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[Talogrungi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

I view her as an enemy combatant and usually end her when she makes what I perceive as an aggressive movement.

Might be considered harsh by some; but better she lies dead on the tile than I do.

You know, it's not like you don't bring your weapon up to defend yourself if you don't take the Renegade interrupt... you just take the time to say that you're going to kill her. Also, she in fact does shoot you if you take the interrupt, and it does nothing.

Makes no odds to me; she's armed, she's wearing the uniform of the enemy, and she makes an aggressive movement.

Regardless of her motivations or character, those three things are a guaranteed death sentence when my Shepard is in the room.

Modifié par Talogrungi, 21 septembre 2010 - 07:53 .

[Xilizhra]

Renegade, I assume?

[Talogrungi]

Generally, no. I'm not a purist and tend to go with what seems sensible without being an outrageous do-gooder or a cackling villain. Killing Elnora is just .. sensible.

[CheeseEnchilada]

Nyaore wrote...

I personally always pegged Elnora as someone who was way in over their head at the time you run across her in the story, and who might not have consciously been aware of the implications that her actions might have had. To her being in the Eclipse Sisters is akin to a status symbol, something she can lord over her friends whenever she wishes as a way of elevating her standing in their eyes. I don't really think she understands what she is doing by being a part of that organization - at the moment at least. Whether or not she comes to grasp the situation at a later point and continues to murder people or chooses to go straight, however, is up for debate.

Regardless of that fact however, most of my Shepards tend to shoot her as soon as she raises her gun up the second time during the conversation. Naive or not, you should never raise your gun up at someone when you're begging for your life. Each of those Shepards perceived that action as a direct threat, especially in regards to what the officer tells them about how the Eclipse Sisters earn their uniforms, and hold very little remorse for ending the Asari's life. Had the situations been reversed, I very much doubt that Elnora wouldn't have done the same thing if given half the chance. Hell, from what I heard on the recording I very much doubt she'd have even bothered talking to us in the first place if we begged for our lives. She's still new to the killing business, and probably would have gotten a thrill out of it before the weight of her actions had a chance to settle in.

Agree fully with the whole post, but the bolded line especially. My Paragon Shepard ended up shooting her, strictly because of what she had heard about the Eclipse, and Elnora's constant movement when it came to her gun. It didn't feel safe.

OP makes some insightful comments though, and I have to say I always feel a little guitly about Elnora. Do I wish there was some other way to apprehend her? Yes. Do I feel a little guilty, seeing as she's just a kid? Yes. Does that keep me from shooting her? No. That would be meta-gaming, just as hearing Elnora talk about the volus and thinking 'Revenge!' would be. I always imagined my Shep shooting, moving on, but feeling slightly guilty when passing by the asari at Gateway Personal Defense, and hearing her talk about the thrill of being in Eclipse.

...Then again, the same Shep also chose to wound the hostage Vasir had during LotSB. Felt awful about that later on as well, but my Shep tends to panic a bit during standoffs and become trigger-happy. Maybe not the best Spectre quality

[MrnDvlDg161]

lol --- I'm usually always 100 percent Paragon, the bar is always maxed. Certain situations however warrant what the scope of a " Renegade" option may be.



I mean what was the wrong or right answer to the hostage situation and the specter? Either or something had to be done so the innocent by-standard gets shot with Vasir. I am sure there are some people who couldn't bring themselves to even do that --- but its something Shepard must do.



In theory, the entire DLC was unethical in terms of Paragon vs Renegade.

[Xilizhra]

Talogrungi wrote...

Generally, no. I'm not a purist and tend to go with what seems sensible without being an outrageous do-gooder or a cackling villain. Killing Elnora is just .. sensible.

Drawing on her is. The death threat isn't really necessary.

[MikaelNovasun]

Xilizhra wrote...

So you are a murderer, then. Enjoy, presumably.

She draws a weapon and points it at you......

Is a police officer who shoots someone threatening them with a gun a murder?

That is how I look at it, if she wouldn't have pulled the gun it would be a different story.

I wish I could have just shot her as soon as she drew the gun instead of making a comment and then shoot her.

[MrnDvlDg161]

CheeseEnchilada wrote...

Nyaore wrote...

I personally always pegged Elnora as someone who was way in over their head at the time you run across her in the story, and who might not have consciously been aware of the implications that her actions might have had. To her being in the Eclipse Sisters is akin to a status symbol, something she can lord over her friends whenever she wishes as a way of elevating her standing in their eyes. I don't really think she understands what she is doing by being a part of that organization - at the moment at least. Whether or not she comes to grasp the situation at a later point and continues to murder people or chooses to go straight, however, is up for debate.

Regardless of that fact however, most of my Shepards tend to shoot her as soon as she raises her gun up the second time during the conversation. Naive or not, you should never raise your gun up at someone when you're begging for your life. Each of those Shepards perceived that action as a direct threat, especially in regards to what the officer tells them about how the Eclipse Sisters earn their uniforms, and hold very little remorse for ending the Asari's life. Had the situations been reversed, I very much doubt that Elnora wouldn't have done the same thing if given half the chance. Hell, from what I heard on the recording I very much doubt she'd have even bothered talking to us in the first place if we begged for our lives. She's still new to the killing business, and probably would have gotten a thrill out of it before the weight of her actions had a chance to settle in.

Agree fully with the whole post, but the bolded line especially. My Paragon Shepard ended up shooting her, strictly because of what she had heard about the Eclipse, and Elnora's constant movement when it came to her gun. It didn't feel safe.

OP makes some insightful comments though, and I have to say I always feel a little guitly about Elnora. Do I wish there was some other way to apprehend her? Yes. Do I feel a little guilty, seeing as she's just a kid? Yes. Does that keep me from shooting her? No. That would be meta-gaming, just as hearing Elnora talk about the volus and thinking 'Revenge!' would be. I always imagined my Shep shooting, moving on, but feeling slightly guilty when passing by the asari at Gateway Personal Defense, and hearing her talk about the thrill of being in Eclipse.

...Then again, the same Shep also chose to wound the hostage Vasir had during LotSB. Felt awful about that later on as well, but my Shep tends to panic a bit during standoffs and become trigger-happy. Maybe not the best Spectre quality

Well yeah of course,  who wanted to really blow that woman way?  We were given a very narrow set of circumstance and choice.  As it is tragic, no one put a gun to her head to join Eclipse and it was also Eclipse it self that should have turned her away but did not do so --- and so with a mixture of that, a very bloody initation rite --- her choices and how things came about was her own doing.

Shepard  --- was simply a part of the inevitable.

[Talogrungi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

Generally, no. I'm not a purist and tend to go with what seems sensible without being an outrageous do-gooder or a cackling villain. Killing Elnora is just .. sensible.

Drawing on her is. The death threat isn't really necessary.

Yes, I could have done without the death threat; that is an unfortunate side affect of playing an RPG, one doesn't have as much control as perhaps one would like.

[OneDrunkMonk]

This from wiki:

The Commander can examine a log left by Elnora later in the mission
which reveals that she faked hating Eclipse and murdered a volus to join
— earlier in the mission, the police were looking for the murderer of a
volus
— which implies that Elnora was the culprit. Elnora displays great joy
in the kill, excitedly mentioning that her friends will be jealous. If
the Commander brings this evidence to the police, they promise to track
her down if the Commander had let her live. If Shepard kills Elnora, Detective Anaya expresses relief stating that it sounded like Elnora was just starting on her path of violence.


One playthrough I spared her then reported her. I killed her when she drew her weapon in another playthrough. My feeling is that she's a bit of a psychopath, she's all a glee about killing others and being in a gang.

[pharos_gryphon]

A fair bit of meta gaming perhaps, but I recall doing the segment with her the first time, being a sap and letting her go... and then finding the datapad. It was one of those "Oh hell no" moments where I went back to my previous save and shot her in the face. <.< All's well that ends well. Or something.

[Aggie Punbot]

To be honest, I think everyone metagames to an extent and that's not necessarily a bad thing. There are also situations in-game that cannot be logically reasoned out and that people just need to accept as being a consequence of them playing a video game. Killing Elnora and sparing her both have valid reasons for taking them, but anyone trying to lay a guilt trip on anyone else for their choice is kind of ridiculous.

[Nimander]

COULD Elnora be a little innocent Asari who only wanted to fight evil?



Certainly.



Is it LIKELY? No. You have to do a lot of 'could have' or 'what if' or such to make that fit. The evidence we have says otherwise.



Also, for the record, most types of Shephard are -killers-, not -murderers-. A semantic difference, but a rather important ones.



Personally, I tend to not kill her unless I have Zaeed with me. He reminds you right before that about Eclipse uniforms, so what with her pulling a gun, it's self defense. If you're in the military, you will be told pretty much that if they're waving a gun at you, you *shoot them*. IEDs and insurgents ain't no joke, people.

[PsyrenY]

Xilizhra wrote...
It was in my first post. The volus in question was selling them a drug that enhanced biotic powers but also acted as a lethal poison in large quantities, and failed to mention the second part. He himself would have been a murderer if Eclipse hadn't figured it out.

I don't think Pitne intended the chemical to KILL them (though he probably wouldn't have gotten too broken up over the eventuality.) Rather, he couldn't find any other saps to unload his toxic payload on and the Eclipse Sisters Did Not Do The Research. He didn't care if they used it or not, so long as they paid top dollar.

Terraneaux wrote...

The writers didn't give you a way to solve the problem without metagaming, in fact.  Then you hear a gloating message from her - it's like a bad DM saying 'ha ha got you.'  I'm assuming that Samara's recruitment mission was written by the guy who designed Samara herself, it explains the ridiculous non-choice your character is offered.

You are operating under the assumption that all problems presented in ME2 must be solved in ME2. Nassana Dantius has proven that this is not necessarily the case.

Did your "paragon" also let the factory workers die to stop Vido Santiago, simply because he gets no comeuppance in this game?

[Roamingmachine]

She's flying enemy colors.End of story.

I wouldn't listen to her anymore than i would to the batarians on Brining Down The Sky dlc ("Wait, we can solve this peacefully.We just came here to grab some slaves and blahblahblah").It was her choice to join the Eclipse corp fully knowing what it was about.If anything, she should be despised. Hiding in a locked room while the rest of her unit gets torn to bits by the Shepard meatgrinder and then actually trying to bargain her way out of it when discovered...Despicable coward.Shooting her was too easy on her.

[crimzontearz]

Xilizhra wrote...

she has no issue killing the Volus, yes, the Volus was a swindler BUT all eclipse merchs get their uniform by committing a murder, that her murder happened to be perpetrated against another criminal is just coincidental. You have no idea wether or not she would have objected to kill the chief inspector or Samara (if she had the chance).

Indeed I don't. Which is one reason I don't think she deserves to die.

She speaks of the murder with pride, boasting her superiority to the Volus and the fact she ambushed him and that her friends will be sooooooo jealous. Also, the murder happened only the night prior, the AML Demeter left before the murder, Elnore knew of the Ardat Yakshi being smuggled BEFORE being sent on her firt hit and she did it anyways which means she only started caring about that when Shepard pointed a gun to her face (to me at least).

I hope this isn't actually true, because if it is, it's a really annoying plot hole. Why the hell would Wasea let an untested potential recruit--an asari recruit, at that--know that they were involved in smuggling an Ardat-Yakshi? It would be an enormous security risk; she could have run at any time

Yes, you do not know but what you know is that given the knowledge of their activities prior to the assignment of the first hit she still went through with it.

Also Wasea specifically says "everything has gone to hell since we smuggled that filthy creature off world, first a justicar shows up and now you". The murder just happened the night prior so Elnora knew exactly what activities the eclipse are up to and still she not only went through with the murder but she also boasts about it and flaunts her status as an eclipse merc happily. My point stands.

[CaptainZaysh]

As a former soldier I just want to point out that, in reality, letting an enemy combatant just wander off uncontrolled would be ridiculously naive.

[Gyroscopic_Trout]

TS2Aggie wrote...

To be honest, I think everyone metagames to an extent and that's not necessarily a bad thing. There are also situations in-game that cannot be logically reasoned out and that people just need to accept as being a consequence of them playing a video game. Killing Elnora and sparing her both have valid reasons for taking them, but anyone trying to lay a guilt trip on anyone else for their choice is kind of ridiculous.

True enough, but without the spirit of lively debate (and I'm being charitable calling it that), most internet forums would be ghost towns.

As for my two cents, and I don't know if this will register quite the same with Americans but up here in the frozen wastes of Toronto, we tend to get our panties in a bunch any time the police have to shoot someone.  Oh he only had a knife, they say, why couldn't you have disarmed him, or was he really a threat, maybe he was just scared, did the police overreact.  Qeue berieved family members, etc.  The sad truth is this that in the time it takes for some poor cop to figure all that out, he could get shot or stabbed.  Since I'd rather have a live cop than a live criminal, I can't fault someone for erring on the side of caution (within reason of course).

There is nothing wrong with either option presented in game; either shooting her for presenting a real threat; or accepting the risk to oneself to avoid unneccesary violence against someone who could potentially be innocent.  Both are perfectly valid and fit neatly into the definition of Renegade v. Paragon.

[Moiaussi]

Ideally, she should be taken into custody, but then ideally so should many of those you fight. Why is there no protest that your Shepards never ask the enemy to surrender? Even if from behind cover?



As for the specific situaiton:



1) You have probable cause to consider her hostile and a murderer. You know how ruthless the Eclipse leadership is from how the non-combatants are treated lower down in the building. They order their own people shot. That backs up the statement from the Volus regarding murder being a pre-requisite for membership.



2) You have legal authority. Even if you are not still a spectre, you are operating on behalf of a justicar, and with the blessings of local law enforcement. The reason for Samara not being allowed to investigate was not a lack of authority but risk of an international incident. You, on the other hand, are given no warnings against using force (which also backs up the premise that all Eclipse mercs are there illegally).



3) There is no option to restrain her, nor any obvious means to do so.Local law enforcement isn't backing you up, nor is there any option available to call anyone else to come secure her. That means letting her go means giving her the opportunity to find a safer spot to shoot you from.



Later on you learn she killed the Volus but more than that, there are no reprocussions from your killing her. The operation might have been 'off the books' in that it was handled by you rather than local law enforcement, but it was sanctioned.

[Giggles_Manically]

I shoot her as well.



She pulls a shotgun on me at CQ, is wearing the armour of an Eclipse, and comes off as a liar.

If she didnt pull her gun, than maybe I wouldnt kill her, but since she does I blow her away.

[Markinator_123]

Does anybody kill her because it is simply fun? Seriously, the cutscene is awesome. By the way, I play my Shepard as a judge, jury, executioner type of character. I am always ruthless towards my enemies.

Modifié par Markinator_123, 21 septembre 2010 - 09:57 .

[Whatever42]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

As a former soldier I just want to point out that, in reality, letting an enemy combatant just wander off uncontrolled would be ridiculously naive.

I respect that opinion. However, in reality, we couldn't wipe out whole companies of mercenaries. And we wouldn't slaughter a hundred people just to help someone with a personal issue. Without knowing about her recording, letting her go is like go a 10 year old with a slingshot. No real threat.

Hell, if they just agreed to all get out of the way, I wouldn't bother shooting any of them. They aren't relevant to the mission. Heck, the mission is barely relevant to the mission.

Of course, thats my renegade Shepard. Obviously, others have picked the ruthless background. 

[GnusmasTHX]

The Renegade Interrupt isn't murder.



As if someone could get the jump on my bullet-time Shepard. Please.

[0mar]

Wearing enemy colors and has a gun. That's a trip to the morgue. Elnora is just a case of "too stupid to live."

The more problematic moral quandry is whether or not to kill the asari scientist on Virmire in ME1.  I never regretted popping her in the face either, but it made me pause for a bit before executing her.

Modifié par 0mar, 21 septembre 2010 - 11:06 .