97 réponses à ce sujet

[PsyrenY]

You can still use Legion in the DLC and N7 missions. It may not be as intense but there's still shooting to be done.



You can also leave some of the loyalty missions until after the SM (e.g. Miranda) and take Legion along then if you want. It's harder, but not impossible, to get the crew out alive with a few disloyals.

[AdamNW]

For the record, join time has no effect on the character's rank, but Suicide Mission stuff does. Anyway, looking through people's arguments:

@Lazuli: Yeah, putting Morinth that low and Samara that much higher makes absolutely no sense, no matter how you spin it.  And Garrus only has Area Overload for years if you don't recruit Tali until the end of the game, which inherently doesn't make sense.

@HakkyounoTenshi: Your argument is invalid because you honestly put Miranda in C tier.

@Miss Yuna: See what I told Lazuli about Morinth. Also, Garrus does just about everything Thane does, on top of having Assault Rifles.

Modifié par AdamNW, 23 septembre 2010 - 04:01 .

[Zaxares]

Bah, I don't care about tiers! Squadmates are only there to soak up bullet fire while I kill all the enemies myself anyway. XD

[sinosleep]

AdamNW



If you recruit Samara primarily for her loyalty talent then it makes all the sense in the world to rank her way ahead of Morinth.

[lazuli]

AdamNW wrote...
@Lazuli: Yeah, putting Morinth that low and Samara that much higher makes absolutely no sense, no matter how you spin it.  And Garrus only has Area Overload for years if you don't recruit Tali until the end of the game, which inherently doesn't make sense.

Reave is such a powerful ability that it alone pushes Samara to a much higher status than she would be without it.  And Morinth already has two powers that don't perform optimally against defended enemies.  Dominate is just another one with the added penalty of being a liability in combat.  But if we're just talking about Pull-bots, Jack and Jacob can at least provide an ammo power.

I provided my reasoning for recruiting Tali late, but I'll expand on it.  When considering which order to do missions in, I take upgrades into account.  For example, it makes sense for a Vanguard to recruit Jack early in order to get quick access to shotgun damage and damage protection upgrades.  Later on, it can be a good idea to do Grunt's loyalty mission before the Collector Ship, securing another two shotgun damage upgrades (one from the loyalty mission itself, one with a discount at the store after completing the mission).  You can change the desired upgrades and their associated missions depending on the character class in question.  But there isn't a lot of incentive upgrade-wise for recruiting Tali early.  I don't ever consider a heavy pistol to be my main gun, no matter what class I'm playing.  And if I'm desperate for assault rifle damage, I typically go renegade on Zaeed's mission.   Tali's loyalty mission can yield a valuable tech damage increase, but there are tons of those available much earlier on.

[sinosleep]

I make my way through the game in much the same way you do Lazuli. Upgrades alone determine what order I do my missions in 99% of the time.

[Malanek]

1: Kasumi, Miranda, Samara w Reave

2: Jacob, Mordin, Thane, Liara

3: Zaeed, Grunt, Samara w/o Reave, Tali, Jack, Legion, Garrus, Morinth



I can't work out why people think Kasumi is weak. Using her feels like cheating.

[lazuli]

Malanek999 wrote...
I can't work out why people think Kasumi is weak. Using her feels like cheating.

When I bring Kasumi, I feel like I am fighting her as well as fighting my enemies.  I have to wrestle with her Shadow Strike which stubbornly refuses to function even when it clearly should.  It's fantastic when it works, but it is, as far as I can tell, the most bugged power in the game.

[Malanek]

lazuli wrote...

Malanek999 wrote...
I can't work out why people think Kasumi is weak. Using her feels like cheating.

When I bring Kasumi, I feel like I am fighting her as well as fighting my enemies.  I have to wrestle with her Shadow Strike which stubbornly refuses to function even when it clearly should.  It's fantastic when it works, but it is, as far as I can tell, the most bugged power in the game.

When she says "I cant do that now"? It only happens to me maybe once out of every five times (at most) and when it does it the cooldown is reset pretty soon so you can use it again. I think it happens when the space she is to move to becomes unreachable because the target is moving. The beauty about her IMO is that she deals extremely high damage against anything from very early in the game (when the game is the hardest) by just maxing shadow strike. The cooldown is pretty quick as well. Using shadowstrike also keeps her alive much more than other team mates because she is invulnerable half the time. Ultimately she probably does fade away a little by the end of the game but early on more than makes up for it.

[Kyouya]

S: Miranda

A: Thane, Liara, Samara, Morinth

B: Mordin, Garrus, Jacob

C: Grunt, Jack, Kasumi

D: Legion, Tali



Plus, squads using the mattock are pretty good dealing damage.

[tonnactus]

Optimystic_X wrote...


That's crazy. You can max Incendiary on Jacob/Grunt much sooner, and a lower cooldown on charge both increases your damage output and your survivability at the same time. Not to mention the bonuses to your morality scores for passing checks early in the game.

Inferno is better then squad incendary because it allows the vanguard to charge into groups of organics early on and also increases surviability far better then the 15 percent lower cooldown.Because of the aoe of inferno that panicks also non targeted enemies nearby.

[PsyrenY]

tonnactus wrote...
Inferno is better then squad incendary because it allows the vanguard to charge into groups of organics early on and also increases surviability far better then the 15 percent lower cooldown.Because of the aoe of inferno that panicks also non targeted enemies nearby.

Charging more often increases survivability more, because doing so recharges your shields instantly, dodges missiles, stops gunfire, slows time AND can be used to strategically position you.

I'm not saying you shouldn't get Inferno eventually. But since you can have Incendiary, Heavy Charge AND Champion with only 20 points spent simply by bringing Jacob/Grunt along with you, that's the better option early game than simply Heavy Charge and inferno. The damage difference between Inferno on just you and Incendiary on everyone is a wash anyway.

[sinosleep]

tonnactus wrote...

Inferno is better then squad incendary because it allows the vanguard to charge into groups of organics early on and also increases surviability far better then the 15 percent lower cooldown.Because of the aoe of inferno that panicks also non targeted enemies nearby.

Inferno is better than squad incendiary, and pretty much every vanguard player recommends getting it, but it's definitely not better than CD reduction on charge. Particularly when we know that research upgrades don't work on charge and so the vast majority of any CD reduction comes from your passive. Refreshing charge is what allows vanguards to do what vanguards do. Although like I said, it's not exclusive to the vanguard, practically every single guiide you will see on these forums starts off with max class skill max passive, regardless of class.

Modifié par sinosleep, 23 septembre 2010 - 01:12 .

[XCPTNL]

I just take Zaeed and Grunt all the time for every class I play, because I don't actually care about the squadmates. The game is pretty easy but I'm on xbox right now and can't edit the squaddies out of the game unfortunately. So I take those 2 badasses because they have such nice oneliners at times and make you feel comfortable in levels like the collector ship.



On my first playthroughs when I cared about squadmates and used almost all of them I noticed that Miranda and Garrus seem to be more stupid than other squadmates and tend to get in close or in the open far more often than other squadmates regardless of the weapon loadout. I really hate Miranda. Her ridiculous costume, her stupid comments, her ****ing about everything all the time. She might be useful but she's just too annoying. And again... game is so easy (probably because I've played it so many times), you don't really need anybody. It's fun with squad cryo if you play a vanguard though.

[lazuli]

Malanek999 wrote...
When she says "I cant do that now"? It only happens to me maybe once out of every five times (at most) and when it does it the cooldown is reset pretty soon so you can use it again. I think it happens when the space she is to move to becomes unreachable because the target is moving. The beauty about her IMO is that she deals extremely high damage against anything from very early in the game (when the game is the hardest) by just maxing shadow strike. The cooldown is pretty quick as well. Using shadowstrike also keeps her alive much more than other team mates because she is invulnerable half the time. Ultimately she probably does fade away a little by the end of the game but early on more than makes up for it.

I completely agree that Shadow Strike can be used to save Kasumi.  It's a very useful feature that ends up working like the Engineer's Combat Drone in the way it can distract enemies.  But I've run into way too many bugs with Shadow Strike.

• She refuses to initiate Shadow Strike.
• She refuses to initiate Shadow Strike and freezes, her cooldown meter stuck until she dies.
• She teleports to the enemy but then freezes there and dies under fire.
• She teleports to the enemy and starts shooting and dies under fire.
• She teleports to the enemy, attacks, and returns with the enemy (ragdoll).

Although this really isn't the place to discuss it, I wish they had handled Shadow Strike differently.  It should have just cloaked her and applied some visual effect to the target in the general shape of an electrically glowing Kasumi.  No actual movement of the squadmate should have been involved.

[clennon8]

Tier 1: Miranda

Tier 2: Kasumi, Grunt



After that, it gets too hard for me to grade. Depends on the mission, how you've leveled the character up, blah blah blah. I will say that I think Jacob gets ranked too low by most people, and Garrus gets ranked too high. Jacob is very useful with Pull and Squad Incendiary Ammo. Garrus frustrates me on Insanity level, because he suicides himself 2 seconds into every fight if you don't micromanage him.

[PsyrenY]

On my caster sentinel (my main Shepard), my favorite squadmates are Grunt and Mordin.

Roleplay-wise, Mordin delivers all the "smart" lines (e.g. "Husk technology came from Sovereign.") while Grunt delivers all the "badass" ones. ("Geth are dangerous, but it's just one. You want him?") Their distinct ways of speaking also result in a lot of laughs.

Gameplay wise, Grunt is a beast that can hold the front line even better than I can and give us squad incendiary for punching through armor. Mordin can also eat through armor, and I can handle barriers and shields while I sit back and snipe. Mordin and I can both freeze unprotected targets, and Grunt and I can both knock them down.

[AdamNW]

lazuli wrote...

AdamNW wrote...
@Lazuli: Yeah, putting Morinth that low and Samara that much higher makes absolutely no sense, no matter how you spin it.  And Garrus only has Area Overload for years if you don't recruit Tali until the end of the game, which inherently doesn't make sense.

Reave is such a powerful ability that it alone pushes Samara to a much higher status than she would be without it.  And Morinth already has two powers that don't perform optimally against defended enemies.  Dominate is just another one with the added penalty of being a liability in combat.  But if we're just talking about Pull-bots, Jack and Jacob can at least provide an ammo power.

Except Dominate isn't a liability when enemies will attack the target before the target even knows it was dominated.

Either way, Samara suffers from the exact same problems that you are claiming Morinth has (problems I don't believe exist but that's irrelevant to my point), with the exception of that one skill.  The one skill does not warrant such a massive gap in usability.

[lazuli]

AdamNW wrote...
Either way, Samara suffers from the exact same problems that you are claiming Morinth has (problems I don't believe exist but that's irrelevant to my point), with the exception of that one skill.  The one skill does not warrant such a massive gap in usability.

Except it does.  That video might not be the best way to illustrate my point, but it gets the message across.

As for Dominate, it shields an opponent and makes them unpredictable.  Yeah, they'll attack their friends and be attacked by their friends.  But why mess around with that when you can just kill them?  I don't doubt that it's useful in certain situations for certain classes.  It's just not a good fit for me.

Modifié par lazuli, 24 septembre 2010 - 04:02 .

[Thresher Maw]

S: Zaeed, Thane
A: Kasumi
B: Samara, Miranda, Mordin
C: Jacob, Jack
D: Garrus, Grunt, Legion, Tali

S rank:
The list assumes that one has access to the incisor sniper rifle. Between +50% weapon damage and the glitched incisor damage, Zaeed and Thane just tear through everything. They are universally useful regardless of difficulty and regardless of class. You may argue that Shepard and abilities do so much of the killing that squadmate weapon damage is irrelevant, and it often is, but not when you have Zaeed and Thane with incisors. You will notice the damage that they're doing. Honestly, their incisors are essentially defense strippers all on their own. In addition, Inferno Grenade, while not as potent as incinerate, has a shorter cooldown. So Zaeed is a viable armor stripper. He also has squad disrupter ammo, making him a viable choice for Geth missions (though you'd probably rather two overloaders). Thane has warp, which allows him to end warp combos and is a useful damaging ability even outside of that.

This isn't to say that using Zaeed and Thane together is the ultimate squad. I personally find that a puller+Thane results in more damage thanks to warp detonations. But Zaeed and Thane are both very deadly and are both universally useful (with incisors), which is why I've placed them at the top.

A rank:
I'm surprised by the amount of Kasumi hate throughout this thread. Honestly, I very rarely experience shadow strike glitches. Perhaps I'm lucky, but Kasumi almost always performs excellently for me. Shadow strike is the best single target defense stripper in the game, doing massive damage to all defense types, having a shorter cooldown than most defense stripping powers do and knocking the target down if the strike removes all defenses. Between shadow strike and area overload, Kasumi is probably the best defense stripper in the game. Flashbang grenade is also rather useful, rendering groups of foes "offenseless" for a short time, granting you greater attacking freedom. As with incisor using Zaeed and Thane, Kasumi is universally useful regardless of one's class, and this universal usefulness grants her a high rank. 

B rank: 
B rank belongs to those who I feel offer the best "ability combo" utility. Samara has pull, allowing her to start warp combos. She has access to area reave, which is highly useful in beginning ability chains. Between pull, reave, and her biotic cooldown reduction ability, Samara is arguably the best puller. 

Miranda has access to area overload which is great for softening up targets and warp which allows her to end warp combos. It may seem odd to place Miranda in C rank given her passives, but honestly I never notice the difference that her passives make. I've not done the math but the damage provided by her passive is likely outclassed by the obscene damage Zaeed and Thane do with incisors, and I'd not be surprised if the superior damage output of Kasumi's shadow strike in comparison to Miranda's warp was more useful than the damage provided by Miranda's passives. I may not be the most informed person however, given that I almost solely play Vanguard and much of my experience has been with the Scimitar and the Eviscerator. +15% damage is always overkill with those weapons; I've never noticed it reducing the number of shotgun bursts that it takes to kill the target except on the bigger targets such as YMIR mechs and Scions. Perhaps +15% more damage is more noticeable with rapid fire weapons such as assault rifles or SMGs, I don't know. But as far as my experience goes, I've not noticed a difference. And as I said, I'd not be surprised to find that Thane's glitched incisor damage outclasses the bonus provided by Miranda regardless of your weapon choice, making him the better warp detonator. 

I do not consider Mordin to be as useful as Miranda or Samara. The usefulness of warp detonations can not be overstated. They provide substantial area damage, and they cause enemies to stumble (which is already useful, especially as a Vanguard) or even go flying (if the detonation removes defenses). So not only does the detonation do significant damage in of itself, but the effect that the detonation has on the foes grants you greater damage dealing flexibility by making it safer to remain out of cover. I'm sure many appreciate the damage that warp detonations do, but few seem to consider the free damage that causing enemies to stumble/go flying provides. 

Regardless, while Mordin can not open warp combos like Samara or close them like Miranda, Mordin is still useful on missions where foes do not frequently group up. Many state that cryo blast is useless on insanity, but given its short cooldown it really isn't. Your defense stripper > Mordin's cryo > squadmate defense stripper > Mordin's cryo (its cooldown is fairly short). On missions where warp detonations aren't going to hit a lot of targets because enemy grouping is infrequent, Mordin still grants you the ability to rapidly remove single targets from the equation through cryo blast. Mordin is also great for dealing with husks: Samara's area reave > Mordin's area cryo, or Mordin's incinerate > Samara's area pull. Plus his incinerate is highly useful on the bigger targets such as Scions, Praetorians, the Thresher Maw, the Human Reaper, etc., and it will quickly dispatch of groups of defense-stripped targets faster than any other ability. I make it a priority to have squadmates which can warp detonate by themselves whenever possible, but there are times when Mordin is simply more practical. 

C rank:
Jacob and Jack simply aren't that useful. They have pull, however, which sets them ahead of D rank. Jack has shockwave, which can be useful against husks and on Collector platforms if you or Samara have area reave. Jacob has inferno ammo, which can be useful if you don't have an ammo power. 

D rank:
D rank houses those who I feel offer little in the way of ability chaining, and lack anything to make them stand out despite this (such as Zaeed's incisor or Kasumi's shadow strike). Yes, Garrus has overload which can soften up targets for ability chains, and he has the incisor. The issue with Garrus is how horribly outclassed he is by Zaeed and Thane. They both wield the incisor with greater effectiveness given their +50% weapon damage abilities, Thane can participate in warp detonations, and while overload is more useful than inferno grenade Zaeed brings along a much more useful ammo power. The only time I find that Garrus is worth bringing along is on Geth missions. Garrus will outperform any other overloader thanks to the incisor. The issue is that double area overload melts groups of Geth damn near instantly, so you're really not going to notice Garrus' incisor in such cases. If Zaeed and Thane did not exist, Garrus' rank would skyrocket. But they do, and they make bringing Garrus a questionable choice. 

Grunt's charge kills husks instantly, and his inferno ammo can be helpful. This is not enough to pull him out of the bottom rank. As far as Legion and Tali are concerned, drones are helpful but not especially so. AI hacking is practically worthless and an area overload is a better choice 99% of the time. Tali would be higher if energy drain was a base ability but by the time you get it you're pretty much done with Geth. 

It should be noted that my list does possess and obvious problem. It's built under the assumption that if you're bringing a puller, then you're also bringing a warper in order to detonate. Naturally pullers are significantly less useful if they're not using pull to begin a biotic combo. Samara, Jack, and Jacob would all drop in usefulness if not paired with a warper. Miranda and Thane also suffer a blow if not paired with somebody to detonate off of, but not to any degree significant enough to change their tier placements. 

Modifié par Thresher Maw, 24 septembre 2010 - 06:05 .

[tonnactus]

lazuli wrote...

As for Dominate, it shields an opponent and makes them unpredictable.  Yeah, they'll attack their friends and be attacked by their friends.  But why mess around with that when you can just kill them? 

Because enemies concentrate their fire on the dominated enemy then,give you time to take them out without getting shoot back.Far better then reave.All to do is,enter  a combat,strip the shilds of the trooper,dominate him and you basicly won the fight.Especially good on insanity to take away pressure.Even harbinger concentrate his attacks on the dominated drone or maybee even fight on your side for short time if it take over a dominated one...

[tonnactus]

Thresher Maw wrote...

Miranda has access to area overload which is great for softening up targets and warp which allows her to end warp combos. It may seem odd to place Miranda in C rank given her passives, but honestly I never notice the difference that her passives make.

You are right.Miranda is completly overrated,but not many acknowledge that.Garrus is far better against shields thanks to his power damage bonuses. Mordin is unbeatable against armor.Kasumi with rapid shadowstrike is the good against all defenses. Samara is better as a barrier stripper because reave has an area version.Thane is equal with miranda regarding this,but had far higher weapon damage and could use sniper rifles.
Her only worth is that she is a walking weapon damage upgrade,but i never noticed a big difference.Not on insanity anyway.
And versatilty means nothing in a system with global cooldowns anyway.Its not like she could strip the shields of an enemy and then immediatly follow with a warp to damage armor...
She is just a jack of all trades but master of none.

Modifié par tonnactus, 24 septembre 2010 - 08:37 .

[Kronner]

The Incisor SR damage is not glitched (it has penalty for party damage output just like all other weapons), Eric ****nan posted it on these boards. Zaeed and Thane do so much damage because they score headshots very often with all three shots, they never run out of ammo and they get +50% weapon damage.

For Vanguard/Soldier I'd have these rankings:
A: Miranda, Samara, Thane, Zaeed
B: Garrus, Kasumi, Tali
C: Mordin, Legion, Grunt, Jacob
D: Jack

For other classes, I'd move Grunt and Jacob one tier up because of squad Inferno Ammo.

Modifié par Kronner, 24 septembre 2010 - 11:25 .

[Granville8]

If you are playing a soldier:



Miranda is a must, the damage bonus is too good. Add Heavy Warp and Heavy Slam and it gets ugly.



The second squad mate comes down to who is complimented the most with her around and my final answer is:



Thane.



He has a 50% Damage boost and he can use a sniper rifle that does not have the squad mate damage reduction penalty (The Incisor)



With Lair of the Shadow Broker you can re-spec Thane so he is no longer required to pick up a point of Shredder Ammo, which is horrid. This allows him to max out Throw to Heavy Throw and pick up Heavy Warp.



Heavy Warp + Miranda's Slam is devastating. But more important your squad has two people who can spam Warp.



Before I was using Zaeed with Miranda. He has a 50% damage boost and can use an Incisor as well. (And an assault rifle) He also can spec in Concussive Shot and Inferno Grenade. He's still a very close second pick. But with the opportunity to have Heavy Warp and Heavy Throw, I say the edge goes slightly to Thane now.



For Soldier and Vanguard classes, Ammo powers coming from squadies are irrelevant. I use Squad Cyro Ammo, put it on both of their weapons and leave it at that.



Inferno Ammo goes on my weapons.

[termokanden]

tonnactus wrote...

She is just a jack of all trades but master of none.

It's true that the buffs do not make a huge difference and you're probably never even going to notice it (still most buffs work like that and it all adds up). But just having a character that can destroy shields/barriers/armor AND one-shot husks is pretty good. Doesn't matter that she can't do it all at once, because she's useful against ALL enemies.

If you're facing only a specific type of enemy for a whole mission, then there are probably better squaddies than Miranda. But for a mix of enemies she's very useful.