528 réponses à ce sujet

[Arijharn]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Talogrungi wrote...

I view her as an enemy combatant and usually end her when she makes what I perceive as an aggressive movement.

Might be considered harsh by some; but better she lies dead on the tile than I do.

Ditto

Same here.

I view someone pulling the trigger on me as an aggressive action, especially after a sudden movement. The fact she attempted to talk to me beforehand doesn't help matters for me.

My gun is up and trained on her, as are my comrades. If she just saw me massacre her sisters then wouldn't it behoove her to offer her hands up as showing her willingness to converse to be more satisfactory then trying to gun me down with surprise?

She miscalculated it at all levels and if I'm to be labelled a 'murderer' because of her stupidity, so be it.

Personally, the renegade's line of 'You choose your side Elnora' wasn't personally my thought process on the matter, but the end result is the same.

[wizardryforever]

Shepard was distracting Vasir in Lair of the Shadow Broker, Elnora has no backup to distract Shepard while unleashing uber biotics on him. Again, all of this is a moot point, since she DOES NOT do any of this, she tries to fend off Shepard because she is afraid. She does not have the will to shoot at Shepard, or she would have done so with the rest of her band. Thus gunning her down is unnecessary.

[wizardryforever]

Arijharn wrote...
I view someone pulling the trigger on me as an aggressive action, especially after a sudden movement. The fact she attempted to talk to me beforehand doesn't help matters for me.

So did you kill Lizbeth Baynam on Feros?  She takes a shot at you.  That must make her a threat, right?  It doesn't matter how much she apologizes, she has to be hostile, just because of that.  Besides, Elnora doesn't shoot you unless you take the Renegade interrupt, she lowers her gun if you don't.

[Moiaussi]

wizardryforever wrote...

This is indeed metagaming when you consider the fact that cutscene powers are exaggerated almost all the time.  But only if said person is an ally, which only backs up the fact that Shepard would not die from a lone Eclipse merc, and definitely not in one shot.

See this Cutscene Power To The Max

So cutscenes never actually happened? Nihilus wasn't actually assissinated in a single shot and had the time and chance to fight back/get a message out? When did this happen?

Other one-shotted foes had the same?

Saying 'cut scenes don't count' is the height of meta gaming. It is saying that only things allowed by the conventional game mechanics count, regardless of what the writers tell you really happened.

[Moiaussi]

wizardryforever wrote...

So did you kill Lizbeth Baynam on Feros?  She takes a shot at you.  That must make her a threat, right?  It doesn't matter how much she apologizes, she has to be hostile, just because of that.  Besides, Elnora doesn't shoot you unless you take the Renegade interrupt, she lowers her gun if you don't.

And you are the one arguing against metagaming?

[AntiChri5]

Shepard was distracting Vasir in Lair of the Shadow Broker, Elnora has no backup to distract Shepard while unleashing uber biotics on him. Again, all of this is a moot point, since she DOES NOT do any of this, she tries to fend off Shepard because she is afraid. She does not have the will to shoot at Shepard, or she would have done so with the rest of her band. Thus gunning her down is unnecessary.

She does not need a distraction to pick up a poll behind you and use it to sweep your legs out from under you. Of course she does not do it but it is always possible she could. There are too many variables to be casual and careless when someone in an enemy uniform points a gun at you. How do you kniw she "does not have the will to shoot"? Because she said so? Besides which it means nothing, she thought she was safe waiting for her band to kill you while hiding, that doesnt mean she wont lash out if she feels threatened (which she does do, taking a shot at you). No competant military commander is going to risk the life of themself and their squad by holding back when an enemy combatant pulls out a gun in the middle of negotiations.



The moment she went for that gun it stopped being a negotiation and became a combat situation.



And so Elnora dies. If she had been reasonable i would have arrested her and given her a trial.

[AntiChri5]

So did you kill Lizbeth Baynam on Feros?  She takes a shot at you.  That must make her a threat, right?  It doesn't matter how much she apologizes, she has to be hostile, just because of that.  Besides, Elnora doesn't shoot you unless you take the Renegade interrupt, she lowers her gun if you don't.

She took a shot at you. Past tense. You never had the opportunity to stop it. By the time you can do anyrhing she has lowered her gun.

[Arijharn]

wizardryforever wrote...

Arijharn wrote...
I view someone pulling the trigger on me as an aggressive action, especially after a sudden movement. The fact she attempted to talk to me beforehand doesn't help matters for me.

So did you kill Lizbeth Baynam on Feros?  She takes a shot at you.  That must make her a threat, right?  It doesn't matter how much she apologizes, she has to be hostile, just because of that.  Besides, Elnora doesn't shoot you unless you take the Renegade interrupt, she lowers her gun if you don't.

You can't kill her as far as I can recall, but I can tell the difference between someone not wearing combat uniform firing on me and someone wearing the same uniform as everyone else that is hostile to me and suddenly pulling a gun onto me.

It's called: "checking your targets" it's potentially the difference between killing a soldier and a non-combatant, so your Lizbeth situation is like comparing chalk and cheese.

[MrnDvlDg161]

Moiaussi wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

This is indeed metagaming when you consider the fact that cutscene powers are exaggerated almost all the time.  But only if said person is an ally, which only backs up the fact that Shepard would not die from a lone Eclipse merc, and definitely not in one shot.

See this Cutscene Power To The Max

So cutscenes never actually happened? Nihilus wasn't actually assissinated in a single shot and had the time and chance to fight back/get a message out? When did this happen?

Other one-shotted foes had the same?

Saying 'cut scenes don't count' is the height of meta gaming. It is saying that only things allowed by the conventional game mechanics count, regardless of what the writers tell you really happened.

THANK YOU!!!!

Ditto.

[Arijharn]

People don't shoot Elnora because they are Commander Shephard and can't possibly be killed by a grunt in a cutscene. Even if they do (Morinth's sex scene?) Shephard still has the power of reload...

[wizardryforever]

Moiaussi wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

This is indeed metagaming when you consider the fact that cutscene powers are exaggerated almost all the time.  But only if said person is an ally, which only backs up the fact that Shepard would not die from a lone Eclipse merc, and definitely not in one shot.

See this Cutscene Power To The Max

So cutscenes never actually happened? Nihilus wasn't actually assissinated in a single shot and had the time and chance to fight back/get a message out? When did this happen?

Other one-shotted foes had the same?

Saying 'cut scenes don't count' is the height of meta gaming. It is saying that only things allowed by the conventional game mechanics count, regardless of what the writers tell you really happened.

No, of course not.  Arguing, "oh, the cutscenes show this" when gameplay shows things very differently is ridiculous.  According to everything shown elsewhere, no one merc could kill Shepard in one shot, especially when Shepard is watching said merc carefully.

And you are the one arguing against metagaming?

That first part of that post was all sarcasm, in case you missed it.  The second point was to illustrate that she doesn't actually take a shot at you until you threaten her with the Renegade "you chose your side Elnora."  That line makes it obvious that she has no chance of mercy now, and decides to go down guns blazing.  That does not mean that she intended to shoot you from the beginning.

Modifié par wizardryforever, 22 septembre 2010 - 01:59 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

Arijharn wrote...

People don't shoot Elnora because they are Commander Shephard and can't possibly be killed by a grunt in a cutscene. Even if they do (Morinth's sex scene?) Shephard still has the power of reload...

Plus even if it wasn't going to hurt him... that is like saying...


"well we have sheilds so a few low grade missles shot at us won't matter much... please hail the attacking ship and let us see if we can talk...yes...I know their powering up their phasers...but are they REALLY going to fire? You all don't know that!"

[MrnDvlDg161]

Well the woman is either dead or alive in anyone's play through, the Elenor that is spoken of in my playthrough is pushing Andraste's Grace.

And as for   " Ooo Ooo Ooo your a Muuuuuurrrder!"  --- relax. Its just a game at some point.

Modifié par MrnDvlDg161, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:04 .

[wizardryforever]

MrnDvlDg161 wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

People don't shoot Elnora because they are Commander Shephard and can't possibly be killed by a grunt in a cutscene. Even if they do (Morinth's sex scene?) Shephard still has the power of reload...

Plus even if it wasn't going to hurt him... that is like saying...


"well we have sheilds so a few low grade missles shot at us won't matter much... please hail the attacking ship and let us see if we can talk...yes...I know their powering up their phasers...but are they REALLY going to fire? You all don't know that!"

The point is that she doesn't shoot at you first, until you show obvious intent to kill her by taking the Renegade interrupt.  Anyone that shoots you obviously intends to kill you, but everyone holding a gun is not a threat by default.

The entire point I'm trying to make is that killing her is not the "pragmatic" or "smart" thing to do by calling her a threat just because she has a gun.  Killing her because you realize that she had to kill to get the uniform makes sense, killing her because she's a "threat" does not, since she clearly isn't.

Modifié par wizardryforever, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:10 .

[MrnDvlDg161]

"The point is that she doesn't shoot at you first, until you show obvious
intent to kill her by taking the Renegade interrupt.  Anyone that
shoots you obviously intends to kill you, but everyone holding a gun is
not a threat by default"

Of course she does because her lies and persuasion have failed and in doing so, she forced to fight rather than escape and fight later.

I must disagree highly, anyone holding a gun is a threat --- even the guards around Aria in After Life...because their soul purpose is to gun individuals down when they get the hand wave. Shepard's number one rule of doing things is  " never without my weapons"  --- the only detour he takes to his is the Samara mission...but 99.9 percent of the time, the man has his weapons on his person...now I wonder why... is it to look cool walking around or perchance that those with guns ( that are a threat)  may use them at some point?

[Arijharn]

wizardryforever wrote...
The point is that she doesn't shoot at you first, until you show obvious intent to kill her by taking the Renegade interrupt.  Anyone that shoots you obviously intends to kill you, but everyone holding a gun is not a threat by default.

I'm sorry, but that's just plain ridiculous, you do realise just how monumentally retarded that sounds right in context of being a Commando who regularly see's action?. Shephard may survive but to me survival is not the yardstick in which to measure, it's the other persons intent. She is in a grossly diminished position, any person would surrender (and just because someone puts up their hands doesn't mean that the others lower their weapons in response) in that position.

[wizardryforever]

Ever heard the saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people?"  It's true, a gun is just a weapon.  Having one does not make someone a threat anymore than not having one makes someone not a threat.  It's all about intent.  Elnora is no more of a threat than the guy in the Dantius towers in Thane's mission, or Lizbeth Baynam.

If this were reality, I would agree to not trust the gun-holder to be reasonable, but it isn't.  In ME, a soldier has a layer of shields that will absorb fire with no permanent loss in effectiveness, meaning you can afford to be lenient for a short time.  There's nothing stopping you from killing her if she shoots you, since you have her outnumbered and outgunned.  But she will not be able to kill you unless you don't respond at all, which is not something I'm advocating.

Modifié par wizardryforever, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:23 .

[Arijharn]

You don't specifically know that Elnora is not a threat, you're just projecting.



Obviously, I play Mass Effect differently to you though, I try to play it as close to me as I can get and damn the consequences (well, not so much damn since I'm curious!) so I can't just trust Elnora after she pulls a gun.

[MrnDvlDg161]

Once again, this goes back to the inconsistency of the universe in which this wonderful fictional world is placed where some people can get offed by one shot and other time's cant --- I can't help the mechanics of the situation... we are discussing as to what someone would do in such a situation, given the limited information and leg room at the time.



If...your going to let someone simply shoot you first... that's just not a survivalist action...its really walking around with a death wish at some point. In fact --- why did she not have shields either? Or is it convenient in this regard ( which is the inconsistency again) to the choices presented to force an event?



I agree...it isn't reality but what is a gamer doing in these choice-made situations... putting themselves in the game and reflecting on things they would do based upon their own reality.



So afterthefact, because we can go back and change things after you find out more information, the Monday morning quarterbacking starts but... if you couldn't...and you had to stick with what you did without a " re-do"...

[wizardryforever]

Arijharn wrote...

You don't specifically know that Elnora is not a threat, you're just projecting.

No more than anyone knows that she is a threat.  Everything I've said has been based off of what we know to be true, and logically basing my conclusion as a result.  It's just that I don't jump to conclusions about people.  I try to see things from other people's perspective if I can, and everything Elnora says and does (if you don't gun her down) seems to indicate that she is scared to death and just wants to leave.  Also of note is that if you do let her go, she leaves her gun behind.

[Moiaussi]

wizardryforever wrote...

No, of course not.  Arguing, "oh, the cutscenes show this" when gameplay shows things very differently is ridiculous.  According to everything shown elsewhere, no one merc could kill Shepard in one shot, especially when Shepard is watching said merc carefully.

So because Shepard is never one shotted any other time, he knows it couldn't happen this time? 

It doesn't matter what is shown everywhere else. Either the cut scenes happened or they didn't. If they did, then Shepard has to consider it a possiblility. If they did not, what in blazes really happened in those scenes, and why does the rest of the plot assume the cut scenes really happened? Tossing out parts of the writing you simply don't like or find inconvenient is metagaming.

That first part of that post was all sarcasm, in case you missed it.  The second point was to illustrate that she doesn't actually take a shot at you until you threaten her with the Renegade "you chose your side Elnora."  That line makes it obvious that she has no chance of mercy now, and decides to go down guns blazing.  That does not mean that she intended to shoot you from the beginning.

First of all, to use knowledge of what happens if you choose differently is metagaming, and if you use that information in making your decision you should also be taking into account the confirmation she did commit murder per later evidence.

As for that specific point, she is weighing her odds too. That does not change the fact that she is an enemy combatant, and that you have no good options to take her into custody. If you catch an enemy unit off guard, do you announce yourself and give them time to arm themselves? If they surrender, but there is no way to secure them or keep them from weapons, what do you do?

[MrnDvlDg161]

"Ever heard the saying "guns don't kill people, people kill people?" It's true, a gun is just a weapon. Having one does not make someone a threat anymore than not having one makes someone not a threat. It's all about intent."



Well then the intent of this woman is simple --- either get at my gun first and fire or attempt to get away by playing the



" oh my --- I am a niave Asari woman. Oh maker help me... what was I doing in this nice eclipse outfit in the middle of a firefight with others dressed like me.... why I thought this was galactic summer camp... what was I thinking...can I go now?"



And then the assumptions can pile up as to what would happen later on.

[MrnDvlDg161]

Betcha no one thought this idiotic Asari could make about 5 pages of debate eh?

[wizardryforever]

Look, I'm not arguing for or against killing Elnora.  There are things to be said for both sides that are valid.  The only thing I was pointing out was that someone is not a threat just because they have a gun.  Intent matters, and judging by Elnora's behavior, she is not a threat, gun or no.

[lolwot]

This wouldn't even be a dilemma if you could attempt to arrest her, and she chooses to fight to the death instead.