

AntiChri5 wrote...

You cannot ignore the context.

I am not ignoring the context, You OTOH are adding metagame caveats to justify one action over the other.

We're all doing this, actually which makes this discussion ultimately futile.

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:53 .

[Godeskian]

Xilizhra wrote...

For starters, she shot at him. She claims it was under duress, but Shepard has no proof for that. The only fact he has, is that she shot at him. Strike 1.

Wrong. She did not, in fact, shoot at Shepard, or if she did, Shepard has no proof of it. I'm glad to know, however, that he's a consistent murderer.

She says

'Wait, Stop, I didn't fire my weapon once. I pretended to because the other eclipse sisters were watching, but I didn't really shoot.'

I concede your point. She claims not to have shot. However given the personality of my Shepard, which I described in detail and you promptly ignored, he would not have accepted that claim as valid.

And yes, he is a consistent killer, in combat zones only though. I thought I made that point perfectly clear when I said that he was a perfect idealist outside of combat, and a perfect killer within.

[Godeskian]

Moiaussi wrote...
The question is 'Is she just a frightened kid?' That is a judgement call. You might consider yourself to be Solomon, but that doesn't make your judgement equivalent.

This is an interesting point. She could be the worlds greatest actress. For all you know, she could be a 300 year old Asari powerhouse who runs the eclipse, pretending to be a frightened girl hoping to make her escape.

The assumption that she is completely honest about being a frightened kid is exactly that, an assumption.

[AntiChri5]

Good to know that the game is also not wrong about the only way for Elnora to shoot you being the choice of the Renegade interrupt, yes?

You mean when i call her out on her bull**** and tell her it was her choice to become a murderer and she shoots at me?

[AntiChri5]

Anti, despite the fact we are arguing the same side here I have to ask you... is all the extra spacing in your posts really neccessary? iPhone or not?

I have no idea why it happens. Irritates the hell out of me, especially since i get such a damn tiny space to type in. There is one space between the quote and this paragraph. No doubt when i actually post it will be a gaping hole.

Motive and loss of something she holds dear are incidental and irrelevant.

They show she isnt willing to give anything she values: She will not compromise.

She holstered her gun and gave you the infomation you wanted in exchange for her life. She backed down.

She doesnt even have the information i want, how could she give it to me? Her holstering her weapon is not a point in her favour. She never should have raised it. Besides which, this never happened in my game. Backing down would be if she agreed to turn herself in until to the policewoman until the investigation into Eclipse is over.

She could've but she didn't because she is outmanned and outgunned.



She also cannot spontaneously generate a Singularity.  Biotic training info from the Codex suggests that it take some sort of somatic componant to aid in manifesting the technique.



Meaning that she will have to make some sort of conrolled gesture.  By the time she does that, she will be room temperature since you'll be dumping pistol rounds into her at close range.

The biotic training codex is about humans, i believe. It mentions elsewhere that asari physiology makes them natural biotics.



Also, even if i am wrong about the codex, the action she trains ro trigger a singularity could be a throwing motion, flapping her arms like wings, or winking.

How does Liara being an exceptional individual and the daughter of one of the more powerful biotics of her time equate to Elnora being just as talented?



Obviously Elnora isn't as talented otherwise she would've used those talents to her advantage in the scenario you suggested earlier.



Elnora apparently drops her SMG in the course of saving her own neck while leaving the teammates of the merc band she was so happy to join to their fate at the hands of Shepard's squad.



She is no Liara.

It doesnt mean she does, it means she could. You cant know without metagaming. When we first meet Liara, she cowers while we fight Geth and Krogan. The entire point of mentioning Liara is to prove that even an untested, untried, untrained and very young asari is capable of great biotic power. Elnora is a threat.

I am not ignoring the context, You OTOH are adding metagame caveats to justify one action over the other.

No i am not. Shepard killed her because, while we are negotiating her surrender she reaches for her gun. Shepard concludes that there are two reasons she could have done this.



A) To kill him. The only rational response is to kill her.



To strengthen her position by attempting to intimidate him.



Either way, it shows she is no longer interested in surrender and this is now a combat situation, like all the other mercs in the building i killed.

[PsyrenY]

Moiaussi wrote...



Metagaming. How do you know that when you meet her?

She tells you. Not metagaming.

Moiaussi wrote...

It is still a battle zone. Enemy could show up outside the door at other time. If you are talking about them having supposed
offensive ability, why do you shoot back at them? Why are you not
ignoring all these impotent psuedo-combatants even though they are
shooting at you? You obviously do consider them a threat. You still
consider them a threat even when they are down to just one, even though
that one (according to you) is definately not a threat.

None of them were hiding under desks and hoping I would pass them by.ry possible minor occurrence.

Moiaussi wrote...

He could, but I strongly suspect that an actual gun does present more of a threat than a floor. Nice straw man though.

Her actual SMG is somehow more threatening to you people than Enaya's actual Claymore.

Moiaussi wrote...

Guns
have been upgraded too, hence the thermal clips. There is no way though
that the occular implants are more resistant than actual armoured skin.
The implants have to not just be transparent, but have to be optically
transparent, i.e. not restricting vision.

None of that says anything about the vulnerability of Shepard's skin/head to low-caliber sidearm fire. And she's not aiming at your head anyway.

Moiaussi wrote...

You are really stretching here.

Back at you.

AntiChri5 wrote...

This shit again? I have already explained how i dealt with Wrex and why three times in this ****ing thread alone, more than once to you. At this point you are just being a ****ing troll.

Wrex was a threat, as was Elnora. Wrex was also a friend, Elnora wasnt. The threats werw different, and i dealt with them differently.

I talked Wrex down. I dealt with the threat.

Want to bring up Wrex again?

I can only conclude that your Shepard is insane then, or really hates asari.

[AntiChri5]

I can only conclude that your Shepard is insane then, or really hates asari.

Bull****.



Stop making absurd acusations.



Why do you keep suggesting the two situations are the same when they clearly are not?



Wrex is a friend who has a valid and legitimate issue with my leadership who literally begs me to talk him down.



Elnora is an enemy combatant in an enemy uniform in an enemy base who pretends to surrender then reaches for her gun as soon as i question her.



The situations are not the same, stop suggesting they are.

[PsyrenY]

Moiaussi wrote...

And the Normandy was crippled from an encounter it should have easily been able to disengage from.

Completely irrelevant to this discussion. For one, the Collectors were an unknown quantity, young asari are not.

Moiaussi wrote...
Shepard has one shotted significant numbers of others in various cut scenes, despite the fact that it should have taken multiple shots to take them down, and would have if in 'normal' combat.

None of those people were Shepard, so this is irrelevant as well.

AntiChri5 wrote...

Does not matter if Shepard goes down to a lucky shot, or is thrown off guard by an unexpected biotic attack then shot, or is shot, not killed by Elnora, but by a mercenary unit coming unexpectedly through the door and hitting Shepard's weakened shields with Shepard off guard.

I agree. What does matter is the likelihood of those various fantasies.

Moiaussi wrote...
Again, no problem unless Elnora gets lucky.

"She might get lucky" is not adequate justification for self-defense.

Moiaussi wrote...
The question is 'Is she just a frightened kid?' That is a judgement call. You might consider yourself to be Solomon, but that doesn't make your judgement equivalent.

Paragon Shepard obviously judges that she is.

[Kid_SixXx]

She doesnt even have the information i want?

How do you know that?  You never bothered to interrogate her.  You shot her.

How could she give it to me?

She can't after she's dead. This is usually why you try to take people alive.

Her holstering her weapon is not a point in her favour. She never should have raised it.

I can't say I disagree with this, but Telon also raises his weapon first before you even have a chance to draw your own.

Yet some how you conclude that an emotionally unbalanced Salarian who has the drop on you is somehow more dangerous than an Asari with three people training weapons on her.

Besides which, this never happened in my game. Backing down would be if she agreed to turn herself in until to the policewoman until the investigation into Eclipse is over.

You are adding the caveat of surrender in your definition of backing down. 

Those definitions are not mutually exclusive.

The biotic training codex is about humans, i believe. It mentions elsewhere that asari physiology makes them natural biotics.

Also, even if i am wrong about the codex, the action she trains ro trigger a singularity could be a throwing motion, flapping her arms like wings, or winking.

And Shepard has enountered enough Asari biotics in his life to know when one is about to use those talents (ex. Benezia's arm gestures in ME)

Elnora makes no such gesture. None at all.  She goes for her gun while three people who just mowed down her teammates are training weapons on her.

It doesnt mean she does, it means she could.

But she doesn't.  At all..

Shepard killed her because, while we are negotiating her surrender she reaches for her gun. Shepard concludes that there are two reasons she could have done this

A) To kill him. The only rational response is to kill her

To strengthen her position by attempting to intimidate him.

A) A completely suicidal course of action given the presence of your squad as back-up and the fact that you already have weapons drawn. 

Renegade interrupt shows just how suicidal that plan really is but it is either shoot and pray for the best or die with a full magazine.  Elnora choses the former after Renegade Shep forces her hand.

 By the time she draws her gun, she has already pleaded for mercy. 

How in the world is she going to intimidate you when you are ready / aimed and have her outnumbered three to one?

Modifié par Kid_SixXx, 24 septembre 2010 - 05:27 .

[PsyrenY]

AntiChri5 wrote...

Why do you keep suggesting the two situations are the same when they clearly are not?

Wrex is a friend who has a valid and legitimate issue with my leadership who literally begs me to talk him down.

Elnora is an enemy combatant in an enemy uniform in an enemy base who pretends to surrender then reaches for her gun as soon as i question her.

The situations are not the same, stop suggesting they are.

Of course they are not the same. The problem is that the facts can easily go in the other direction.

Wrex is an enraged krogan battlemaster.
Elnora is a frightened young asari.

However, Paragon Shepard acts the same way regardless - he does not attack.

You can blow Elnora away if that is what your character would do - I have never disputed that. But it is not a Paragon act to do so.

[wizardryforever]

Just one interesting point to throw out there before I go back to lurking.  Why does everyone automatically believe Pitne For is telling the truth when he says that all Eclipse sisters commit murder to join?  It isn't like he's the most reliable source, considering he definitely wants you to kill all of the Eclipse so they don't catch him.  Even if he is telling the truth, he could be exaggerating.  We have no way to know for sure.  Would people still be so quick to kill Elnora if they didn't believe Pitne spoke the gospel truth?

[Godeskian]

Completely irrelevant to this discussion. For one, the Collectors were an unknown quantity, young asari are not.

You don't actually know that she's a 'young' asari. They don't show age the way we do. Remember that the young Asari Liara was over a century old. Elnora could easily be the same age, or older. (unless of course I've missed some line of dialogue stating her age)

[Godeskian]

Incidentally Optimystic, I was rather hoping you'd respond to what I wrote responding to your comments about a paragon pragmatist.

[PsyrenY]

Godeskian wrote...

Incidentally Optimystic, I was rather hoping you'd respond to what I wrote responding to your comments about a paragon pragmatist.

There are a lot of quotes here, forgive me if I miss a few. I'm only human.

I'll take a look back.

wizardryforever wrote...

Just one interesting point to throw out there before I go back to lurking. Why does everyone automatically believe Pitne For is telling the truth when he says that all Eclipse sisters commit murder to join? It isn't like he's the most reliable source, considering he definitely wants you to kill all of the Eclipse so they don't catch him. Even if he is telling the truth, he could be exaggerating. We have no way to know for sure. Would people still be so quick to kill Elnora if they didn't believe Pitne spoke the gospel truth?

To be fair, Zaeed does corroborate this, though he may be going off Pitne's statement too. Even so, getting that info hinges on you even bringing Zaeed along, never mind what his source might be.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 24 septembre 2010 - 05:30 .