528 réponses à ce sujet

[crimzontearz]

Xilizhra, read my posts, elnora is opportunistically lying about her moral objection as proven by the timeline given by Wasea

[Xilizhra]

Read them, saw no proof, dismissed them.

[Whatever42]

crimzontearz wrote...

Woah...where to start.

1: the eclipse merc organization is not illegal on Ilium per se but THAT particuar cell/chapter/whatever is obviously breaking many laws to the point the chief inspector is actively after them and gives you her blessing to go after them. We are not talking about innocent civilians who are mistaken for crooks, we are talking about mercs wearing a unifor wit ranks and symbols screaming "ECLIPSE FOREVER". Justicars, on top of that have jurisdiction on asari controlled worlds and she is telling you togoafter them too.

On top of that it is widely knownthe Eclipse sisters earn thieruniform killing someone.

With that in mind LEGALLY on ilium you can kill in self defense if threatened much more commonly than here (just ask the owner of the eternity lounge).

We KNOW elnora is faking because the whole timeline of her serie of excuses does notadd up. She knew about the ardat yakshi BEFORE she killed pitni for's. Partner, she is now lying through her teeth to hopefully lever on shepard's honorable nature to save her own *** (wasea herself says they smuggled morinth off-world before samara showed up on their doorstep and the murder just happened the night prior)

We know nothing of Elnora besides what she tells us. Sure, we can suspect she's probably playing us but we don't know. My paragade generally lets her go because he doesn't kill in cold blood and doesn't regard her as a threat. He still doesn't regret killing her later, either, but sets the cops on her. My renegon Shep also doesn't regard her as a threat but he only kills people who are in his way and she is simply irrelevent. He's rather amused that she killed the volus.

And if a cop tells you that the people in that house are bad and gives you her blessings, its fine to kick in the door and start shooting? First, the cop doesn't have the authority to give you any legal right. Second, cops are often wrong; that's why we have judges and courts. If its widely known that eclipse mercenaries are all murderers, why isn't it an illegal organization? And since half the asari I've met, from Samara to Aria to the Liara's dad all say they've been mercenaries (proably eclipse) then are most asari murderers? It doesn't add up.

I don't feel sorry for the eclipse. And my renegade Shepard knows perfectly well that they are all better dead. But the moral justification here is very, very thin. Elnora's is just a bit more thin because she clearly does not want to fight you. I really don't know how you can roleplay a real paragon in the game. I just gave up.

Modifié par Whatever666343431431654324, 22 septembre 2010 - 03:53 .

[crimzontearz]

Xilizhra wrote...

1: the eclipse merc organization is not illegal on Ilium per se but THAT particuar cell/chapter/whatever is obviously breaking many laws to the point the chief inspector is actively after them and gives you her blessing to go after them. We are not talking about innocent civilians who are mistaken for crooks, we are talking about mercs wearing a unifor wit ranks and symbols screaming "ECLIPSE FOREVER". Justicars, on top of that have jurisdiction on asari controlled worlds and she is telling you togoafter them too.

Well, then, it's a good thing that Elnora isn't shooting at you and shouting "ECLIPSE FOREVER" then, isn't it?

We KNOW elnora is faking because the whole timeline of her serie of excuses does notadd up. She knew about the ardat yakshi BEFORE she killed pitni for's. Partner, she is now lying through her teeth to hopefully lever on shepard's honorable nature to save her own *** (wasea herself says they smuggled morinth off-world before samara showed up on their doorstep and the murder just happened the night prior)

Elnora met or at least saw Morinth before she was taken away, but there's nothing to suggest that she knew Morinth was an AY before she killed the other Volus. Like I said, leaking info like that to an untested recruit would be idiotic; I think she had her moment of glory in her initiation that was rather swiftly tainted by the whole AY thing.

Uh she does not come charging at you because she just saw you mow down her whole squad and she is a coward.

Also, wasea specifically says the issues started after they smoggled Morinth...the murder just happened hours prior after which Elnora recorded her gboasting diary. You are going to great lenghts to try and find a loophole. For Elnora But wasea herself let's Elnora know what Morinth is as per Elnora's ownword yet evenif it happened after the death of pitnei' partner only HOURS prior she is still with the eclipse

Sorry but no..I do not buy it. I guess we will have to wait till ME3

[Xilizhra]

I really don't know how you can roleplay a real paragon in the game. I just gave up.

It's not all that hard. In Samara's recruitment mission, you're not breaking in anywhere, you're just looking around a port when a bunch of pyschos jump out and attack you. Thane's recruitment mission is rather shakier, I admit, since you're breaking and entering; I may need to give this a bit more thought.

Uh she does not come charging at you because she just saw you mow down her whole squad and she is a coward.

So... running from the three invincible supersoldiers who've wiped out multiple full squads counts as cowardice?

Also, wasea specifically says the issues started after they smoggled
Morinth...the murder just happened hours prior after which Elnora
recorded her gboasting diary. You are going to great lenghts to try and
find a loophole. For Elnora But wasea herself let's Elnora know what
Morinth is as per Elnora's ownword yet evenif it happened after the
death of pitnei' partner only HOURS prior she is still with the eclipse

Reasonable doubt. It takes a lack of it just to sentence someone. Moreover, when the actual sentencing is done in-game, you don't even know about Elnora killing the volus, and whatever Wasea said is even further removed. And finally, I don't think you can just leave Eclipse after joining it, which is why Elnora would feel trapped.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 septembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[crimzontearz]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Woah...where to start.

1: the eclipse merc organization is not illegal on Ilium per se but THAT particuar cell/chapter/whatever is obviously breaking many laws to the point the chief inspector is actively after them and gives you her blessing to go after them. We are not talking about innocent civilians who are mistaken for crooks, we are talking about mercs wearing a unifor wit ranks and symbols screaming "ECLIPSE FOREVER". Justicars, on top of that have jurisdiction on asari controlled worlds and she is telling you togoafter them too.

On top of that it is widely knownthe Eclipse sisters earn thieruniform killing someone.

With that in mind LEGALLY on ilium you can kill in self defense if threatened much more commonly than here (just ask the owner of the eternity lounge).

We KNOW elnora is faking because the whole timeline of her serie of excuses does notadd up. She knew about the ardat yakshi BEFORE she killed pitni for's. Partner, she is now lying through her teeth to hopefully lever on shepard's honorable nature to save her own *** (wasea herself says they smuggled morinth off-world before samara showed up on their doorstep and the murder just happened the night prior)

We know nothing of Elnora besides what she tells us. Sure, we can suspect she's probably playing us but we don't know. My paragade generally lets her go because he doesn't kill in cold blood and doesn't regard her as a threat. He still doesn't regret killing her later, either, but sets the cops on her. My renegon Shep also doesn't regard her as a threat but he only kills people who are in his way and she is simply irrelevent. He's rather amused that she killed the volus.

And if a cop tells you that the people in that house are bad and gives you her blessings, its fine to kick in the door and start shooting? First, the cop doesn't have the authority to give you any legal right. Second, cops are often wrong; that's why we have judges and courts. If its widely known that eclipse mercenaries are all murderers, why isn't it an illegal organization? And since half the asari I've met, from Samara to Aria to the Liara's dad all say they've been mercenaries (proably eclipse) then are most asari murderers? It doesn't add up.

I don't feel sorry for the eclipse. And my renegade Shepard knows perfectly well that they are all better dead. But the moral justification here is very, very thin. Elnora's is just a bit more thin because she clearly does not want to fight you. I really don't know how you can roleplay a real paragon in the game. I just gave up.

You are confusing the eclipse at large with the eclipse sisters on Ilium...the inspectoris actually going directly after them.

With that in mind I never kill Elnora myself but it is patently obvious she is playing us

[crimzontearz]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...

Woah...where to start.

1: the eclipse merc organization is not illegal on Ilium per se but THAT particuar cell/chapter/whatever is obviously breaking many laws to the point the chief inspector is actively after them and gives you her blessing to go after them. We are not talking about innocent civilians who are mistaken for crooks, we are talking about mercs wearing a unifor wit ranks and symbols screaming "ECLIPSE FOREVER". Justicars, on top of that have jurisdiction on asari controlled worlds and she is telling you togoafter them too.

On top of that it is widely knownthe Eclipse sisters earn thieruniform killing someone.

With that in mind LEGALLY on ilium you can kill in self defense if threatened much more commonly than here (just ask the owner of the eternity lounge).

We KNOW elnora is faking because the whole timeline of her serie of excuses does notadd up. She knew about the ardat yakshi BEFORE she killed pitni for's. Partner, she is now lying through her teeth to hopefully lever on shepard's honorable nature to save her own *** (wasea herself says they smuggled morinth off-world before samara showed up on their doorstep and the murder just happened the night prior)

We know nothing of Elnora besides what she tells us. Sure, we can suspect she's probably playing us but we don't know. My paragade generally lets her go because he doesn't kill in cold blood and doesn't regard her as a threat. He still doesn't regret killing her later, either, but sets the cops on her. My renegon Shep also doesn't regard her as a threat but he only kills people who are in his way and she is simply irrelevent. He's rather amused that she killed the volus.

And if a cop tells you that the people in that house are bad and gives you her blessings, its fine to kick in the door and start shooting? First, the cop doesn't have the authority to give you any legal right. Second, cops are often wrong; that's why we have judges and courts. If its widely known that eclipse mercenaries are all murderers, why isn't it an illegal organization? And since half the asari I've met, from Samara to Aria to the Liara's dad all say they've been mercenaries (proably eclipse) then are most asari murderers? It doesn't add up.

I don't feel sorry for the eclipse. And my renegade Shepard knows perfectly well that they are all better dead. But the moral justification here is very, very thin. Elnora's is just a bit more thin because she clearly does not want to fight you. I really don't know how you can roleplay a real paragon in the game. I just gave up.

You are confusing the eclipse at large with the eclipse sisters on Ilium...the inspectoris actually going directly after them.

With that in mind I never kill Elnora myself but it is patently obvious she is playing us

[Maria Caliban]

Optimystic_X wrote...
I have no problem with doing things "by your own standards." But they are not Paragon standards.

Your PC can't act on Paragon standards because Paragon and Renegade are out of game concepts. Your Shepard might have a set of beliefs that closely mirror those concepts, but they are not aware of the mechanic itself.

My Paragon character helped Liana hack secure terminals on Illium, even knowing that doing so was illegal, and got Renegade points for it. She did this because she cares greatly for Liara and is willing to do something illegal if it will help a friend. She doesn't consider herself 'paragon' but compassionate and fair.

In ME 1, I had a Renegade character who got the Renegade mission, and stood there taking the pirate's insults instead of fighting. Why? Because she was ordered to negotiate a deal with a pirate. She doesn't consider herself 'renegade' but practical and goal-oriented. If getting the job done means taking crap from some two-bit thug, then that's what she'll do. If capturing terrorists means letting innocent people die, then that's what she'll do. She would have let the Thorian live and enslave the people of Zhu's Hope in exchange for the information she was looking for, but the game didn't let her.

You seem to be caught in a binary where people are either 1) basing things on their own standards, or 2) basing things on an out of game mechanic.

I think there are a large number of people who work out a character's personality beforehand, not basing on themselves or mechanical considerations, and attempt to play it out in the game as best they can.

Personally, my current character has taken a large number of Renegade interrupts despite being rated as highly Paragon. For example, when doing Miranda's mission, there's a Renegade interrupt where you snap the Eclipse merc's neck and then shoot down a large, metal crate hanging over two others. Why? She had attempted to negotiate, he'd shown that he wasn't going to let her pass, and she knew they were going to attack her.

At no point did she think, 'Does this action fit the Renegade standard?'

Using that interrupt doesn't make Shepard less Paragon. Renegade is not the opposite of Paragon. They are different means to a (heroic) end, and while they're often in conflict, they're not good/evil or order/chaos.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 22 septembre 2010 - 04:18 .

[crimzontearz]

Omg hi Maria!! Long time no see



And I wish Bioware thought about that before they decided how renegade and paragon benchmarks worked.

[Cyberfrog81]

Her fear might be quite real. That whole being shocked about how Eclipse is really like though... yeah, I don't buy it.

My renegades killed her and so did my paragades. It's justifiable, if not very "kind". Admittedly a lot of Shepards are psycho hypocrits. I also happily admit to metagaming, in that I know arresting her is not an option (some of my Shepards would be happy to send a squad member to bring her in), and letting her just run freely is kind of ridiculous - assuming you recall (and believe the story) how she ended up in uniform.

Modifié par Cyberfrog81, 22 septembre 2010 - 04:19 .

[Anacronian Stryx]

This is the problem with the Paragon/Renegade meters (or anything like that in games) - It turns the world up side down, In mass effect many gamers chose a result(paragon/renegade) and see the action instead of choosing an action and seeing the result.. it's kind of like putting the cart before the horse.



Players shouldn't worry about being all paragon or full renegade - all they should worry about is doing what they think is the best solution.

[Maria Caliban]

crimzontearz wrote...

Omg hi Maria!! Long time no see

And I wish Bioware thought about that before they decided how renegade and paragon benchmarks worked.

Greetings and salutations mi amigo! 

I have Liar of the Shadow Broker, but for some reason, I can't finish the mission so I'm going to uninstall/reinstall later today. I have to say that so far, it looks very good.

Reading through some of the writer's posts and blogs, the way Renegade and Paragon were concieved doesn't always filter through the material, though ME 2 is markedly better in this regards. Of course, everyone has their own spin on things.  

[Xilizhra]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

Her fear might be quite real. That whole being shocked about how Eclipse is really like though... yeah, I don't buy it.

My renegades killed her and so did my paragades. It's justifiable, if not very "kind". Admittedly a lot of Shepards are psycho hypocrits. I also happily admit to metagaming, in that I know arresting her is not an option (some of my Shepards would be happy to send a squad member to bring her in), and letting her just run freely is kind of ridiculous - assuming you recall (and believe the story) how she ended up in uniform.

If I had any metagaming desires here, they'd be that I'm curious to see whether or not we get an email from someone; Anaya or Elnora herself about this, if she survives.

[CaptainZaysh]

Optimystic_X wrote...

Based on what? How slowly Saren turned around? The lack of surprise in his voice?

Based on the way Nihlus waits in cover for him to turn around, then sneaks up behind him.  As I said, Nihlus at least believes he has the drop on him, implying some sort of stealthy approach, implying he's been in cover for longer than the few seconds shields take to recharge out of combat.

Even were this not so, the length of the cut scene is long enough for the shields to recharge.  Face it, you would need to be more than "Optimystic" to reasonably conclude that Nihlus's shields were down at the time Saren shot him.  You'd need to be "Delusionyl".

Optimystic_X wrote...
Is there any reason for you to compare Saren's hardware to Elnora's? Other than "it kind of ruins my argument if I don't."

Ooh, snappy comeback.  I take it the answer to my question is "no", then.  I would say yeah, standard issue military hardware in ME2 may well have comparable damage output to high end military hardware in ME1, given that (a) we are comparing an SMG with a pistol and ( all ME2 weapons have been upgraded to work with the new heat sink technology.

Optimystic_X wrote...
1) It's a Tempest.
2) Somehow I doubt Elnora has either Ashley or Saren's budget.

Ashley can one-shot Wrex with any sidearm you issue to her.  Clearly the type of weapon is not the deciding factor here.  It must be something else (time spent aiming, type of ammo, etc) and you have no way of knowing whether Elnora has this X factor, since you don't know what it is.

Optimystic_X wrote...
You first: please explain why she needed to keep firing and how he was able to grunt in pain if he was "one-shot."

Because he'd been incapacitated by one shot.  So!  Let's hear the reasons you think he decided to lie down and do nothing after the shot bounced harmlessly off his shields.

[CaptainZaysh]

Xilizhra wrote...
What? So when the armor is taken off and hung up in a closet or something, it's still generating shields? This would be a tremendous and unnecessary power drain, unless nothing in Mass Effect actually requires fuel because of eezo magic or something.

http://masseffect.wi...r_and_Equipment

I expect you can switch the armour on and off somehow, but yeah: the shields activate automatically when you shoot at them, so there's no need for Wrex to turn them on or off.  They seem to basically stay dormant until they're needed.

Given how Wrex initiated the confrontation it would be pretty stupid of him to do it without taking the time to turn his shields on, anyway.  So we're left with this conclusion: like Nihlus, Wrex was one-shot through his shields.

Xilizhra wrote...
Considering the krogan regenerative powers that would probably have had Wrex up and pissed quite soon no matter where he was hit, I'm just going to call this a stupid cutscene.

That's fine, but you're inventing your own events now so you're no longer talking about the same game the rest of us are playing.

[Whatever42]

crimzontearz wrote...
You are confusing the eclipse at large with the eclipse sisters on Ilium...the inspectoris actually going directly after them.

With that in mind I never kill Elnora myself but it is patently obvious she is playing us

Fair enough. However, I haven't met a mercenary yet who hasn't been a violent criminal so my renegons and paragades have little problem killing all of them. But my paragon shepard does and the inspector cannot authorize you to take violent action. Neither can Samara. And you have to break into that area with a stolen keycard - it is obviously private property. Remember those ME1 Garrus conversations: renegade "do whatever it takes" and paragon "there are rules for a reason and even spectres still have to operate inside them?"  I don't see paragon shepard following many rules.

But to move on from this tired argument...

I wonder how many people kill her because they hate the thought of being played? I mean, her crimes are minor compared to many member of our own party. And we know she's not a threat. Yet people insist that they are perfectly justified in killing her. I think it offends them that she is playing them and thats the real motive behind offing her.

[Xilizhra]

Given how Wrex initiated the confrontation it would be pretty stupid of him to do it without taking the time to turn his shields on, anyway. So we're left with this conclusion: like Nihlus, Wrex was one-shot through his shields.

We could assume it, but we could also say that Wrex wasn't exactly thinking clearly during this confrontation, and drew his gun on impulse without turning his shields on as well. But it doesn't really matter because the entire root of this argument, that it's safer to just shoot Elnora right away, is flawed because you never do that. You either draw your gun and stare her down or draw your gun and say something cliche about Elnora picking the wrong side and losing, giving her ample time to shoot you, which she in fact does. And it doesn't even do anything.

I mean, her crimes are minor compared to many member of our own party.

Many, nothing; they're minor compared to every member of our own party, except maybe Tali, as well as Mordin and Garrus if you squint hard enough.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 22 septembre 2010 - 04:46 .

[inversevideo]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Optimystic_X wrote...
I have no problem with doing things "by your own standards." But they are not Paragon standards.

Your PC can't act on Paragon standards because Paragon and Renegade are out of game concepts. Your Shepard might have a set of beliefs that closely mirror those concepts, but they are not aware of the mechanic itself.

My Paragon character helped Liana hack secure terminals on Illium, even knowing that doing so was illegal, and got Renegade points for it. She did this because she cares greatly for Liara and is willing to do something illegal if it will help a friend. She doesn't consider herself 'paragon' but compassionate and fair.

In ME 1, I had a Renegade character who got the Renegade mission, and stood there taking the pirate's insults instead of fighting. Why? Because she was ordered to negotiate a deal with a pirate. She doesn't consider herself 'renegade' but practical and goal-oriented. If getting the job done means taking crap from some two-bit thug, then that's what she'll do. If capturing terrorists means letting innocent people die, then that's what she'll do. She would have let the Thorian live and enslave the people of Zhu's Hope in exchange for the information she was looking for, but the game didn't let her.

You seem to be caught in a binary where people are either 1) basing things on their own standards, or 2) basing things on an out of game mechanic.

I think there are a large number of people who work out a character's personality beforehand, not basing on themselves or mechanical considerations, and attempt to play it out in the game as best they can.

Personally, my current character has taken a large number of Renegade interrupts despite being rated as highly Paragon. For example, when doing Miranda's mission, there's a Renegade interrupt where you snap the Eclipse merc's neck and then shoot down a large, metal crate hanging over two others. Why? She had attempted to negotiate, he'd shown that he wasn't going to let her pass, and she knew they were going to attack her.

At no point did she think, 'Does this action fit the Renegade standard?'

Using that interrupt doesn't make Shepard less Paragon. Renegade is not the opposite of Paragon. They are different means to a (heroic) end, and while they're often in conflict, they're not good/evil or order/chaos.

Very well said!

[PsyrenY]

Moiaussi wrote...

What game are you playing? Your squadmate's shields recover at the same rate yours do. Enemy shields regenerate at about the same rate yours do, maybe a little slower if you have shield regen upgrades, but not that slow. You need to show contrary evidence to make your case.

You people can't have it both ways. You use gameplay instead of story to defend Nihlus' shields, then deny gameplay when it makes Elnora not be a threat. Which is it? Pick one.

[PsyrenY]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

Based on the way Nihlus waits in cover for him to turn around, then sneaks up behind him.

That says nothing about Saren's own awareness. Nor his hardware.

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Ooh, snappy comeback.  I take it the answer to my question is "no", then.  I would say yeah, standard issue military hardware in ME2 may well have comparable damage output to high end military hardware in ME1, given that (a) we are comparing an SMG with a pistol and ( all ME2 weapons have been upgraded to work with the new heat sink technology.

I don't know if you noticed, but SMGs have LOWER caliber than pistols. That's why you have to, you know, hold down the trigger. It is less of a threat, not more of one - by the time she penetrates Shepard's shields with sustained fire, you and your squad would have cut her down.

Furthermore, shields have been similarly upgraded since the Citadel attack. Please listen to didymos' codex files.

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Ashley can one-shot Wrex with any sidearm you issue to her.  Clearly the type of weapon is not the deciding factor here.  It must be something else (time spent aiming, type of ammo, etc) and you have no way of knowing whether Elnora has this X factor, since you don't know what it is.

No, but I can make a pretty good estimation that the resources of a green Eclipse recruit probably aren't on par with either a rogue Spectre or a seasoned Alliance Marine working for a Spectre.

CaptainZaysh wrote...
Because he'd been incapacitated by one shot.  So!  Let's hear the reasons you think he decided to lie down and do nothing after the shot bounced harmlessly off his shields.

I never said it "bounced harmlessly off." Just that it didn't kill him with one hit. As for reasons, take your pick: shock, heartbreak, took out one of his quad; Ashley's skill and loadout are irrelevant since we're talking about Elnora. They're different people, y'know?

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 22 septembre 2010 - 06:32 .

[Nimander]

I find it really odd that people are trying to apply real life legal principles to Mass Effect. And worse, a city that literally allows almost anything, including drugs that fry the brain -- not heroin, but actually *fry the brain* if you take more than a set amount.



Illium is not the USA nor the EU nor Australia nor Canada nor...



It's its own thing. Also, Paragon is not 'goody two shoes'. Paragon is 'Diplomacy first, if at all possible'. I mean, there's a Paragon interrupt where you threaten to break someone's -legs- for gosh sakes.



Also, in a war situation, the legal 'imminent threat' doctrine does not apply, it never, ever has. This is one reason the US had such issues in Iraq. They were taking soldiers, trained to fight in a war and trying to use them as police. This ... has VERY different training. Stop trying to equate them.

[Xilizhra]

It's its own thing. Also, Paragon is not 'goody two shoes'. Paragon is 'Diplomacy first, if at all possible'. I mean, there's a Paragon interrupt where you threaten to break someone's -legs- for gosh sakes.

Paragon is just drawing the gun without making a death threat. Also, street fights with Eclipse don't count as war.

[Nimander]

In your opinion, they don't count as war. They -sure- don't count as police actions, though. If our police were in that sort of situation, they'd -die-.



It's kind of an odd area. It's not a police action, but it's not an official war. It has more in line with a war than a police action, though. By far.

[Xilizhra]

I'd say it's about the same as a SWAT raid that goes really badly.

[Nimander]

Not even. Outside Hollywood, it's incredibly rare for SWAT raids to deal with folks with freaking rocket launchers and stuff. Most SWAT raids deal with normal armed folks, usually not highly trained. Eclipse are basically a mercenary army. Not even /close/ to SWAT raids.