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[Xilizhra]

Hence the "really badly" and not "really ordinarily."



But no matter. Do you support letting her live, or not?

[Tyrannosaurus Rex]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hence the "really badly" and not "really ordinarily."

But no matter. Do you support letting her live, or not?

I excecute her on my canon playthrough.

She's a part of the opposing force.
She's a murderer.
She's obviously lying.
She pulls a gun on me.

All those factors result in her getting gunned down.

"EDIT" Althrough, if I had the option to just knock her out and leave her for the police to take in. I would have chosen that.

Modifié par Lizardviking, 22 septembre 2010 - 08:45 .

[Eurhetemec]

I'm with LizardViking.



Xilizhra's "But she's not so bad!" apologia only convinces me further that I was right to shoot her. Also, I love the guy but "Genophage" Mordin less bad than Grunt (an innocent, when you find him), Legion (did he ever do anything immoral?), Jacob or others? Uh, no.



She's an enemy, who I'd be putting my back to, who could go get help and ensure I got pincer'd.

She's murdered in cold blood - alone this wouldn't matter much - but with the other factors, it proves that she's a threat.

She's a liar. Very obviously and crudely.



This isn't a person whose word you can trust. This isn't a person it's safe to leave in your rear. She decided to become a murderer as her job (not all mercs are, but these Eclipse all are), she put on the uniform, she doesn't come out with her hands up, she comes up pointing a gun. Save

[Moiaussi]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

I don't buy the Justicar authority. No where have I read that a Justicar can authorize other people to kill. And if the police had the power to authorize Shepard then they themselves could have just nuked all of eclipse long ago.

It doesn't really matter what you buy. You are neither Asari, nor on Illium, nor a Justicar, nor any law expert on any of the above. Shepard is both with Samara, an experienced, respected Justicar as well as with an Illium law enforcement agent. Neither expresses any concerns with the plan nor gives any hint that it is in any way unusual.

Note that there is a HUGE difference between deputizing an internationally known field agent to conduct a small unit raid (including lethal force) and 'nuking' a building or causing other property damage.

The Spectre authority probably gives Shepard the legal right on Illium, I admit. Although, I would question whether Shepard is really doing council business with the attack and he's certainly breaking his word to them but he's probably legally covered, I agree - if he is a spectre. And there are no real laws in the Terminus systems so mass murder is fine. However, morally, things aren't so easy. My renegade Shepard has no problem, of course, these people deserve it. However, paragon Shepard is a hypocrite of the most astounding magnitude.

There obviously are laws on Illium, hence formal law enforcement agents. Do you actually play ME? It sounds like you are writing your own script to entertain yourself. Spectres don't have to be doing council business directly. They have considerably leaway. Note though that I set the spectre issue aside, since the detective and Justicar both react the same if that is there or not.

As to the workers - my point was if Dantius had not ordered the execution of her workers - Shepard still would have massacred his way to the top of the building, even though there was nothing illegal going on and he's just doing it so he can talk to an assassin. Shepard believes he/she has the right to kill whomever he/she wants for any reason. So killing Elnora is completely consistant with that.

Technically, pure paragons probably shouldn't be doing the Thane mission at all. Note though that every merc on the way up has orders to shoot first.

And again, if every eclipse member is a known murderer and ever initiate is a future murderer then I should just be allowed to gun them all down. And since half the asari I meet have run with mercenaries (probably eclipse) they are all murderers. I should have every right then to gun down Samara, the bartender, Aria - heck the girl by the kiosk planning to join eclipse. Shepard is judge, jury, and executioner. Because he is saving the galaxy, he feels he has the moral right to kill anyone he suspects of anything.

Interesting how you extend that to initiates, even though they are not yet murderers, or at least there is no reason to believe they are. Nice straw man. Samara, like you, is licenced. She is an accepted law enforcement officer within Asari society. Aria is the de facto mayor of Omega. That is a dog-eat-dog society though. You could gun her down, but to what end? Run Omega yourself? That would make it hard to chase Reavers. Set someone else up in her place? Got anyone handy who could do a better job? Didn't think so. Girl by the kiosk? She hasn't joined yet, so you would be outside Illium law.

As far as her being a threat in a hot zone - well, its only a hot zone because I decided to break in and kill everyone. She was hiding from you - you probably only go in the room to loot or because you heard her wimpering. She is clearly looking to avoid confrontation. The only real difference here, though, is the very, very thin moral cover Shepard has for his mass killings is a little bit thinner here.

You are forgetting you went in there because you are investigating a murder, with legal authority to do so. The mercs are resisting rather than cooperating (probably because they all had to commit murder to join and thus don't like the potential results of any such investigation). By the way, the murder it turns out that Elnora did commit was the very murder you were investigating. That is after the fact information, but it is interesting to note nonetheless. In letting her go, it turns out you took down everyone except the murderer you were actually there after.

I personally can't really bring myself to gun down someone who isn't stupid enough to attack me, unless they are clearly evil or its totally necessary. As I said, my renegade justifies it as she is unimportant and irrelevant so I just leave her. I do appreciate the argument that other renegades believe its safer just to kill everyone. I do think its totally pyschopathic of Shepard but Shepard is generally totally psychopathic so I think its me acting out of character.

Which is why you are a good civilian, but would make a lousy soldier. I think you are quick to diagnose too....

[PsyrenY]

I'm fine with various Shepards deciding to do her in. Hell, I've had two Shepards that pulled the trigger on her.

What I find puzzling are the ones that claim that the choice to kill her is a Paragon one. It's fine to let spots of Renegade into your character, just own it already.

Modifié par Optimystic_X, 22 septembre 2010 - 09:27 .

[Xilizhra]

She's a liar. Very obviously and crudely.

Not by my reckoning. She never said she was innocent or that she didn't kill anyone; she only says she didn't shoot you and that she's new, and neither one of these can be proved a lie.

[Aggie Punbot]

I would imagine that during Shepard's travels as a soldier, s/he has to make split-second decisions as to how to deal with armed assailants. In the case of the salarian, it was obvious that the guy was scared and just trying to defend himself from someone he thought was going to kill him and his brother (which Shepard would know that s/he wasn't), thus merely punching him out and disarming him was an acceptable reaction.

Elnora, on the other hand, was wearing an Eclipse uniform, was hanging out in an Eclipse base, and was perfectly willing to draw a gun on him/her after Shepard has lowered his/her weapon. In that situation, almost anyone is justified in shooting them down.

I would like people to really think about the bolded part: Elnora draws her gun on Shepard after Shepard lowers their gun. After. If she was really innocent (or had no intention of harming Shepard), why would she have done that?

Killing Elnora is justifiable for every Shepard, paragon or not.

However, I think Wrex (paraphrased) says it best:
'Anyone who attacks us is either stupid or on the Eclipse's payroll. Killing the latter is business. Killing the former is a favor to the universe.'

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 22 septembre 2010 - 09:40 .

[Xilizhra]

Because she's terrified and not thinking clearly, maybe? People aren't at their most rational when they think that they're about to die, you know.

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because she's terrified and not thinking clearly, maybe? People aren't at their most rational when they think that they're about to die, you know.

Bet many of the mercs who do fire at you feel exactly the same way. Given you can generally take cover and stay at a stand off as long as you need to, shouldn't you be doing so while trying to talk them down? However long that takes? I mean, they are all just scared, right?

[Aggie Punbot]

All Shepards have the option of sparing her, this is true. But all Shepards also have the option of killing her. If you choose to spare her, good for you. If you don't, it's also an understandable action.

I do stand by my Shepard's decision to kill a mercenary that draws a weapon on them at near point blank range.

Modifié par TS2Aggie, 22 septembre 2010 - 09:43 .

[Xilizhra]

Bet many of the mercs who do fire at you feel exactly the same way. Given you can generally take cover and stay at a stand off as long as you need to, shouldn't you be doing so while trying to talk them down? However long that takes? I mean, they are all just scared, right?

To my knowledge, none of them back off again when you aim your own gun at them.

I do stand by my Shepard's decision to kill a mercenary that draws a weapon on me at near point blank range

After killing ten Eclipse members at a time, my Shepard feels she has little to fear from one.

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...

To my knowledge, none of them back off again when you aim your own gun at them.

After killing ten Eclipse members at a time, my Shepard feels she has little to fear from one.

None of them are caught in the same situation as Elnora. Regardless, do you always give them the chance to shoot first? And if you let Elnora go, why would you expect her to not to re-engage as soon as she could get something she'd consider better odds?

[Xilizhra]

None of them are caught in the same situation as Elnora. Regardless, do you always give them the chance to shoot first? And if you let Elnora go, why would you expect her to not to re-engage as soon as she could get something she'd consider better odds?

Generally speaking, they shoot first, yes. And if she tries to reengage, well, I'll kill her then.

[Asheer_Khan]

Too bad there is no way to introduce Shepard to that young Asari so eager to join Eclipse using words like "Hello, i am Commander Shepard and eliminate Eclipse Sisters are my favorite job on Illium" just to see her face...

-You really enjoyed that aren't you?  - to quoting Garrus;).

And when i let her go what chances she would have on Illum streets now when Vasea is dead and Eclipse Sisters in chaos?

She is now wanted by the law fugitive so all what remain for her is to smuggling herself to Omega and hoping that Aria or Helena Blake (IF she is alive) will take her under thier wings.

Modifié par Asheer_Khan, 22 septembre 2010 - 10:26 .

[crimzontearz]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

crimzontearz wrote...
You are confusing the eclipse at large with the eclipse sisters on Ilium...the inspectoris actually going directly after them.

With that in mind I never kill Elnora myself but it is patently obvious she is playing us

Fair enough. However, I haven't met a mercenary yet who hasn't been a violent criminal so my renegons and paragades have little problem killing all of them. But my paragon shepard does and the inspector cannot authorize you to take violent action. Neither can Samara. And you have to break into that area with a stolen keycard - it is obviously private property. Remember those ME1 Garrus conversations: renegade "do whatever it takes" and paragon "there are rules for a reason and even spectres still have to operate inside them?"  I don't see paragon shepard following many rules.

But to move on from this tired argument...

I wonder how many people kill her because they hate the thought of being played? I mean, her crimes are minor compared to many member of our own party. And we know she's not a threat. Yet people insist that they are perfectly justified in killing her. I think it offends them that she is playing them and thats the real motive behind offing her.

then you have not paid attention to some parts of the game

the eclipse sargent on Ilium during Miranda's loyalty goes out of his way to explain to you that (according to his info....as wrong as they may be) you are NOT rescuing someone but kidnapping them again and he gives you a non-violent way out  before attacking. Yes he is a merc, yes he will kill to fulfill what he has been contracted for but he is far from just a cold blooded psychopatic killer from what we see nor he seems to take pleasure from his kills purely because they are kills.


the ENTIRE staff on Purgatory is blue suns. their WHOLE job is bheing prison guards, yes some of them may be callous and violent because otherwise they would not survive in the job they are in but they do not gain their status by murdering someone. Hell even GARRUS feels sorry for them when they get rushed.

in many of the planets' descriptions you stumble into you can see that when all else fails  in the terminus and an entire race needs protection from pirates they recruit entire battalions of blue suns (for instance) turning them basically into law enforcement/planetary protection from pirates. Sure they may be mercs and sure we do not know how they handle it all but from what we can see they are not ALL bad


now Elnora on the other hand...... 

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Generally speaking, they shoot first, yes. And if she tries to reengage, well, I'll kill her then.

Even if she doesn't re-engage, do you remember why you are there in the first place?

[Xilizhra]

Moiaussi wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Generally speaking, they shoot first, yes. And if she tries to reengage, well, I'll kill her then.

Even if she doesn't re-engage, do you remember why you are there in the first place?

Finding a ship name. How does shooting Elnora help me? At least if I spare her, I can ask her about it.

[Moiaussi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Finding a ship name. How does shooting Elnora help me? At least if I spare her, I can ask her about it.

That is what you are doing for the Justicar. For the police you are investigating a murder.

[Xilizhra]

And "investigation" means "shooting people" now?

[crimzontearz]

Xilizhra wrote...

And "investigation" means "shooting people" now?

uhm.....fine, investigate the murder without fighting at all if you can......let me know how that works for you

[AntiChri5]

It does if they shoot at you.



I wonder if we would be having this "debate" if she were a Turian.......

[Xilizhra]

uhm.....fine, investigate the murder without fighting at all if you can......let me know how that works for you

That's how the police like to do that sort of thing, yes.

It does if they shoot at you.

Which she only does if you promise to kill her.

I wonder if we would be having this "debate" if she were a Turian.......

Obviously. I don't protect people based on their ****ability, otherwise I'd let everyone except Liara and maybe Samara die.

[Theclonerman]

She draws her gun on you. How can you not shoot her?

The only reason I spare her is because it might open up a future quest.

[crimzontearz]

Xilizhra wrote...

uhm.....fine, investigate the murder without fighting at all if you can......let me know how that works for you

That's how the police like to do that sort of thing, yes.

.

no I meant in Mass Effect 2..go on try it

also, Bioware had to convey a message, give us a feeling for the character. Don't you think if they wanted us to be sympathetic with her they would have made her diary (which you can NOT find before finding Elnora) different...like "oh Goddess I had no choice. I'm in too deep, I know what the eclipse is really doing but I had to go through the initiation or they would have killed me"

no, we get a "AH I have killed that ridiculous volus....I am soooooooo awesome" it is obvious how Bioware wanted to picture her

[Xilizhra]

also, Bioware had to convey a message, give us a feeling for the character. Don't you think if they wanted us to be sympathetic with her they would have made her diary (which you can NOT find before finding Elnora) different...like "oh Goddess I had no choice. I'm in too deep, I know what the eclipse is really doing but I had to go through the initiation or they would have killed me"



no, we get a "AH I have killed that ridiculous volus....I am soooooooo awesome" it is obvious how Bioware wanted to picture her

Metagaming and irrelevant.