528 réponses à ce sujet

[CaptainZaysh]

Optimystic_X wrote...

You misread me; I was wondering if they were at full strength, not if he had turned them off. Wasnt he fighting ahead of you?

Shields recharge in short order.  He can't have been in combat immediately before the cut scene (or he wouldn't have been able to get the drop on Saren).

Optimystic_X wrote...
Wrong about what? That Elnora can't one-shot you? Newsflash: she can't.

Newsflash: you're metagaming.

[PsyrenY]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Shields recharge in short order.  He can't have been in combat immediately before the cut scene (or he wouldn't have been able to get the drop on Saren).

Who's the one with speculation built on assumption now?
Shields recharging quickly is a gameplay mechanic, I thought we weren't using those?

And no, I don't need the Renegade interrupt to know she can't one-shot me with her piddly little Eclipse-issue SMG.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 22 septembre 2010 - 01:46 .

[Whatever42]

Optimystic_X wrote...

When does Shepard "invade and execute dozens of mercenaries that have nothing to do with his mission?"

There are a couple side planets with mercenaries that we invade and kill them all - bloodpack, I believe.

Usually, there is some slim pretext for the slaughter. Them shooting office workers at Dantius towers. If they hadn't done that, though, we probably would have mowed our way through them anyway. We were there with that purpose but thank goodness they morally justified it first.

Or Mordin loyalty mission. Thank goodness we got to see the dead human experiment victim. Otherwise when the Krogan asked us to leave and we really had no evidence that they were holding Maelon against his will, we would be on morally shakey ground killing them all. We would have done it anyway, though. Hey, what's a few dozen murders if it makes our buddy Mordin feel better?

And the Samara mission - clearly they had nothing to do with our mission. We wanted Samara to come with us and she wanted us to get some information and we happily gun down a hundred mercenaries in their own clubhouse until we find it.

In real life, Shepard would be a bloody terror. I do understand that the mercenaries are bad people and there usually is some slim justification for doing what we do so great! But there is no denying Shepard is pretty psycho.

[PsyrenY]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

When does Shepard "invade and execute dozens of mercenaries that have nothing to do with his mission?"

There are a couple side planets with mercenaries that we invade and kill them all - bloodpack, I believe.

Usually, there is some slim pretext for the slaughter. Them shooting office workers at Dantius towers. If they hadn't done that, though, we probably would have mowed our way through them anyway. We were there with that purpose but thank goodness they morally justified it first.

Or Mordin loyalty mission. Thank goodness we got to see the dead human experiment victim. Otherwise when the Krogan asked us to leave and we really had no evidence that they were holding Maelon against his will, we would be on morally shakey ground killing them all. We would have done it anyway, though. Hey, what's a few dozen murders if it makes our buddy Mordin feel better?

And the Samara mission - clearly they had nothing to do with our mission. We wanted Samara to come with us and she wanted us to get some information and we happily gun down a hundred mercenaries in their own clubhouse until we find it.

In real life, Shepard would be a bloody terror. I do understand that the mercenaries are bad people and there usually is some slim justification for doing what we do so great! But there is no denying Shepard is pretty psycho.

Wow, where do I begin.

Side-mission planets: You are never there "to kill mercs." You show up for another reason and they pour out and open fire on you, every single time.

Mordin's loyalty: So you missed the Scout Commander explicitly telling you that the Weyrloc clan had taken him to their base? Or that he explicitly believed they were going to torture and kill him? ("One less alien on Tuchanka" he says matter-of-factly.) And did the Weyrloc mouthpiece ever say anything about Maelon being there voluntarily? You know, between his tirade about burning the Citadel and eating Salarian eggs.

Samara: You're looking for the ship name. If they had walked up and told you "Demeter" instead of opening fire, there would be no reason to shoot anyone, would there?

[Arijharn]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

She must be a threat if she pulls a gun, and I would wager that makes her more of a threat than not since you know, she could just not of pulled it out which would make her less threatening.

You are judging a future act by present-day standards of self-defense.  Kinetic Barriers and Ceramic Plating put more burden of proof on Shepard to prove the "imminent harm" standard, and merely having a gun pointed at him is not enough. The Salarian in Dantius towers does so too, yet I'm willing to bet none of you "Paragons" attacked HIM.

Without that self-defense, you have no authority to kill people on Ilium. Even if you renew your Spectre status, you are not in Council Space.

Err yeah, I think I pretty much said that I was doing this by my own standards but here's my 'burden of proof'
• Elnora was an Eclipse merc in an eclipse base with eclipse mercs near her.
• Elnora revealed herself after I ordered her out
• She came out under surrender
• I was well in my right to maintain my weapons on her.
• She made to pull a weapon on me, I shot her.

Maybe you like to leave things to chance, but I'm not going to run the risk. Why should I? That's just being utterly stupid imho.

I don't know if you can kill the salarian at the Dantius Towers, but I definitely knock him out.

[PsyrenY]

Arijharn wrote...

Err yeah, I think I pretty much said that I was doing this by my own standards but here's my 'burden of proof'
• Elnora was an Eclipse merc in an eclipse base with eclipse mercs near her.
• Elnora revealed herself after I ordered her out
• She came out under surrender
• I was well in my right to maintain my weapons on her.
• She made to pull a weapon on me, I shot her.

Maybe you like to leave things to chance, but I'm not going to run the risk. Why should I? That's just being utterly stupid imho.

I don't know if you can kill the salarian at the Dantius Towers, but I definitely knock him out.

I have no problem with doing things "by your own standards." But they are not Paragon standards.

• Simply being a mercenary is not grounds for execution, even if (lol) other mercenaries are near you.
• Revealing yourself and surrendering are not grounds for execution either.
• Did you kill Wrex when he pulled his gun on you too? Why leave things to chance and take the risk, right?

[Whatever42]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...

When does Shepard "invade and execute dozens of mercenaries that have nothing to do with his mission?"

There are a couple side planets with mercenaries that we invade and kill them all - bloodpack, I believe.

Usually, there is some slim pretext for the slaughter. Them shooting office workers at Dantius towers. If they hadn't done that, though, we probably would have mowed our way through them anyway. We were there with that purpose but thank goodness they morally justified it first.

Or Mordin loyalty mission. Thank goodness we got to see the dead human experiment victim. Otherwise when the Krogan asked us to leave and we really had no evidence that they were holding Maelon against his will, we would be on morally shakey ground killing them all. We would have done it anyway, though. Hey, what's a few dozen murders if it makes our buddy Mordin feel better?

And the Samara mission - clearly they had nothing to do with our mission. We wanted Samara to come with us and she wanted us to get some information and we happily gun down a hundred mercenaries in their own clubhouse until we find it.

In real life, Shepard would be a bloody terror. I do understand that the mercenaries are bad people and there usually is some slim justification for doing what we do so great! But there is no denying Shepard is pretty psycho.

Wow, where do I begin.

Side-mission planets: You are never there "to kill mercs." You show up for another reason and they pour out and open fire on you, every single time.

Mordin's loyalty: So you missed the Scout Commander explicitly telling you that the Weyrloc clan had taken him to their base? Or that he explicitly believed they were going to torture and kill him? ("One less alien on Tuchanka" he says matter-of-factly.) And did the Weyrloc mouthpiece ever say anything about Maelon being there voluntarily? You know, between his tirade about burning the Citadel and eating Salarian eggs.

Samara: You're looking for the ship name. If they had walked up and told you "Demeter" instead of opening fire, there would be no reason to shoot anyone, would there?

So a heavily armed person breaks into your home and you act in self-defense and its your fault?  I wonder what would happen if someone from eclipse just would have walked up and denied knowing anything. Shepard would have merely walked away after breaking down the door?

And the others? You're flying through space, scanning planets and come across this:

“Scans show a crude base established on the planet's surface. Communications match known Blood Pack mercenary protocols. Numerous life signs matching vorcha genealogy detected. The base's material resources match our data on weapons manufacturing components.”

So, they are on an unclaimed planet (not illegal) manufacturing weapons (not illegal). Hrm... what to do? Well, they are bloodpack and vorcha are creepy so lets kill them all and look for credits.

This is why I prefer renegade or at least renegon Shepard. He fits better into the universe. But this is very off-topic. I'm just saying that gunning down Elnora is par for the course, even for a paragon Shepard. I don't do it, though. Unless my renegade knows that you are a threat or are horribly evil, if you don't get in the way of my mission, I just don't care about you. Heck, I don't even care that she killed a volus drug smuggler who sold them bad dope -  my Shepard probably would have done the same.

[CaptainZaysh]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Who's the one with speculation built on assumption now?
Shields recharging quickly is a gameplay mechanic, I thought we weren't using those?

We're using what's in the game.  There's nothing in the game to suggest shields recharge slowly.  So going by what we know, Nihlus's shields were at full whack when a single pistol round killed him.  So were Wrex's when Ashley used one round to put him down.

It's a fact, supported by in-universe evidence, that kinetic barriers don't always stop incoming rounds.  What's the explanation?  Who knows.  Could be proton rounds?  I seem to recall that the weapons have an internal computer that designs the projectile it's about to fire on the fly based on atmospheric and target conditions.  Maybe if conditions are just so, and if you aim at the target for long enough, the computer in the gun can design a shield-buster?

We don't know what conditions need to be met for a gun to be one-shot lethal against a shielded, armoured opponent.  So we can't tell whether Elnora is a threat or not.  So claiming that you know she isn't is just wrong.

Optimystic_X wrote...
And no, I don't need the Renegade interrupt to know she can't one-shot me with her piddly little Eclipse-issue SMG.

Just like Ash can't one-shot a well-equipped krogan with her piddly little sidearm.  Oh, wait, that's wrong.

[Arijharn]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Err yeah, I think I pretty much said that I was doing this by my own standards but here's my 'burden of proof'
• Elnora was an Eclipse merc in an eclipse base with eclipse mercs near her.
• Elnora revealed herself after I ordered her out
• She came out under surrender
• I was well in my right to maintain my weapons on her.
• She made to pull a weapon on me, I shot her.

Maybe you like to leave things to chance, but I'm not going to run the risk. Why should I? That's just being utterly stupid imho.

I don't know if you can kill the salarian at the Dantius Towers, but I definitely knock him out.

I have no problem with doing things "by your own standards." But they are not Paragon standards.

• Simply being a mercenary is not grounds for execution, even if (lol) other mercenaries are near you.
• Revealing yourself and surrendering are not grounds for execution either.
• Did you kill Wrex when he pulled his gun on you too? Why leave things to chance and take the risk, right?

I never said they were paragon standards, people have only ever said if this was a good or bad thing.
But obviously I'll need to explain myself a bit more.

• True, being a mercenary might not necessarily be grounds for summary execution but considering you were in a location in which the Eclipse mercs were all taking great pains to kill me, then you know it stands to reason that they're hostile no? They have attempted to kill me the moment I set foot on Illium by the looks of it.
• Are you daft? I don't execute her for surrendering I execute her for attempting to shoot me after she surrenders!
• Your analogy with Wrex fails and here's why:
a) I know Wrex. I have been with him for my entire adventure in hunting Saren. Compare this with knowing nothing about Elnora. I am in a far better position to work through any problem with Wrex than I am with Elnora.
I am fully prepared to shoot Wrex if I feel like I do not have control of the conversation.
Wrex = known quantity.
Elnora != known quantity.
Having said that, if I fail anyway Ashley is quite happy to put a bullet into the back of his head anyway.

[crimzontearz]

Why are people still arguing about Elnora's intentions when it's pretty much proven she is a cold blooded killer who is just trying to weasel herself out of getting killed?



Call it metagaming but it is the way it is

[PsyrenY]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
We're using what's in the game.  There's nothing in the game to suggest shields recharge slowly.  So going by what we know, Nihlus's shields were at full whack when a single pistol round killed him.

Show me Nihlus' shield indicator. And his health.

CaptainZaysh wrote...
We don't know what conditions need to be met for a gun to be one-shot lethal against a shielded, armoured opponent.  So we can't tell whether Elnora is a threat or not.  So claiming that you know she isn't is just wrong.

"She might be a threat" does not satisfy the imminent harm statute.

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Just like Ash can't one-shot a well-equipped krogan with her piddly little sidearm.  Oh, wait, that's wrong.

For the last time, he wasn't one-shot. Counting is tech.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:40 .

[Moiaussi]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Uhm...you guys do realize that after Liz Baybam fires at you she says "oh my god I'm so sorry I thought you were geth"? In the dark she had no idea someone mowed through the geth defenses and came to the rescue. Elnora is an eclipse merc who earned her uniform killing someone and who was also most probaby ordered to kill you. Her rising a gun to you is totally different from Liz doing the same...why are people even comparing the two? And why are they ignoring that logic dictates that Elnora was faking her moral objection on Eclipse?

Legally, you can only respond in self-defense with approprate force to the threat. Both are armed, one took a shot at you, the other didn't. Both are clearly not interested in a confrontation. Neither are any threat whatsoever to superhero Shepard.

Again, legally, you cannot shoot someone down simply because they are wearing the wrong colors and is clearly a bad person. And how do you know she was faking? Or how do you know the rumors you heard about eclipse are even true? They clearly aren't an illegal organization on Illium. You do not have the legal or moral right to gun down anyone wearing an eclipse uniform. And this isn't self-defense - you are invading their clubhouse and you are not a legal authority.

Many years ago, a SWAT team invaded a drug house and killed a shotgun wielding defender. Turns out it was the wrong house and it was just an ordinary guy woken up in the middle of the night. In this case, Shepard isn't even the police. He's just killing people until someone tells him what he wants to know, which is information not even directly related to his mission.

Shepard is clearly a psychopath and criminal, though, so anything goes.

Legally, Shepard may or may not be a Spectre. Even if not a Spectre, Shep was operating under the authority of a Justicar, with the consent of the local constabularly. After the mission, there is no question regarding Shepard's authority other than a question of admissability of evidence, however Samara's word (even though she wasn't there) is enough to vouch for him. The strong impication is that Asari law is a lot harsher than you consider it to be.

In this case, he is dealing with an armed gang member who doesn't simply drop her weapon and put her hands up. There is good reason to suspect her of murder, there is no way to secure her, and you are still in a hot zone.

Your accusations against Shepard are further out of line in that Shep doesn't kill the workers early on in the mission. To the contrary, he rescues them.

[CaptainZaysh]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Show me Nihlus' shield indicator. And his health.

Not necessary.  Nihlus sneaks up on Saren, meaning he can't have been involved in a shootout in the few seconds preceding the cut scene.  The talk itself also takes several seconds; enough time for his shields to recharge.  Ergo: Saren shoots him through his shields.  The fact your argument falls apart in the face of this should be telling you something about your argument.

Optimystic_X wrote...
"She might be a threat" does not satisfy the imminent harm statute.

The deaths of Nihlus and Wrex prove that she might be able to kill or mortally wound you with one shot.  That's (obviously) imminent harm.

Optimystic_X wrote...
For the last time, he wasn't one-shot. Counting is tech.

Oh, come off it.  She shoots him once, then strolls casually along the beach, chatting, before - in a leisurely fashion - putting him out of his misery.  And this is a krogan warlord we're talking about!  If your definition of imminent harm does not include being wounded so gravely you can't resist someone strolling up and ending you then it's useless to the point of absurdity.

Modifié par CaptainZaysh, 22 septembre 2010 - 02:59 .

[Moiaussi]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Who's the one with speculation built on assumption now?
Shields recharging quickly is a gameplay mechanic, I thought we weren't using those?

And no, I don't need the Renegade interrupt to know she can't one-shot me with her piddly little Eclipse-issue SMG.

There is no precident in the game for sheilds restoring that slowly. That is inventing mechanics, which is a different form of meta-gaming.

You are still ignoring the fact that there is no practical method of restraining her, and the area is still a hot zone. Should you abandon the mission to escort her to the authorities?

[PsyrenY]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Not necessary.  Nihlus sneaks up on Saren, meaning he can't have been involved in a shootout in the few seconds preceding the cut scene.

You don't even know that Saren was unaware of his presence, never mind the reason for it. He slowly turns and says "Nihlus." Not, "Oh my god, Nihlus!!"

CaptainZaysh wrote...
The deaths of Nihlus and Wrex prove that she might be able to kill or mortally wound you with one shot.  That's (obviously) imminent harm.

So Elnora's weapons are on par with Ashley's? Or are they just equally skilled? And Elnora's looks like an SMG to me.

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Oh, come off it.

He was clearly alive when she pumped the last few rounds in. All you know is that he didn't fight back - you have no idea why. Attributing it to crippling pain or critical damage is just one assumption among many.

Moiaussi wrote...

There is no precident in the game for sheilds restoring that slowly. That is inventing mechanics, which is a different form of meta-gaming.

There is  no story precedent for shields restoring at all, never mind the speed at which it happens. Every time a cutscene character's shields are mentioned as going down (e.g. Jenkins, the second fire team leader) they are dying. You're the one applying gameplay mechanics to story, not me.

Moiaussi wrote...
You are still ignoring the fact that there is no practical method of restraining her, and the area is still a hot zone. Should you abandon the mission to escort her to the authorities?

Of course not. But you don't have the authority to murder her either.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 22 septembre 2010 - 03:12 .

[Xilizhra]

crimzontearz wrote...

Why are people still arguing about Elnora's intentions when it's pretty much proven she is a cold blooded killer who is just trying to weasel herself out of getting killed?

Call it metagaming but it is the way it is

It's not proven, otherwise I wouldn't have any grounds to make this thread. Duh.

Oh, come off it.  She shoots him once, then strolls casually along the
beach, chatting, before - in a leisurely fashion - putting him out of
his misery.  And this is a krogan warlord we're talking about!  If your
definition of imminent harm does not include being wounded so gravely
you can't resist someone strolling up and ending you then it's useless
to the point of absurdity.

Wrex wasn't in a combat situation; I doubt that he had his shields up. Also, for the cutscenes in which everyone dies in one shot, I refer to an earlier post that says that all of these happen when the target is really close; I believe that weapons can be slid through kinetic barriers and then fired on the unshielded inner target.
And finally, for all of those saying they'd shoot her instantly for drawing a gun, etc., there is no option to do this. Either Shepard draws on her and stares her down, or draws and says something cliche about choosing the wrong side, doing it so slowly that Elnora has ample time to shoot her, which she in fact does. And guess what? It does nothing. Renegade Shepard isn't acting for the purposes of pragmatic safety, he's being a downright sadist here (not uncommon, alas).

[CaptainZaysh]

Optimystic_X wrote...

You don't even know that Saren was unaware of his presence, never mind the reason for it. He slowly turns and says "Nihlus." Not, "Oh my god, Nihlus!!"

Nihlus clearly has the drop on him.  He must have waited behind that cover for long enough to at least believe he was making a stealthy approach.  He picks his moment to attack, too - is there any reason you can think of that he wouldn't wait for his shields to recharge?  Other than "it kind of ruins my argument if he didn't?"

Optimystic_X wrote...
So Elnora's weapons are on par with Ashley's? Or are they just equally skilled? And Elnora's looks like an SMG to me.

Maybe they are.  A Locust SMG is certainly on par with an ME1 handgun, right?

Optimystic_X wrote...
He was clearly alive when she pumped the last few rounds in. All you know is that he didn't fight back - you have no idea why. Attributing it to crippling pain or critical damage is just one assumption among many.

This gets better and better.  Please explain some of the many reasons Wrex may have decided to lie down and do nothing for a while after the shot bounced harmlessly off his shields.

[CaptainZaysh]

Xilizhra wrote...

Wrex wasn't in a combat situation; I doubt that he had his shields up.

The codex says the shields are automatically generated.

Xilizhra wrote...
Also, for the cutscenes in which everyone dies in one shot, I refer to an earlier post that says that all of these happen when the target is really close; I believe that weapons can be slid through kinetic barriers and then fired on the unshielded inner target.

In the Wrex scene, it takes several seconds for Ash to walk up to his body.

[Xilizhra]

This gets better and better. Please explain some of the many reasons Wrex may have decided to lie down and do nothing for a while after the shot bounced harmlessly off his shields.

I agree that this is unnecessary. It's reasonable enough to assume that, considering that this was a noncombat situation, Wrex turned his shields off.

[PsyrenY]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Nihlus clearly has the drop on him.

Based on what? How slowly Saren turned around? The lack of surprise in his voice?

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Is there any reason you can think of that he wouldn't wait for his shields to recharge?  Other than "it kind of ruins my argument if he didn't?"

Is there any reason for you to compare Saren's hardware to Elnora's? Other than "it kind of ruins my argument if I don't."

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Maybe they are.  A Locust SMG is certainly on par with an ME1 handgun, right?

1) It's a Tempest.
2) Somehow I doubt Elnora has either Ashley or Saren's budget.

CaptainZaysh wrote...
This gets better and better.  Please explain some of the many reasons Wrex may have decided to lie down and do nothing for a while after the shot bounced harmlessly off his shields.

You first: please explain why she needed to keep firing and how he was able to grunt in pain if he was "one-shot."

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 22 septembre 2010 - 03:24 .

[Xilizhra]

The codex says the shields are automatically generated.

What? So when the armor is taken off and hung up in a closet or something, it's still generating shields? This would be a tremendous and unnecessary power drain, unless nothing in Mass Effect actually requires fuel because of eezo magic or something.

In the Wrex scene, it takes several seconds for Ash to walk up to his body.

Considering the krogan regenerative powers that would probably have had Wrex up and pissed quite soon no matter where he was hit, I'm just going to call this a stupid cutscene.

[crimzontearz]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Uhm...you guys do realize that after Liz Baybam fires at you she says "oh my god I'm so sorry I thought you were geth"? In the dark she had no idea someone mowed through the geth defenses and came to the rescue. Elnora is an eclipse merc who earned her uniform killing someone and who was also most probaby ordered to kill you. Her rising a gun to you is totally different from Liz doing the same...why are people even comparing the two? And why are they ignoring that logic dictates that Elnora was faking her moral objection on Eclipse?

Legally, you can only respond in self-defense with approprate force to the threat. Both are armed, one took a shot at you, the other didn't. Both are clearly not interested in a confrontation. Neither are any threat whatsoever to superhero Shepard.

Again, legally, you cannot shoot someone down simply because they are wearing the wrong colors and is clearly a bad person. And how do you know she was faking? Or how do you know the rumors you heard about eclipse are even true? They clearly aren't an illegal organization on Illium. You do not have the legal or moral right to gun down anyone wearing an eclipse uniform. And this isn't self-defense - you are invading their clubhouse and you are not a legal authority.

Many years ago, a SWAT team invaded a drug house and killed a shotgun wielding defender. Turns out it was the wrong house and it was just an ordinary guy woken up in the middle of the night. In this case, Shepard isn't even the police. He's just killing people until someone tells him what he wants to know, which is information not even directly related to his mission.

Shepard is clearly a psychopath and criminal, though, so anything goes.

Woah...where to start.

1: the eclipse merc organization is not illegal on Ilium per se but THAT particuar cell/chapter/whatever is obviously breaking many laws to the point the chief inspector is actively after them and gives you her blessing to go after them. We are not talking about innocent civilians who are mistaken for crooks, we are talking about mercs wearing a unifor wit ranks and symbols screaming "ECLIPSE FOREVER". Justicars, on top of that have jurisdiction on asari controlled worlds and she is telling you togoafter them too.

On top of that it is widely knownthe Eclipse sisters earn thieruniform killing someone.

With that in mind LEGALLY on ilium you can kill in self defense if threatened much more commonly than here (just ask the owner of the eternity lounge).

We KNOW elnora is faking because the whole timeline of her serie of excuses does notadd up. She knew about the ardat yakshi BEFORE she killed pitni for's. Partner, she is now lying through her teeth to hopefully lever on shepard's honorable nature to save her own *** (wasea herself says they smuggled morinth off-world before samara showed up on their doorstep and the murder just happened the night prior)

[Moiaussi]

Optimystic_X wrote...

There is  no story precedent for shields restoring at all, never mind the speed at which it happens. Every time a cutscene character's shields are mentioned as going down (e.g. Jenkins, the second fire team leader) they are dying. You're the one applying gameplay mechanics to story, not me.

Of course not. But you don't have the authority to murder her either.

What game are you playing? Your squadmate's shields recover at the same rate yours do. Enemy shields regenerate at about the same rate yours do, maybe a little slower if you have shield regen upgrades, but not that slow. You need to show contrary evidence to make your case.

My point on authority is that it wasn't considered murder, legally.

[Whatever42]

Moiaussi wrote...

Legally, Shepard may or may not be a Spectre. Even if not a Spectre, Shep was operating under the authority of a Justicar, with the consent of the local constabularly. After the mission, there is no question regarding Shepard's authority other than a question of admissability of evidence, however Samara's word (even though she wasn't there) is enough to vouch for him. The strong impication is that Asari law is a lot harsher than you consider it to be.

In this case, he is dealing with an armed gang member who doesn't simply drop her weapon and put her hands up. There is good reason to suspect her of murder, there is no way to secure her, and you are still in a hot zone.

Your accusations against Shepard are further out of line in that Shep doesn't kill the workers early on in the mission. To the contrary, he rescues them.

I don't buy the Justicar authority. No where have I read that a Justicar can authorize other people to kill. And if the police had the power to authorize Shepard then they themselves could have just nuked all of eclipse long ago.

The Spectre authority probably gives Shepard the legal right on Illium, I admit. Although, I would question whether Shepard is really doing council business with the attack and he's certainly breaking his word to them but he's probably legally covered, I agree - if he is a spectre. And there are no real laws in the Terminus systems so mass murder is fine. However, morally, things aren't so easy. My renegade Shepard has no problem, of course, these people deserve it. However, paragon Shepard is a hypocrite of the most astounding magnitude.

As to the workers - my point was if Dantius had not ordered the execution of her workers - Shepard still would have massacred his way to the top of the building, even though there was nothing illegal going on and he's just doing it so he can talk to an assassin. Shepard believes he/she has the right to kill whomever he/she wants for any reason. So killing Elnora is completely consistant with that.

And again, if every eclipse member is a known murderer and ever initiate is a future murderer then I should just be allowed to gun them all down. And since half the asari I meet have run with mercenaries (probably eclipse) they are all murderers. I should have every right then to gun down Samara, the bartender, Aria - heck the girl by the kiosk planning to join eclipse. Shepard is judge, jury, and executioner. Because he is saving the galaxy, he feels he has the moral right to kill anyone he suspects of anything.

As far as her being a threat in a hot zone - well, its only a hot zone because I decided to break in and kill everyone. She was hiding from you - you probably only go in the room to loot or because you heard her wimpering. She is clearly looking to avoid confrontation. The only real difference here, though, is the very, very thin moral cover Shepard has for his mass killings is a little bit thinner here.

I personally can't really bring myself to gun down someone who isn't stupid enough to attack me, unless they are clearly evil or its totally necessary. As I said, my renegade justifies it as she is unimportant and irrelevant so I just leave her. I do appreciate the argument that other renegades believe its safer just to kill everyone. I do think its totally pyschopathic of Shepard but Shepard is generally totally psychopathic so I think its me acting out of character.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 22 septembre 2010 - 03:42 .

[Xilizhra]

1: the eclipse merc organization is not illegal on Ilium per se but THAT particuar cell/chapter/whatever is obviously breaking many laws to the point the chief inspector is actively after them and gives you her blessing to go after them. We are not talking about innocent civilians who are mistaken for crooks, we are talking about mercs wearing a unifor wit ranks and symbols screaming "ECLIPSE FOREVER". Justicars, on top of that have jurisdiction on asari controlled worlds and she is telling you togoafter them too.

Well, then, it's a good thing that Elnora isn't shooting at you and shouting "ECLIPSE FOREVER" then, isn't it?

We KNOW elnora is faking because the whole timeline of her serie of excuses does notadd up. She knew about the ardat yakshi BEFORE she killed pitni for's. Partner, she is now lying through her teeth to hopefully lever on shepard's honorable nature to save her own *** (wasea herself says they smuggled morinth off-world before samara showed up on their doorstep and the murder just happened the night prior)

Elnora met or at least saw Morinth before she was taken away, but there's nothing to suggest that she knew Morinth was an AY before she killed the other Volus. Like I said, leaking info like that to an untested recruit would be idiotic; I think she had her moment of glory in her initiation that was rather swiftly tainted by the whole AY thing.